Mordhau

Is this really going to be the final state of combat?

988 6971
  • 13 Apr
 marox — Project Lead

@SherbershLemel said:
will chamber have more AP than parry or will they be the same

Not sure about chamber AP yet, the problem with chamber AP is that it doesn't fit well into this mechanic at all visually. For example, say we give 150ms of AP on the start of riposte, then the animation still makes sense. Now doing the same on chamber makes no sense. Chamber can occur really late, at which point the AP would just be an invisible forcefield. So right now probably no AP on chamber, at least not this way. Not sure what to do about it yet.

Knight 1269 3808
  • 1
  • 13 Apr
 Frise

What if, and hear me out on this one, you just tried it anyway and rolled a mini patch out with it. Isn't it better to actually see how a change plays out instead of speculating? It's the alpha, it's precisely the time to try dumb shit.

Knight 334 777
  • 13 Apr
 AngelEyes

@Humble Staff said:
And are patch notes coming along next build too?

PLEASE. I don’t want to report you Marox but I will.

Duke 2266 4009
  • 2
  • 13 Apr
 Huggles

@Bang said:
You could test a 600ms flat attack lockout instead of band-aid 1vX solutions. That "clunky" feeling is just bullshit - no one ever said chivalry felt clunky because of attack lockout, and how would you know anyways since we actually never testing it? The only thing I can foresee bringing Mordhau up to par with competitive chivalry teammodes is mod support atm since the devs won't actually test anything.

Several people have said chiv felt clunky because of attack lockout. People mention clunkiness and brokenness everytime chiv comes up in a topic.

Chiv itself is just a janky, clunky, broken mess.


Number 1 thing @marox devs can do to help with 1vx without destroying the excellent teamfighting the mechanics have for us so far is addressing how chambers function in general or in that scenario. The issue is chamber, not parry lockout.

Being able to chamber the 1 in 1vx is what allows people to just spam it and circle strafe and there is pretty much nothing you can do about it even if you are reading everything and in general are way better than the x.

If two people on a similar skill level than you are destroying you in 2v1, I don't think the game is broken. I think that is actually good for teamfights and healthy for the game. But when two people way below your skilllevel can just fuck u up cus they spam chamber and there really isn't anything you can do about it period, I think that sucks and takes away from the core philosophy of the game. It being unforgiving and taking skill.

111 131
  • 13 Apr
 Bang

@Huggles said:

@Bang said:
You could test a 600ms flat attack lockout instead of band-aid 1vX solutions. That "clunky" feeling is just bullshit - no one ever said chivalry felt clunky because of attack lockout, and how would you know anyways since we actually never testing it? The only thing I can foresee bringing Mordhau up to par with competitive chivalry teammodes is mod support atm since the devs won't actually test anything.

Several people have said chiv felt clunky because of attack lockout. People mention clunkiness and brokenness everytime chiv comes up in a topic.

Chiv itself is just a janky, clunky, broken mess.


Number 1 thing @marox devs can do to help with 1vx without destroying the excellent teamfighting the mechanics have for us so far is addressing how chambers function in general or in that scenario. The issue is chamber, not parry lockout.

Being able to chamber the 1 in 1vx is what allows people to just spam it and circle strafe and there is pretty much nothing you can do about it even if you are reading everything and in general are way better than the x.

If two people on a similar skill level than you are destroying you in 2v1, I don't think the game is broken. I think that is actually good for teamfights and healthy for the game. But when two people way below your skilllevel can just fuck u up cus they spam chamber and there really isn't anything you can do about it period, I think that sucks and takes away from the core philosophy of the game. It being unforgiving and taking skill.

Well, if you increase the parry lockout you can't chamber as often in those situations. The issue isn't chambering itself, it's the ability to chamber ripostes, which makes 1vX shit since you're constantly getting attacked. I'm not suggesting 1vX should be easy, but there should be much more potential for 1vX, since that's where the greatest skillgap typically lies in games of this sort.

Knight 1269 3808
  • 13 Apr
 Frise

A big issue with the current implemnatiom of chambers is that they are a justification for feints to be asbsurdly powerful. Even if chambers get protection, the stamina cost means ghat the 1 will always have to use it with caution while the X gets to crutch on it. So then the 1 has less access to the only thing that makes dealing with feints reasonable.

Chambers should go back to their old state of being a high risk situational defence; with accels now being reasonable, you can actually wait till release to react to an attack. The inability to do that was what made original chambers bad. But now chambers are just here to justify insane feints, which are a mechanic that will always be almost useless to the 1.

Duke 2266 4009
  • 1
  • 13 Apr
 Huggles

@Frise said:
A big issue with the current implemnatiom of chambers is that they are a justification for feints to be asbsurdly powerful. Even if chambers get protection, the stamina cost means ghat the 1 will always have to use it with caution while the X gets to crutch on it. So then the 1 has less access to the only thing that makes dealing with feints reasonable.

Chambers should go back to their old state of being a high risk situational defence; with accels now being reasonable, you can actually wait till release to react to an attack. The inability to do that was what made original chambers bad. But now chambers are just here to justify insane feints, which are a mechanic that will always be almost useless to the 1.

1vx isn't hard because of readability tho. They just cannot use many offensive options and get overwhelmed before they get a chance to make good plays. You can stay alive in 1vx just fine for a reasonably long amount of time if you are a superior player.

The issue is the x chambering to avoid reading the 1 entirely.

Also an fov thing. More vision would be rly nice

1158 1813

Make chambering harder or make parry lockout longer? Is there a middle of the road, best of both worlds approach because neither will feel too great.

A much longer parry lockout WILL feel bad. If it stops you inputting chambers then it's too long which is ironically how it's been proposed 1vX gets improved. A slightly longer parry lockout might be nice for nerfing outright gambles but it shouldn't inhibit the X from reading attacks and inputting chambers or going for long weapon stabs from range or back stabs/flanks.

As much as I love the current ease of chambering they should definitely get a bit harder as it's the best way to address chamber spamming by the X without things getting clunky. However, I don't think anything too drastic or zealous is necessary. Chambering should be a challenge for the X because attacks might target switch or drag into them or away from them but micro dragging is not something I want to see in duels.

Also, wouldn't it be nice of chambering got something of a reward in 1vX? AP would look all wrong but Chamber into chamber would be very nice. Chamber a slash and your morph from chamber then chambers another persons stab. Basically morph matching but because chambering is harder it's not as brainless as prevoius patches AND it still costs stamina. I honestly thought morph matching was the coolest thing in the game, especially in 1vX. Successful chamber into parry costing no stamina (in essence a double parry.) Going the caveman route with unflinchable chambers is an option though not necessarily one I want.

Knight 1269 3808
  • 13 Apr
 Frise

@Huggles said:
1vx isn't hard because of readability tho. They just cannot use many offensive options and get overwhelmed before they get a chance to make good plays.

That's my point. Easy chambers force the game's balance to revolve around unreadable feints. Feints are virtually useless for the 1, and the 1 can't abuse chambers like the X can. 1 doesn't get to use the main tactic the combat revolves around, yet has to hard-read that same offensive tactic which is designed to not be realistically hard-read, because ez-chambers would have no use otherwise.

Which is why the "We're not balancing around duels" thing baffles me. Feints are an awful mechanic to revolve the combat around if you're balancing around teamplay.

Original chambers also theoretically gave a superior player the ability to completely out-stam their opponent. Now we have the opposite; you need to pay stamina to defend against feints (stab feints at least), turning the tide even more against the 1.

The current implementation of chambers is a lazy, detrimental alternative to polishing their original implementation.

Duke 2266 4009
  • 13 Apr
 Huggles

@Frise said:

@Huggles said:
1vx isn't hard because of readability tho. They just cannot use many offensive options and get overwhelmed before they get a chance to make good plays.

That's my point. Easy chambers force the game's balance to revolve around unreadable feints. Feints are virtually useless for the 1, and the 1 can't abuse chambers like the X can. 1 doesn't get to use the main tactic the combat revolves around, yet has to hard-read that same offensive tactic which is designed to not be realistically hard-read, because ez-chambers would have no use otherwise.

Which is why the "We're not balancing around duels" thing baffles me. Feints are an awful mechanic to revolve the combat around if you're balancing around teamplay.

Original chambers also theoretically gave a superior player the ability to completely out-stam their opponent. Now we have the opposite; you need to pay stamina to defend against feints (stab feints at least), turning the tide even more against the 1.

The current implementation of chambers is a lazy, detrimental alternative to polishing their original implementation.

I wouldn't really be opposed to going back to old chamber honestly, particularly where teamplay is involved.

I always thought the main reason it was hated was because of dueler bois not liking how much original chamber invalidated lazy feints.

Knight 161 229
  • 1
  • 13 Apr
 Q

Frise, you bring up some interesting points with regard to chambers & 1vX scenarios.

I am still not sold on how easy they have become. Nor on the overall state of the combat; that we can agree on.

After our discussion last week about combos; I concluded that the issues that you also bring up with the combat are probably right. Nonetheless, I would still argue a case for better combos.

I would love to be able to offer some helpful suggestions with regard to chambers & 1vX. However I don't really chamber often, & am pretty bad at them. Although they are a pretty cool mechanic.

Do you think that simply making them harder would fix the problem? Or, that they are incompatible with 1vX situations? Or maybe introduce another mechanic to help remedy it (such as hyper armour after successful chamber, or something like that)?

Baron 1607 5105
  • 1
  • 14 Apr
 Lincs

@Runagate said:
tbh that is just gay

zIP it, hetero

Duke 5502 13139
  • 1
  • 16 Apr
 Jax — Community Manager

Making chambers significantly harder (decreasing the window) brings back the drag meta where everyone dragged the hell out of every attack to get around them, it led to pretty stale gameplay. Some small changes are coming AFAIK to the chamber window, and then a few 1vX changes that will make using chambers a bit more useful.

That being said the internal build definitely isn't final so some of these things can change before it's shipped.

EDIT: Chamber change (-25ms) happened last build.

Knight 1269 3808
  • 16 Apr
 Frise

@Jax said:
Making chambers significantly harder (decreasing the window) brings back the drag meta where everyone dragged the hell out of every attack to get around them, it led to pretty stale gameplay.

I already mentioned how this would not be as dramatic as it was back then and how it could be toned down. It wasn't an issue of chambers being a bad mechanic, it was an issue of them and the combat not being fine-tuned enough.

Baron 1607 5105
  • 17 Apr
 Lincs

@Frise said:

@ÐMontyleGueux said:
I couldn't disagree more. I feel like most weapons have their little something to differenciate them from the rest, especially with the alt modes giving more depth to each weapons.

They have alt-modes that instantly change their stats, ye. But the weapons all play out the same way. Battleaxe, eveningstar, poleaxe, longsword alt-grip, all of those are played the exact same way. Some are faster, deal more damage, etc... But they play out the same way and feel the same way. In Chiv the variation was huge and you could tell what kind of player someone was just by looking at their weapon. SoW? That guy spams feints. Messer? The dude loves spinning and gambling. Poleaxe? Better get ready for the hidden stab anims and overhead feints. Longsword? They can literally pull off any move in the game. Claymore? Lol you know how that plays out. Brandi? Mmmh yes get those long ass stab feints. Spear? Probably the same but more aggresive and with a higher mix of LMBs.

You don't get this in Mordhau because the weapons have differences, but don't really promote different playstyles. Hitstop, no-combo, alt-modes add a bit of variation but at the core, all weapons play out the same way.

Also, I can't believe you're actually trying to paint Chivalry's unbalanced and broken as hell weapons by describing the very things that people constantly complained about them for. "Ahh yeah I sure miss the days of insta-hit facestabs and invisible animations, people really had distinct playstyles based around those!"

Like jfc man, come on. Obviously Mordhau's weapons are gonna feel like they "play out the same way" in comparison, because none of them have such blatantly retarded and immediately visible issues and were designed with balance in mind.

Knight 1269 3808
  • 17 Apr
 Frise

Yes congrats you invalidated my whole point by mentioning the poleaxe stabs good job let's just conform with mediocre weapon variety

Knight 693 1593
  • 2
  • 17 Apr
 das

1vX stuff, both planned and suggestions. I've lost track of which ones are planned, but I figure it's nice to discuss thoughts onboth anyways.

  • The aforementioned AP at the start of ripostes, short enough that you'll want to PiP (parry into parry) staggered attacks, but long enough to be able to deflect near simultaneous attacks. Upon AP deflecting an attack, the riposte is now feintable (normally it is not) at no extra cost. Not sure what would feel best for AP window and post-AP-riposte-feint window. Riposte feint still nonexistent for duels because it is impossible to trigger the AP of a riposte in a 1v1 due to parry lockout.

  • Parry-into-parry (PiP), or parrying again within 350ms after first parry (impossible to achieve in 1v1), already costs no extra stamina.

  • Successful chamber into a successful FTP refunds some stamina.

  • Morph off a successful chamber has an AP. A successful AP deflection refunds some stamina.

PiP, Chamber-FTP, parry-during-kick-clash-recovery, parry-after-hit (e.g. you LMB through enemy and parry incoming attack), and parry-after-flinched (you parry an attack shortly after getting flinched, carving knife and friendly fire do not apply) activates new status, currently named easy parry but I like the sound of "revenge parry", lolrevengemechanic.

  • "Revenge parry" mechanics:

  • Has a sharper, higher pitched sound distinct from normal parrying and chambering.

  • Revenge ripostes can be feinted and morphed. Maintains other normal riposte properties: mini-AP, will/should unflinchable still be a thing?

  • Supposing you don't opt for an immediate riposte. Any attacks made within ~350ms after a revenge parry has a free chamber cost should you chamber with that attack.

  • Revenge riposte has a notably increased knockback on whoever parries it. Enemy chambers ignore knockback, be careful. Creates space on target of your choice if they opt to parry, and more space = more time.

  • Revenge riposte kicks are significantly faster. Normal riposte and chamber morphed kicks remain as they do now. Chamber-feint-W key-kick is already hard to read but doesn't do super damage + is very high risk due to the reach and whiff lag, so I don't think it needs to be buffed or nerfed since chamber into kick is possible in duels. I don't think I've ever been hit by riposte kick even when using short weapons like axes.

  • Hell, revenge kicks in general are now faster and can be comboed off of even if whiffed (albeit not without stam cost) and/or have less lag upon whiff. This applies to any non-morphed kick made within 350ms after activating revenge parry.

  • Make the stamina bar flash orange during the 350ms window after initial parry/getting flinched to activate revenge + violently pulsate orange during the 350ms revenge window so that players can literally see and learn/memorize the time.

  • Revenge parry activates mini-Rush, you gain a decent sudden burst in movement acceleration. Or instead a sudden overall movement boost that gradually fades over a 1.5s period, so lateral and backpedaling is affected too. Helps to position yourself, avoid sandwiches, and evade/generally outplay via movement. All the crazy ninja walljumping kickflipping nonsense in Mirage: AW was actually quite neat when it came to chasing and 1v2ing because of this, fights would take place across the arena like some dojo fight in Bruce Lee's diary entry.

Conscript 4562 6301
  • 17 Apr
 vanguard

@Huggles said:

@Frise said:

@Huggles said:
1vx isn't hard because of readability tho. They just cannot use many offensive options and get overwhelmed before they get a chance to make good plays.

That's my point. Easy chambers force the game's balance to revolve around unreadable feints. Feints are virtually useless for the 1, and the 1 can't abuse chambers like the X can. 1 doesn't get to use the main tactic the combat revolves around, yet has to hard-read that same offensive tactic which is designed to not be realistically hard-read, because ez-chambers would have no use otherwise.

Which is why the "We're not balancing around duels" thing baffles me. Feints are an awful mechanic to revolve the combat around if you're balancing around teamplay.

Original chambers also theoretically gave a superior player the ability to completely out-stam their opponent. Now we have the opposite; you need to pay stamina to defend against feints (stab feints at least), turning the tide even more against the 1.

The current implementation of chambers is a lazy, detrimental alternative to polishing their original implementation.

I wouldn't really be opposed to going back to old chamber honestly, particularly where teamplay is involved.

I always thought the main reason it was hated was because of dueler bois not liking how much original chamber invalidated lazy feints.

Personally I didn't liked it because it made highly subtle unreadable drags absolutely necessary to do all the time to avoid getting chambered.

Knight 1269 3808
  • 17 Apr
 Frise

@vanguard said:
Personally I didn't liked it because it made highly subtle unreadable drags absolutely necessary to do all the time to avoid getting chambered.

IF ONLY THAT POINT HAD BEEN DISCUSSED IN THIS SAME THREAD

68 117
  • 17 Apr
 conny

@Frise said:

@vanguard said:
Personally I didn't liked it because it made highly subtle unreadable drags absolutely necessary to do all the time to avoid getting chambered.

IF ONLY THAT POINT HAD BEEN DISCUSSED IN THIS SAME THREAD

Im so glad he brought it up:’)