Mordhau

Is this really going to be the final state of combat?

Knight 1269 3804
  • 1
  • 10 Apr
 Frise

Stab feints being arguably less readable than in Chiv, but justified by ez-mode chambers, so that the optimal way of playing is to attempt a chamber on every single stab? What is even the point of stabs anymore? Is that ideal or just lazy?

Shields being as dumb as they were in Chiv, with same non-solution Tornbanner implemented?

And then 1vX being a riposte-spam fest where the 1 is forced to just passively read these broken stab feints without being able to use the mechanic that makes them reasonable, chambers, because chambers still have no protection or use in 1vX. But hey, the 1 can trade hits. That should be enough to get over the fact that they can't use the main tactic the game is based around.

All weapons feel almost identical, while Chiv, for the shit show it was, had all weapons feel unique and reward different playstyles. Tornbanner pulled that off by accident. Yet in Mordhau, with mechanics intending to do just that, like no-combo weapons and no-flinch carving knife, weapon variety is miles worse.

Is this really what ya'll wanted Mordhau to be? Since you're saying that combat isn't a priority and you just wanna get Frontline out.

162 124

thought about making stabs have more release and slower velocity, but would be different variations for each weapon for a more unique attack for stabs. This would also give more freedom of movement with stabs in general, offering consistent z or s stabs,etc.

162 124

for 1vx and shield, not sure on how to innovate a way to make it better.

Knight 365 628
  • 10 Apr
 Snake Skin

I never really liked hyper armor but now that it's gone the game really feels alot worse now. I honestly dont see the purpose of trades, feinting is supposed to be a key mechanic of the game and you're adding another mechanic that deprives you of it? They only make 1vX more ridiculous and difficult regardless of your skill.
Same goes for unflinchables, except they're actually worse as they encourage gambling which goes against what the devs said wanted for the game.
I'm not sure how many others agree on this but chambers feel like little more than glorified ripostes, there's virtually no difference in terms of stamina preservation or attack speed, this on top of being locked to the direction it deflected makes it easy to read. And they dont seem to trigger consistently when the enemy isnt facing you directly however this could be fixed by changing the chamber trigger box from a 'cylinder' (which is roughly what I've interpreted it to be now) to a cone. They're unrewarding, not just from the huge chamber window but also it's underwhelming advantage.

162 124

maybe increase in agility for chambers, a stat buff? and i like that cylinder hitbox idea, might improve it

301 875
  • 2
  • 10 Apr
 Naleaus

Besides your title's hyperbole (you know balance updates won't stop after release), I'll go through a few things I know are either tentative, are in the pipeline or have been discussed.

Stabs:
Tentatively, stab animation update and possibly separate, slightly nerfed feint/morph windows for stabs are in the pipeline.

We've suggested to start with 25ms windup increase and 50ms feint window decrease. But changes are coming at some point so just gotta wait and see.

Shields:
I personally think they really require mechanic changes, and I assume marox is busy with other stuff. Either way, as long as they're not entirely OP or weak at release, it'll be ok for awhile.

1vX:
Tentative easy parry riposte buff in the pipeline, plus some other mechanics to help punish purposely missed attacks.

The easy parry one would be a buffed riposte (still up in air on specific buff, could be damage, speed, knockback, etc) after you do a parry into parry, riposte into parry or chamber into parry. This would help with your chamber desire as well.

Again, an actual mechanic change, so I assume will come when programmers can get to them.

Weapon variety:
I disagree partially with everything feeling the same. I think some categories/weapon types feel similar, which make sense to me. But an estoc doesn't feel like a battle axe which doesn't feel like a spear which doesn't feel like a warhammer.
And there are weapons like exec and maul which are played very differently from others. Plus blunt weapons having hitstop. Waraxe is also very fun with it's fast combos, which makes it feel different to battle axe.

I think some of the sameness comes from timings/releases not lasting forever like Chiv, and from using the procedural animations. Not much to be done about that though.

This isn't necessarily a defense, just my thoughts and what I have seen discussed. Balance wise the game is in probably the best spots it's been, so I'm happy mostly.

1058 1696

I don't like that we get scraps of what may or may not be coming from people who might be on the dev's inner circle. More specifically to deflect or play down combat complaints that have been made since day 1 of Alpha and will likely continue post-release.

Where is Jax?

Knight 1269 3804
  • 11 Apr
 Frise

"Just ok" isn't the standard of quality I imagined 2 years ago from a game made from former Chivalry veterans that experienced how shitty Tornbanner were at developing. I thought Mordhau was gonna be developed to be a great competitive game. Instead we're getting another big multiplayer medieval game with "ok" combat. Shields are crap? Well at least they're not broken, so it's ok. 1vX impossible? Eh, game's still balanced. Stabs are more unreadable than in Chiv? Eh just spam chambers and be forced to hard-read them if you're in 1vX.

Balance changes can happen post-release but major mechanic changes are unlikely. The 2 years of alpha was the time to do experimental mechanic changes.

301 875
  • 11 Apr
 Naleaus

@Frise said:
"Just ok" isn't the standard of quality I imagined 2 years ago from a game made from former Chivalry veterans that experienced how shitty Tornbanner were at developing. I thought Mordhau was gonna be developed to be a great competitive game. Instead we're getting another big multiplayer medieval game with "ok" combat. Shields are crap? Well at least they're not broken, so it's ok. 1vX impossible? Eh, game's still balanced. Stabs are more unreadable than in Chiv? Eh just spam chambers and be forced to hard-read them if you're in 1vX.

Balance changes can happen post-release but major mechanic changes are unlikely. The 2 years of alpha was the time to do experimental mechanic changes.

Ok so you're just going to not comment on coming changes and rewrite what you wrote the first time.

301 875
  • 11 Apr
 Naleaus

@Lionheart Chevalier said:
I don't like that we get scraps of what may or may not be coming from people who might be on the dev's inner circle. More specifically to deflect or play down combat complaints that have been made since day 1 of Alpha and will likely continue post-release.

Where is Jax?

You'd prefer Jax, who is for better or worse a company man to give you a spiel? All I did was post what I've seen discussed as far as changes and give my opinions. It's not limited to a specific inner circle of people.

I like the game and like the state it's in. There are things I want changed and I touched on some of them. If that's a problem, let me know and I'll attack your opinion.

68 117
  • 11 Apr
 conny

Good summary of mord-news, Naly. I apreciate it

Knight 1269 3804
  • 1
  • 11 Apr
 Frise

@Naleaus said:
Ok so you're just going to not comment on coming changes and rewrite what you wrote the first time.

Comment on some small suggested stab timing changes and a buff to easy parry that's "in the works"? Months ago Marox himself said they were experimenting with ways to make direction relevant, and then the only thing they came up with was increase stab release (the worst way to do so). Shield changes have supposedly been in the works for years too and they added kickstun, almost like an insult to everyone.

This "there's a solution coming up" thing is tired to shit and hasn't worked so far. Small balance changes and giving more buffs to 1vX won't solve any fundamental issues with the combat. Frontline was silently developed without testing it in the alpha and letting us provide feedback and it clearly didn't work.

Adding more buffs to the 1 in 1vX is a bandaid solution but it's better than nothing. However, if they are going to add those changes, they need to just get them out there, so that they can see how they play out, and then make changes. That's what the alpha is for. And with such little time before release and the rate at which the combat has been evolving lately, very little is going to be accomplished with the combat if they don't start experimenting.

301 875
  • 11 Apr
 Naleaus

@Frise said:

@Naleaus said:
Ok so you're just going to not comment on coming changes and rewrite what you wrote the first time.

Comment on some small suggested stab timing changes and a buff to easy parry that's "in the works"? Months ago Marox himself said they were experimenting with ways to make direction relevant, and then the only thing they came up with was increase stab release (the worst way to do so).

They also adjusted parry size/positioning. I've been able to waterfall again this patch again with varying degrees of success. Stab drags work pretty well for me. Stab itself doesn't need a lot of changes to make them readable. Increasing windup will help the instant feeling, decreasing feint windows will make reading easier. An animation change could negate the need for either or work in conjunction.

This "there's a solution coming up" thing is tired to shit and hasn't worked so far. Small balance changes and giving more buffs to 1vX won't solve any fundamental issues with the combat. Frontline was silently developed without testing it in the alpha and letting us provide feedback and it clearly didn't work.

Adding more buffs to the 1 in 1vX is a bandaid solution but it's better than nothing.

Any adjustments to 1vX will be a band aid. With base mechanics, 1vX will be hard as fuck. You can increase parry lockout, bandaid. HA, bandaid. Easy parry buff, band aid.

Chiv had huge fucking parries that let you crouch and lookup to the sky gods, who would answer your prayers by letting your ass parry for you, and reverses which enabled a nice circle around you as dangerous. Plus shit 2 frame animations. It's sort of broken base mechanics allowed stuff like that, while Mordhau's don't.

Also, I like teamfights at the moment compared to when we had HA. Still wish we got to test AP again though.

However, if they are going to add those changes, they need to just get them out there, so that they can see how they play out, and then make changes. That's what the alpha is for. And with such little time before release and the rate at which the combat has been evolving lately, very little is going to be accomplished with the combat if they don't start experimenting.

I agree, everyone has been waiting at this point. Unfortunately, balance/mechanic testing has been stuck behind content/engine updates, etc. I don't know the specific reasoning for it, but would have been nice to have separate experimental branch. I can't blame Crush for it, cause he's at the mercy of the other devs. Can blame him for animations though.

However, I don't think mechanic changes will stop after release. Balancing obviously will continue too. Maybe we can get a opt in test build after release.

I also like the game currently. Obviously it can be better, there's always things to be improved, but I'll be playing at release and enjoying it as is.

Knight 27 33

Make Mordhau great again..

1307 2875
  • 11 Apr
 Monsteri

stab.png

20 000 iq change to stab animations that makes accels harder to do and nerfs the range, and gives the windup/release transition a distinct tell

Knight 685 1851

@Frise said:
All weapons feel almost identical, while Chiv, for the shit show it was, had all weapons feel unique and reward different playstyles. Tornbanner pulled that off by accident. Yet in Mordhau, with mechanics intending to do just that, like no-combo weapons and no-flinch carving knife, weapon variety is miles worse.

I couldn't disagree more. I feel like most weapons have their little something to differenciate them from the rest, especially with the alt modes giving more depth to each weapons.

Knight 1269 3804
  • 11 Apr
 Frise

@ÐMontyleGueux said:
I couldn't disagree more. I feel like most weapons have their little something to differenciate them from the rest, especially with the alt modes giving more depth to each weapons.

They have alt-modes that instantly change their stats, ye. But the weapons all play out the same way. Battleaxe, eveningstar, poleaxe, longsword alt-grip, all of those are played the exact same way. Some are faster, deal more damage, etc... But they play out the same way and feel the same way. In Chiv the variation was huge and you could tell what kind of player someone was just by looking at their weapon. SoW? That guy spams feints. Messer? The dude loves spinning and gambling. Poleaxe? Better get ready for the hidden stab anims and overhead feints. Longsword? They can literally pull off any move in the game. Claymore? Lol you know how that plays out. Brandi? Mmmh yes get those long ass stab feints. Spear? Probably the same but more aggresive and with a higher mix of LMBs.

You don't get this in Mordhau because the weapons have differences, but don't really promote different playstyles. Hitstop, no-combo, alt-modes add a bit of variation but at the core, all weapons play out the same way.

Conscript 183 471
  • 11 Apr
 Shovonem

Might be irrelevant for the topic but having some kind of spacial 1 v X mechanic that is based on chamber would be nice. Since chamber is the hardest mechanic to pull off if you think about the basic offensive moves like feinting, morphing. It's not THAT hard but still riposte got buffed with hyper armor and stuff. Riposte is easier pull off. Not to mention chambering can counter missing by X which is quite cheesy. Chamber can lead to more powerful offensive mix up as well. More skill based moves should be more rewarding imo.

Duke 5473 13074
  • 11 Apr
 Jax — Community Manager

@Lionheart Chevalier said:
I don't like that we get scraps of what may or may not be coming from people who might be on the dev's inner circle. More specifically to deflect or play down combat complaints that have been made since day 1 of Alpha and will likely continue post-release.

Where is Jax?

I don't usually respond with specific balance changes like "oh 25ms feint nerf" or stuff like that because if it changes before a build goes live everybody gets mad at me

We're looking at 1vX improvements and some other general tweaks to improve things, but like I said I'm not going to go into specifics here.

Also Frise if you play the paxe like you do a baxe something is wrong with you lol

Knight 1269 3804
  • 11 Apr
 Frise

@Jax said:
We're looking at 1vX improvements and some other general tweaks to improve things, but like I said I'm not going to go into specifics here.

You said this exact bullshit with the shields issue, and then we got kick-stun. So yea, this means nothing.