Mordhau

How good is Rapier - Is it broken/overpowered?

777 1029

anything as spammable as the rapier shouldn't exist in a game that is supposed to be fun. Who cares about the numbers. Is it fun to fight against constantly for most players? No? Then change it.

Knight 917 2521
  • 8 May
 Pred

There are pings going both ways too (attacker and defender).

Mouse imput lag.

And there is an initial part of animation, who knows how long, that is simply undistinguishable from rest position.

414 418
  • 8 May
 nohbdy

@Pred said:

They are way different, one is action-reaction, the other is action->decision->reaction. The decision part is also very hard, that's why people often eat hits when trying to read feints, even from much slower weapons.

It's literally the same. You're deciding whether or not to click the mouse in response to visual stimuli or lack thereof in both cases

1 0

For me, it's literally broken. I finally decided that since I couldn't beat 'em, I'd join 'em. Except I don't spawn with the rapier. Bastard sword, falchion, fine.

But if I choose rapier? I spawn with just my heater shield and no weapon, forcing me to suicide and choose something else.

I'm also annoyed because Bastard sword thrust seems to just clip through enemies (or worse, get blocked by the wall they're standing in FRONT of).

Hit detection in this game is pretty wonky, and shields are nigh impossible to get around, forcing a kick. But if they just backpeddle, the kick misses and they get a free hit.

Knight 917 2521
  • 9 May
 Pred

@nohbdy said:

@Pred said:

They are way different, one is action-reaction, the other is action->decision->reaction. The decision part is also very hard, that's why people often eat hits when trying to read feints, even from much slower weapons.

It's literally the same. You're deciding whether or not to click the mouse in response to visual stimuli or lack thereof in both cases

No, after a thing happens you still have to analyze and decide if it's the thing that you were supposed to react to or not and the react or withold your reaction.

They would be the same if feints, morphs, and locational attacks didn't exist and you would be only reacting to a real attack every time.

Knight 34 30
  • 9 May
 Oatmate

Stab spam gamble is good game mechanic

Knight 917 2521
  • 9 May
 Pred

@nohbdy

I put together two scripts in Python where you can check how much difference there is in reaction time when you have to make a decision:

One here - https://pastebin.com/usLZb1t1. Just press enter when it says "ATTACK" and it will print out reaction time.

Another one here - https://pastebin.com/9Ru6sAAQ. It says "ATTACK" or "FEINT", only press enter when it says "ATTACK". If you pressed enter after it said "FEINT", restart the script as I was too lazy to put in a check for mistakes, and it will give wrong results from now on. Actually no, I wasn't lazy, this is an intended feature as punishment for falling for a feint.

On the basic one I'm getting ~280 when I don't screw up. On the other one getting under 400 is very hard and you will end up pressing enter when there was a feint. This will also often screw up your time in the next attack try, because you will take more time to decide.

104 69
  • 9 May
 urm

@Pred said:
@nohbdy

I put together two scripts in Python where you can check how much difference there is in reaction time when you have to make a decision:

One here - https://pastebin.com/usLZb1t1. Just press enter when it says "ATTACK" and it will print out reaction time.

Another one here - https://pastebin.com/9Ru6sAAQ. It says "ATTACK" or "FEINT", only press enter when it says "ATTACK". If you pressed enter after it said "FEINT", restart the script as I was too lazy to put in a check for mistakes, and it will give wrong results from now on. Actually no, I wasn't lazy, this is an intended feature as punishment for falling for a feint.

On the basic one I'm getting ~280 when I don't screw up. On the other one getting under 400 is very hard and you will end up pressing enter when there was a feint. This will also often screw up your time in the next attack try, because you will take more time to decide.

Weird, most people have around 200ms on the basic reaction time test. 280ms is pretty damn slow (like, slowest 15% on the planet slow)
Either way, while these numbers are interesting, they do not entirely represent the Mordhau case, as you also have sound, and humans react to sound much faster (100ms and below for the simple reaction test).

Knight 917 2521
  • 9 May
 Pred

@urm said:

@Pred said:
@nohbdy

I put together two scripts in Python where you can check how much difference there is in reaction time when you have to make a decision:

One here - https://pastebin.com/usLZb1t1. Just press enter when it says "ATTACK" and it will print out reaction time.

Another one here - https://pastebin.com/9Ru6sAAQ. It says "ATTACK" or "FEINT", only press enter when it says "ATTACK". If you pressed enter after it said "FEINT", restart the script as I was too lazy to put in a check for mistakes, and it will give wrong results from now on. Actually no, I wasn't lazy, this is an intended feature as punishment for falling for a feint.

On the basic one I'm getting ~280 when I don't screw up. On the other one getting under 400 is very hard and you will end up pressing enter when there was a feint. This will also often screw up your time in the next attack try, because you will take more time to decide.

Weird, most people have around 200ms on the basic reaction time test. 280ms is pretty damn slow (like, slowest 15% on the planet slow)

https://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/statistics

*Since this site was created, it's recorded over 81 million reaction time clicks.

The median reaction time is 273 milliseconds.

The average reaction time is 284 milliseconds.*

104 69
 urm

@Pred said:

@urm said:

@Pred said:
@nohbdy

I put together two scripts in Python where you can check how much difference there is in reaction time when you have to make a decision:

One here - https://pastebin.com/usLZb1t1. Just press enter when it says "ATTACK" and it will print out reaction time.

Another one here - https://pastebin.com/9Ru6sAAQ. It says "ATTACK" or "FEINT", only press enter when it says "ATTACK". If you pressed enter after it said "FEINT", restart the script as I was too lazy to put in a check for mistakes, and it will give wrong results from now on. Actually no, I wasn't lazy, this is an intended feature as punishment for falling for a feint.

On the basic one I'm getting ~280 when I don't screw up. On the other one getting under 400 is very hard and you will end up pressing enter when there was a feint. This will also often screw up your time in the next attack try, because you will take more time to decide.

Weird, most people have around 200ms on the basic reaction time test. 280ms is pretty damn slow (like, slowest 15% on the planet slow)

https://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/statistics

*Since this site was created, it's recorded over 81 million reaction time clicks.

The median reaction time is 273 milliseconds.

The average reaction time is 284 milliseconds.*

Hmm, I guess I remembered it wrong, my bad
Edit: and I can see why, this is what they have under the test itself: "The average (median) reaction time is 215 milliseconds, according to the data collected so far."

Sellsword 41 88
  • 9 May
 Xedrik

@Sektor said:

@doginclothes said:
Cswic is right. Rapier is fine, and it has counters. If you just turn accel an attack after a riposte its a pretty good shot at hitting someone who's just spamming away, and if they are using a shield, accel to feint to kick followed up by juicy over head. Once player base figures out there is more moves than just left click and right click they will be fine and stop complaining. Nerfing these weapons will just make them unusable and not worth playing.

No, sorry, you are wrong. Because there are ways to counter bullshit that does not make them any less bullshit. Rapier is a spam weapon that has no place in the gameplay of Mordhau, despite it being counterable. Its one of the fastest weapons, with huge damage output in team fights, invincible with the right skill if paired with a shield and arguably one of the most dominant in pressence due to how fast you can stab someone who is fighting someone else. You are dead wrong. All bullshit has counters, that does not mean they are balanced.

You're trying to argue with people who have several hundred+ hours in the alpha and understand the weapons/balancing more than anyone. Saying rapier is op because you can't defend against some stab spams is just ignorant. It's not difficult to counter at all. Chamber baiting a stab into a morphed slash drag usually gets most of the rapier noobs.

A lot of new players are so quick to call things OP because they die to them a lot. The fact of the matter is, besides maybe shields and some animation sets on a few weapons(mainly polearms), all of the weapons feel pretty balanced. They've had over a year to balance them.

Knight 1269 3804
  • 9 May
 Frise

@Xedrik said:
You're trying to argue with people who have several hundred+ hours in the alpha and understand the weapons/balancing more than anyone.

Pretty much every alpha player agrees that rapier is cancer and needs a redesign, even if it's not good in duels. Random stab spam should not be an encouraged strategy, and it will make a lot of players crutch on it and never learn the fundamentals of the game properly.

Sellsword 41 88
  • 9 May
 Xedrik

@Frise said:

@Xedrik said:
You're trying to argue with people who have several hundred+ hours in the alpha and understand the weapons/balancing more than anyone.

Pretty much every alpha player agrees that rapier is cancer and needs a redesign, even if it's not good in duels. Random stab spam should not be an encouraged strategy, and it will make a lot of players crutch on it and never learn the fundamentals of the game properly.

I think that last statement is more true for shields, which are the much bigger issue and much more gimmicky. People that just stab spam with rapier usually get countered quickly by even mildly competent players. I think it feels OP to most players right now because the game is so new still that they just haven't quite grasped how to counter that play style yet.

7 3

It's not even a medieval sword, but post medievel.
Might as well put light sabers.

101 171
 Sektor

@Xedrik said:

@Sektor said:

@doginclothes said:
Cswic is right. Rapier is fine, and it has counters. If you just turn accel an attack after a riposte its a pretty good shot at hitting someone who's just spamming away, and if they are using a shield, accel to feint to kick followed up by juicy over head. Once player base figures out there is more moves than just left click and right click they will be fine and stop complaining. Nerfing these weapons will just make them unusable and not worth playing.

No, sorry, you are wrong. Because there are ways to counter bullshit that does not make them any less bullshit. Rapier is a spam weapon that has no place in the gameplay of Mordhau, despite it being counterable. Its one of the fastest weapons, with huge damage output in team fights, invincible with the right skill if paired with a shield and arguably one of the most dominant in pressence due to how fast you can stab someone who is fighting someone else. You are dead wrong. All bullshit has counters, that does not mean they are balanced.

You're trying to argue with people who have several hundred+ hours in the alpha and understand the weapons/balancing more than anyone. Saying rapier is op because you can't defend against some stab spams is just ignorant. It's not difficult to counter at all. Chamber baiting a stab into a morphed slash drag usually gets most of the rapier noobs.

A lot of new players are so quick to call things OP because they die to them a lot. The fact of the matter is, besides maybe shields and some animation sets on a few weapons(mainly polearms), all of the weapons feel pretty balanced. They've had over a year to balance them.

Funny that you try to pass the ball to Alpha players by using it as an arguement against me, but I am an alpha tester myself from 2017. I do not have hundeds of hours in Alpha because I was coming and going due to the lack of content but I played alpha extensively for the whole month before the release. I put serious hours into it. Let me tell you, alpha players agree that rapier is overtuned. And that was in a duel/TDM environment where we tested the game with less than 50 people, where rapier did not really shine in duels but was annoying as fuck, and that is agreed by most, paired with a shield or team fights. I am not a new player and I destroy most newbies who spam stab ignoring chamber to morph but that does not mean that rapier is fine. Everybody who puts the arguement ''its fine just because you can counter it'' is a braindead person and misses the scope this game has long-term. Also, the fact that you say ''they've had over a year to balance them'' really is not valid at all. Most alpha players will agree on both the issues that are rapiers and shields. Especially shields that had multiple changes over the year but a middle ground cannot be found yet. Lastly, the biggest issue with spam stab weapons is not dueling but how dominant they are in Frontline. Especially paired with the shield, which is a defensive braindead tool that enables you to only hold one button and ignore opponent reading, complex moves and favour backpedalling which should not be a valid plan considering the game's philosophy is that offensive plays are superior to defensive ones. So in short, rapiers are overtuned, same as shields and the lack of disadvantages to backpedalling. If you want to make a weapon stab that much and in that fast rate, sure, but remove mechanics from it aswell. Scrolling up like up hell should not be in a game that wants to be skill-based to the point of having hardcore communities. Rapier's advantages are many and they are all braindead. From animation speed, to damage output and the ability to mixup attacks. Again, sorry, but you're wrong.

Furthermore, having rapiers in the state they are now makes most 1H weapons not worth playing. Arming sword, axe, 1H hammer, short sword are nowhere to be seen. Some archers use arming sword just for having a weapon to defend themselves but their numbers are rare. Every 1H weapon gets overshadowed by either bastard sword+shield or rapier+shield. Mace gets some spotlight but still rare in player-made classes, since it offers 2-hit kills but still short and slow. There is absolutely no reason to use anything from the above considering rapier and bastard sword will get the job done better. But bastard sword actually requires some mechanical skill and thinking, unlike rapier that is a call of duty level braindead weapon.

Lastly, rapier gets 0 disadvantage from range. The game has lunge speed when attacking, you literally cannot outplay it with weapons that actually require you to be very close range, which most of the time, happen to also be slower than swords like axe/eveningstar/maul etc. And you can also combine it with dodge, giving you much more survivability and mobility. Pair this with the natural latency of the servers and you can clearly stab 2 times in one of the foe's animation. The vocal minority who screams that rapier is fine is just those who use it or simply deny to see further because they can counter it. I can counter it and I tell you that it's shit. I guess its down to the devs as to what they want to do, but I dont expect it to stay as it is tbh.

Knight 7573 13872

Just chamber lmao

777 1029

I have yet to see a maul or a pole axe or even a halb top the boards, but every game there is a fucking toothpick or 2 up there. This should hint that something is wrong...

Knight 2227 4000
  • 9 May
 Runagate

@Derpsi Hurpsi said:
It's not even a medieval sword, but post medievel.
Might as well put light sabers.

Sabers such as the shashka have existed well during the late medieval period though.

96 128
  • 9 May
 Reapy

@nohbdy said:
A weapon's windup would have to be 250 ms or lower to be unreadable. Rapier's stab windup is 475 ms. The only problem with readability in this game mostly comes from the attack morph window, which at least according to Spook is only windup minus 150 ms, meaning you can morph late enough into the windup of either a stab or accelerated swing that the opponent can't use their reaction time to distinguish between a morph or regular attack. People don't usually morph that late into windup though because people don't like to waste any time, and a later morph will naturally take more time to execute. It's simply easier to morph late into windup when your weapon's windup is shorter though, but that doesn't mean the problem with the unreadable morphs is a problem with that weapon's particular windup. It's not a problem with animations either, as so many other people seem to think. The morph window (and possibly combo feint window) should just be more like windup - 200/250 ms

Lil bit off topic question here, so during windup its -115ms to morph, but you can still parry and feint up until release? I thought the timing felt tighter but couldn't tell if it was just me or not, or is it the same for parry and feinting as well?

15 7
  • 9 May
 123mop

@smellycathawk said:
I have yet to see a maul or a pole axe or even a halb top the boards, but every game there is a fucking toothpick or 2 up there. This should hint that something is wrong...

I usually play with a rapier or shortspear, sometimes other fast small weapons like arming sword or dagger. Last night I was fooling around with the polaxe and topped the scoreboard several rounds, probably scoring my best k/d and most kills yet. This is coming from hundreds of hours as chivalry archer and maa. So loads of experience with small fast weapons and movement and next to none with big weapons and slow armored loadouts.

The rapier isn't some magic win button, and the larger weapons are perfectly fine.