Mordhau

Full agility builds will become an issue

23 15
  • 7 May
 Radix

Hi guys, recently joined.

I am an old crpg (M&B) player, this is where all this started, and I can already see the same pattern being quickly developed here. AGI builds will dominate, this is inherently a slasher issue, you already can see a naked rapier meta developing, in 1on1 this is unmatched and for a good reason, the defence trade is neglectable given that you can block about everything and speed only helps with that.

Its going to be even worse than in crpg imo, due to some certain factors not being present in mordhau.

  • Big weapons such as mauls dont stagger and break blocking
  • Low dmg weapons dont glance off of plates
  • Ranged damage is not punishing light armour due to regenerative hp

I feel that Mount and blade had a very good idea when it comes to melee balance and looking back at it could be a smart move

What do you guys think?

414 418
21 19

Speaking as someone who plays armor from across the spectrum in this game; I think it's really fairly balanced. I have an 8 armor build and a 1 armor build, both with entirely different purposes.

The 1 armor is for pushing and scrambling the enemy, it's a baseline berserker type. I am punished often for the lack of armor, thank the gods I have a shield.

My 8 armor build is for holding the line and protecting the objective, which gets by a lot. It's got plenty of merits and I have little problems fighting folks with knives if I am in a proper position where they can't just dance around me with two friends.

I havent played Mount and Blade so i can't really make the comparison here, but I get your concerns. I DO THINK that rapier and dagger could use a slight stab nerf and that some two-handers could do with more stamina drain but other than that... this game is really well balanced so far.

23 15
  • 7 May
 Radix

@TheLastPaladin said:
Speaking as someone who plays armor from across the spectrum in this game; I think it's really fairly balanced. I have an 8 armor build and a 1 armor build, both with entirely different purposes.

The 1 armor is for pushing and scrambling the enemy, it's a baseline berserker type. I am punished often for the lack of armor, thank the gods I have a shield.

My 8 armor build is for holding the line and protecting the objective, which gets by a lot. It's got plenty of merits and I have little problems fighting folks with knives if I am in a proper position where they can't just dance around me with two friends.

I havent played Mount and Blade so i can't really make the comparison here, but I get your concerns. I DO THINK that rapier and dagger could use a slight stab nerf and that some two-handers could do with more stamina drain but other than that... this game is really well balanced so far.

Trust me, once a player base settles and people get proficient you will start seeing very high level players and they will exploit AGI builds to their fullest potential, its always the way it happens, you can already see a taste of it with rapiers and short spears, if you go against a player that knows what he is doing you wont beat him if you are slower, and since amor does not protect from light weapons but only allows you to survive 2-3 hits more, it will become a balance issue.

Knight 334 777
  • 7 May
 AngelEyes

I think we need to give it more time.

90% of players are potatoes at the game and that definitely skews judgment. Noobs still feed ripostes like it’s nobodies business but it’s actually everyone’s business they just don’t understand how it all works yet.

It doesn’t mean they don’t get an opinion it just means they should let their opinion bake awhile before expressing it.

It’s probably safe to say Bloodlust perk is getting a pretty firm eyebrow right now as to its actual place in the game. But other than that things still need time.

23 15
  • 7 May
 Radix

@AngelEyes said:
I think we need to give it more time.

90% of players are potatoes at the game and that definitely skews judgment. Noobs still feed ripostes like it’s nobodies business but it’s actually everyone’s business they just don’t understand how it all works yet.

It doesn’t mean they don’t get an opinion it just means they should let their opinion bake awhile before expressing it.

It’s probably safe to say Bloodlust perk is getting a pretty firm eyebrow right now as to its actual place in the game. But other than that things still need time.

Thats true, but as a very dedicated crpg player I cant help but to notice certain repeating patterns

414 418
 nohbdy

Play full agility and get fucked by archers if you want. Even the recurve bow 2HKOs to the body and one shots to the head against no armor. Even if you luckily run to safety to regen you still get taken out of the battle then, not helping your team

23 15
  • 7 May
 Radix

@nohbdy said:
Play full agility and get fucked by archers if you want. Even the recurve bow 2HKOs to the body and one shots to the head against no armor. Even if you luckily run to safety to regen you still get taken out of the battle then, not helping your team

There is nothing easier than to kite as full agi build, regenerative HP is a huge buff to no armor meta too

414 418
 nohbdy

@Radix said:

@nohbdy said:
Play full agility and get fucked by archers if you want. Even the recurve bow 2HKOs to the body and one shots to the head against no armor. Even if you luckily run to safety to regen you still get taken out of the battle then, not helping your team

There is nothing easier than to kite as full agi build, regenerative HP is a huge buff to no armor meta too

Still gonna get shot. Getting shot by archers is just a part of life. Mind you I'm traumatized by my competitive chivalry background.

529 278

@Radix said:
Hi guys, recently joined.

I am an old crpg (M&B) player, this is where all this started, and I can already see the same pattern being quickly developed here. AGI builds will dominate, this is inherently a slasher issue, you already can see a naked rapier meta developing, in 1on1 this is unmatched and for a good reason, the defence trade is neglectable given that you can block about everything and speed only helps with that.

Its going to be even worse than in crpg imo, due to some certain factors not being present in mordhau.

  • Big weapons such as mauls dont stagger and break blocking
  • Low dmg weapons dont glance off of plates
  • Ranged damage is not punishing light armour due to regenerative hp

I feel that Mount and blade had a very good idea when it comes to melee balance and looking back at it could be a smart move

What do you guys think?

Those sound like good game mechanics. Forgot M&B had all that stuff.

23 15
  • 7 May
 Radix

@Christian2222 said:

@Radix said:
Hi guys, recently joined.

I am an old crpg (M&B) player, this is where all this started, and I can already see the same pattern being quickly developed here. AGI builds will dominate, this is inherently a slasher issue, you already can see a naked rapier meta developing, in 1on1 this is unmatched and for a good reason, the defence trade is neglectable given that you can block about everything and speed only helps with that.

Its going to be even worse than in crpg imo, due to some certain factors not being present in mordhau.

  • Big weapons such as mauls dont stagger and break blocking
  • Low dmg weapons dont glance off of plates
  • Ranged damage is not punishing light armour due to regenerative hp

I feel that Mount and blade had a very good idea when it comes to melee balance and looking back at it could be a smart move

What do you guys think?

Those sound like good game mechanics. Forgot M&B had all that stuff.

Yep thats my point, it would be smart to look back at Mount and blade, especially CRPG mod which was basically a grand-grand-grand dad of mordhau. This mod went few full meta cycles and much can be learned from it.

Other mechanics that should be mentioned is spear bracing and shield hp (which imo should be a no brainer).

Way more tanker plates and glance mechanic were good to the meta in the long run, they decreased AGI build dominance, made maces a viable choice at the same time giving players allergic to ranged damage a safe haven. Same goes for destructible shields, it gives axes reason to exist.

Knight 7577 13875

hello new player, these are some very cool new player opinions and we will all definitely take them into account

301 875
 Naleaus

@Radix said:

@nohbdy said:
Play full agility and get fucked by archers if you want. Even the recurve bow 2HKOs to the body and one shots to the head against no armor. Even if you luckily run to safety to regen you still get taken out of the battle then, not helping your team

There is nothing easier than to kite as full agi build, regenerative HP is a huge buff to no armor meta too

Can't regain health while sprinting, there's a chase mechanic that prevents constant running away. At high levels currently, the meta is and will mostly always be stronger long weapons.

23 15
  • 7 May
 Radix

@ToLazy4Name said:
hello new player, these are some very cool new player opinions and we will all definitely take them into account

Thank you, I am very excited for this game and hope to contribute as much as I can. I was there, when this genre was born (insert I was there 3,000 years ago meme) and I would love to see it evolve further

@Naleaus said:

@Radix said:

@nohbdy said:
Play full agility and get fucked by archers if you want. Even the recurve bow 2HKOs to the body and one shots to the head against no armor. Even if you luckily run to safety to regen you still get taken out of the battle then, not helping your team

There is nothing easier than to kite as full agi build, regenerative HP is a huge buff to no armor meta too

Can't regain health while sprinting, there's a chase mechanic that prevents constant running away. At high levels currently, the meta is and will mostly always be stronger long weapons.

Its still a comfy situation to be able to just stop for few seconds behind a wall opposed to be left with 20% hp for the rest of the encounter.

This is true, usually meta will branch out into two directions, heavy hitters and fast hitters, it tends to boil down to either one hit one kill or attack spam, if left unchecked anything in-between becomes redundant.

301 875
  • 7 May
 Naleaus

@Radix said:

@ToLazy4Name said:
hello new player, these are some very cool new player opinions and we will all definitely take them into account

Thank you, I am very excited for this game and hope to contribute as much as I can. I was there, when this genre was born (insert I was there 3,000 years ago meme) and I would love to see it evolve further

@Naleaus said:

@Radix said:

@nohbdy said:
Play full agility and get fucked by archers if you want. Even the recurve bow 2HKOs to the body and one shots to the head against no armor. Even if you luckily run to safety to regen you still get taken out of the battle then, not helping your team

There is nothing easier than to kite as full agi build, regenerative HP is a huge buff to no armor meta too

Can't regain health while sprinting, there's a chase mechanic that prevents constant running away. At high levels currently, the meta is and will mostly always be stronger long weapons.

Its still a comfy situation to be able to just stop for few seconds behind a wall opposed to be left with 20% hp for the rest of the encounter.

This is true, usually meta will branch out into two directions, heavy hitters and fast hitters, it tends to boil down to either one hit one kill or attack spam, if left unchecked anything in-between becomes redundant.

The reason it tends to go in the direction of 2h weapons in this game is a matter of mix-ups. At high level play, a fast weapon such as rapier doesn't have much in the way of mix-ups. It's fast, but stabs are easy to chamber and the slashes do little damage. Once you're able to read it's feints it loses its luster, and mixed with less stamina negation than 2hs, you will eventually stam out or take a hit.

2hs have the ability to perform greater mixups, thanks to better weapon timings and length. Take for instance the battleaxe. It's not the longest weapon, but it has an extremely fast stab, and a good draggable slash. The ability to go those speeds makes it a very strong and hard to read weapon, enough to where they nerfed it's stab a bit (only gets 5 stam back a bit instead of 10). Most 2hs can be accelerated pretty well regardless, just due to tracers and length.

For pubs, armor+bloodlust+knowing the game will suffice currently. Rapier kills new players pretty well though.

81 88
  • 7 May
 Xanith

i just went 74-10-18 in a game with about 4-5 "decent" (read: knows how to chamber, feint, footwork, etc) naked dodging rapier/zwei/spear turds, lemme tell you what works for me:

3/3/2 bardiche

if they're the type that likes to never get close, use the alt grip and play by their rules, if they fuck up you can take like 3-4 hits, if they fuck up ONCE they're one shotted,

if they close the distance or like to get in your face, use reg grip,, be aggressive and abuse your superior damage and range

i found a decent little trick that a surprising amount of them fall for:

parry, intentionally miss your stab riposte to the left, run into your stab so their block/chamber attempt misses, combo into a fat left to right horizontal strike, continue running into it while decelerating, by now they'll either try to punish you with another swing (if your footwork is right they'll miss and you'll get a clean decap), or put their shield up for a split second, then the last part of your decel will clip their noggin and send it flying

39 45
  • 7 May
 RyMarq

Full agility is probably the ideal dueling build under ideal conditions.

Even slight deterioration of those conditions will damage them, and they are very punishing when they make mistakes. In larger games, and under non-ideal conditions armor is very powerful - and in practice that means almost always.

529 278

@Naleaus said:

@Radix said:

@ToLazy4Name said:
hello new player, these are some very cool new player opinions and we will all definitely take them into account

Thank you, I am very excited for this game and hope to contribute as much as I can. I was there, when this genre was born (insert I was there 3,000 years ago meme) and I would love to see it evolve further

@Naleaus said:

@Radix said:

@nohbdy said:
Play full agility and get fucked by archers if you want. Even the recurve bow 2HKOs to the body and one shots to the head against no armor. Even if you luckily run to safety to regen you still get taken out of the battle then, not helping your team

There is nothing easier than to kite as full agi build, regenerative HP is a huge buff to no armor meta too

Can't regain health while sprinting, there's a chase mechanic that prevents constant running away. At high levels currently, the meta is and will mostly always be stronger long weapons.

Its still a comfy situation to be able to just stop for few seconds behind a wall opposed to be left with 20% hp for the rest of the encounter.

This is true, usually meta will branch out into two directions, heavy hitters and fast hitters, it tends to boil down to either one hit one kill or attack spam, if left unchecked anything in-between becomes redundant.

The reason it tends to go in the direction of 2h weapons in this game is a matter of mix-ups. At high level play, a fast weapon such as rapier doesn't have much in the way of mix-ups. It's fast, but stabs are easy to chamber and the slashes do little damage. Once you're able to read it's feints it loses its luster, and mixed with less stamina negation than 2hs, you will eventually stam out or take a hit.

2hs have the ability to perform greater mixups, thanks to better weapon timings and length. Take for instance the battleaxe. It's not the longest weapon, but it has an extremely fast stab, and a good draggable slash. The ability to go those speeds makes it a very strong and hard to read weapon, enough to where they nerfed it's stab a bit (only gets 5 stam back a bit instead of 10). Most 2hs can be accelerated pretty well regardless, just due to tracers and length.

For pubs, armor+bloodlust+knowing the game will suffice currently. Rapier kills new players pretty well though.

Thats because the game is more about tricking the guy into parrying than actually aiming around someones parry.

1339 1396

I have an idea! If you want a game that plays like M&B CRPG you could always play M&B CRPG.

25 41
  • 7 May
 machinegod

@Radix said:

you already can see a naked rapier meta developing, in 1on1 this is unmatched and for a good reason

this is not even true