Mordhau

How good is Rapier - Is it broken/overpowered?

777 1029

Rapier seems balanced until it's paired with the brokenness that is a shield

101 171
  • 6 May
 Sektor

@Christian2222 said:

@Sektor said:

@Cswic said:
It is fine.

What isn't fine is seemingly every new player ignoring the part in the tutorial about ripostes and chambers.

Couple that with the fact that new players panic parry after being struck half the time and you have your explanation for why rapier, or any relatively fast weapon, is going to abuse them.

Literally pissing me self reading your post. Rapier is overtuned, same as shields and archery (which might be initially the limit and not archery itself in the end). And it's not that the people ignore ripostes and chambers. Is because they are overtuned. Simple as that.

The sad part is he has 800 likes to 200 posts =/ I hate when people can't even admit when a weapon is OP. They are a huge part of the problem when trying to balance games. But seeing how the rest of this community is, I guess it's easy to see why he is popular.

You always seem so salty and angry dude, take a chill pill. He has 800 likes because people like liked their points in previous threads. I see you running around a lot spitting venom for no reason on other people including how they play the game. Chill the fuck out. If something is in the game, no matter how abusable it is, people will use it. Its not an issue of people, its an issue of devs fixing it, which I am sure they will soon enough. Talking shit and making it personal wont lead anywhere.

Conscript 10 11

Cswic is right. Rapier is fine, and it has counters. If you just turn accel an attack after a riposte its a pretty good shot at hitting someone who's just spamming away, and if they are using a shield, accel to feint to kick followed up by juicy over head. Once player base figures out there is more moves than just left click and right click they will be fine and stop complaining. Nerfing these weapons will just make them unusable and not worth playing.

101 171
  • 6 May
 Sektor

@doginclothes said:
Cswic is right. Rapier is fine, and it has counters. If you just turn accel an attack after a riposte its a pretty good shot at hitting someone who's just spamming away, and if they are using a shield, accel to feint to kick followed up by juicy over head. Once player base figures out there is more moves than just left click and right click they will be fine and stop complaining. Nerfing these weapons will just make them unusable and not worth playing.

No, sorry, you are wrong. Because there are ways to counter bullshit that does not make them any less bullshit. Rapier is a spam weapon that has no place in the gameplay of Mordhau, despite it being counterable. Its one of the fastest weapons, with huge damage output in team fights, invincible with the right skill if paired with a shield and arguably one of the most dominant in pressence due to how fast you can stab someone who is fighting someone else. You are dead wrong. All bullshit has counters, that does not mean they are balanced.

2 1

@xMatic said:
Rapier is fun

This game is sooo god damn fun :D I need to take more breaks :D

Everything is so polished and fun. And when you die it isn't because of some stupid weapon or something...

... Rapier is really kinda overpowered xD...

Only shields, ranged weapons and chambers from weapons with similar speed can counter your stab spam :D ...

You said it yourself. The skill required to beat stab spam is ridiculous compared To the skill to just mash the scroll wheel. Rapier needs the nerfbat, hard.

Conscript 10 11

@Sektor said:

No, sorry, you are wrong. Because there are ways to counter bullshit that does not make them any less bullshit. Rapier is a spam weapon that has no place in the gameplay of Mordhau, despite it being counterable. Its one of the fastest weapons, with huge damage output in team fights, invincible with the right skill if paired with a shield and arguably one of the most dominant in pressence due to how fast you can stab someone who is fighting someone else. You are dead wrong. All bullshit has counters, that does not mean they are balanced.

I see what your point is, and agree that rapier stab spam is a low skill strat, but what im trying to explain is that it dosent matter because its a low skill counter against it. Everything has a counter bullshit or not, and everything that kills a play is not bullshit. Skill is what makes the game worth playing, and the only thing in Invincible in mordhau is Ren. The raiper is balanced because of its reach, just dance out of its range if its sheild paired. If i remember right in the alpha ciswic was the only raiper player i saw, because it just wasnt that good. It does high damage, but it has horrible reach, also the arming sword and short sword are several times faster with accel slashes. Sorry man i know it can be frustrating learning to counter something new that everyone is using, but come back to this post in 3 month when the skill base has increased. Youll rarely ever see them, and then the new meta will be messer/zwei drags and maul fients. Hope i helped you see some insight into raiper counters.

414 418
  • 8 May
 nohbdy

It's OP if you don't know how to parry, riposte, or chamber, sure

Knight 334 777

I think Sektor made it clear enough i think you just being smug now though.

Reach isn’t all that relevant in Mordhau, the lunge nerf helped yes,but still, saying a rapiers drawback is its distance then you are just playing against bot tier individuals.

Only new people are crying about it because they can’t beat it. The Bsword is next in line because it has some of the poorest telegraphs in this game (especially underhand) they just don’t know it yet.

Other than that for the most part animations are in a good spot and everything is readable. How is it unreasonable to ask the same from one or an unknown few amount of weapons.

Any player who even has a slight idea of what their doing will dome on rapier noobs in pugs because they don’t mixup that’s totally irrelevant. If you bring that up like it’s the reason even alpha players say it’s a problem, you by default forfeit the argument.

The biggest flaw in your post here is the whole thing is assumed in a 1v1 context. I would love to see you in a 1v2 against 2 semi competent players with a rapier on your 45 doing stab feint mixups.

Cswic used rapier the most and he also arguably used jump kick the most when that was a thing.

414 418
 nohbdy

Also, y'all really need to stop overstating the rapier's damage. It needs a hit to the head to 3 hit kill someone in 3 point armor with all stabs otherwise stab spam 4 hit kills, the stab always 3 hit kills 2 point armor even with 2 hits to the head, and the slash damage does dick which reduces the effectiveness of its morphs.

Knight 334 777
  • 8 May
 AngelEyes

@nohbdy said:
It's OP if you don't know how to parry, riposte, or chamber, sure

Exactly. That goes both ways though.

If I beat a potato with a rapier it was easy.

If I beat a Cswic with a rapier it’s because I guessed his stab mixups and got lucky.

Knight 2228 4004
  • 8 May
 Runagate

What the fuck are you doing posting the same thread 3 times during the same day?

The rapier has slightly too fast windups to be consistently readable. Other than that it's okay.

Knight 334 777
  • 8 May
 AngelEyes

@Runagate said:
The rapier has slightly too fast windups to be consistently readable. Other than that it's okay.

Why didn’t I just write that. Okay bye.

414 418
  • 8 May
 nohbdy

A weapon's windup would have to be 250 ms or lower to be unreadable. Rapier's stab windup is 475 ms. The only problem with readability in this game mostly comes from the attack morph window, which at least according to Spook is only windup minus 150 ms, meaning you can morph late enough into the windup of either a stab or accelerated swing that the opponent can't use their reaction time to distinguish between a morph or regular attack. People don't usually morph that late into windup though because people don't like to waste any time, and a later morph will naturally take more time to execute. It's simply easier to morph late into windup when your weapon's windup is shorter though, but that doesn't mean the problem with the unreadable morphs is a problem with that weapon's particular windup. It's not a problem with animations either, as so many other people seem to think. The morph window (and possibly combo feint window) should just be more like windup - 200/250 ms

Knight 917 2522
  • 8 May
 Pred

@nohbdy said:
A weapon's windup would have to be 250 ms or lower to be unreadable.

This would be true without latency and when attackers would stand still and attack staring right at you.

Doesn't work like that in practice, with ping playing a part and when you can hide most of your windup by looking down and to the side.

414 418
 nohbdy

You should be able to tell if someone's winding up their attack relative to their body regardless of which direction they're looking, unless there literally isn't any animation playing. Tricks like that only exploit an opponent's focus on reading only a weapon's motion relative to the background, which is a mistake. You're right about latency though, although even then you'd need like 225 ping (at which point you probably shouldn't even be playing on that server) for a 475 millisecond windup to be truly unreadable by itself.

Knight 917 2522
 Pred

@nohbdy said:
You should be able to tell if someone's winding up their attack relative to their body regardless of which direction they're looking

Well:

  1. Often it's not possible with 1h anims.

  2. You have to watch out and read for feints and morphs and morph feints. 250ms average human reaction time is based on a test when your screen flashes and there is only one action to do which is click as fast as possible, it doesn't apply to this scenario.

Also:

  1. I once watched in ultra slow-mo a mace riposte stab hidden by a shield and weapon was visible for exactly 100ms before dealing damage.
66 91
  • 8 May
 SoRoofless

The advice I’ve been hearing is to chamber the stab and morph into a slash.

414 418
 nohbdy

@Pred said:

@nohbdy said:
You should be able to tell if someone's winding up their attack relative to their body regardless of which direction they're looking

Well:

  1. Often it's not possible with 1h anims.

  2. You have to watch out and read for feints and morphs and morph feints. 250ms average human reaction time is based on a test when your screen flashes and there is only one action to do which is click as fast as possible, it doesn't apply to this scenario.

Yes, I've been addressing that context, and even in this context your only actions are A. click as fast as possible once you realize they're committing to an attack, and B. don't click when you realize they are not. The stimuli you're reacting to are different but your available responses are not much more complex than click when you see green and don't click when you see red. You do have to read drags as well, but all of this also applies to 2 handers (even more so with regard to drags).

Also:

  1. I once watched in ultra slow-mo a mace riposte stab hidden by a shield and weapon was visible for exactly 100ms before dealing damage.

Now adding a shield into the equation is something I haven't considered. If there isn't any other visual cue (such as the arm holding the shield swinging as well like it did in Chivalry iirc) for an attack's windup other than the weapon's motion itself then that's definitely a problem if you can cover it with a shield. There should definitely be more arm and shoulder movement in the animations if you can completely hide it behind your body as well.

Knight 917 2522
  • 8 May
 Pred

@nohbdy said:

@Pred said:

@nohbdy said:
You should be able to tell if someone's winding up their attack relative to their body regardless of which direction they're looking

Well:

  1. Often it's not possible with 1h anims.

  2. You have to watch out and read for feints and morphs and morph feints. 250ms average human reaction time is based on a test when your screen flashes and there is only one action to do which is click as fast as possible, it doesn't apply to this scenario.

Yes, I've been addressing that context, and even in this context your only actions are A. click as fast as possible once you realize they're committing to an attack, and B. don't click when you realize they are not. The stimuli you're reacting to are different but your available responses are not much more complex than click when you see green and don't click when you see red.

They are way different, one is action-reaction, the other is action->decision->reaction. The decision part is also very hard, that's why people often eat hits when trying to read feints, even from much slower weapons.

104 69
  • 8 May
 urm

@nohbdy said:
You should be able to tell if someone's winding up their attack relative to their body regardless of which direction they're looking, unless there literally isn't any animation playing. Tricks like that only exploit an opponent's focus on reading only a weapon's motion relative to the background, which is a mistake. You're right about latency though, although even then you'd need like 225 ping (at which point you probably shouldn't even be playing on that server) for a 475 millisecond windup to be truly unreadable by itself.

wait, that's certainly not a thing
475ms-150ms=325ms. You can realistically expect people to react in about 200ms, meaning a rapier morph is pretty much unreadable at 125 ping, and even at decent ping of 50ms you need to have almost perfect muscle memory to block it.