Mordhau

Same side combos

37 117

I know i'm not the first person to suggest same side combos, but i think i have one important aspect to add. And that aspect is feeling of freedom in combat. Adding same side combos would in my opinion add to the feeling that you are actually more in control of your attacks.

Currently everytime you combo, you can only do it from the opposite side, which imo feels restricting. A lot of people probably think that it doesn't change a lot, and it definitely doesn't revolutionaise the way the game is played. BUT it does make the game FEEL like it has more control over attacks, which is probably more important than alot of people realise, afterall combat can be as balanced and skillbased as you make it, but the actual feel of the combat really makes a difference how enjoyable it is.

Imo more feeling of freedom is better in this game, and that is the biggest reason i want same side combos.

Pros of same side combos:
-Adds to the perceived feel of freedom
-can very slightly buff 1vX

Cons:
-New animations need to be made
-Possible problems with animation blending

E: check first comment for poll

Duchess 6836 9763
  • 3 Apr
 Sir Zombie
same side combos
Knight 2088 3761
  • 3 Apr
 Runagate

They should be added tbh. It would increase options in 1vX and generally make things more interesting. The current limitation feels really arbitrary anyway. Anims would obviously need to be good though.

1298 2867
  • 3 Apr
 Monsteri

They would be a nice addition for when devs have the time.

Mercenary 218 541
  • 3 Apr
 Izıl

@Monsteri said:
They would be a nice addition for when devs have the time.

for sure!

37 117

@Monsteri said:
They would be a nice addition for when devs have the time.

Yes, i'm not expecting for them to be added before release by any means. Its something that can very well be added even months after release.

By the way it would be nice to get some dev input on this, if this is something they are already thinking about/already in the works, or if there are some technical reasons why its not possible or harder than i would think.

129 281

must we make a separate kickstarter campaign just for same side combos :(

remember when chivalry had that patch which introduced alternate attacks, that was like one of the most revolutionary patches the game ever had. Same side comboing is a big game changer for mordh

Knight 161 224
 Q

Combos (in general) make the combat feel more fluid. They are like the glue that bind the rest together.

I have been trying to put my finger on why the combat feels a bit clunky since day one. Although we have seen considerable improvements on that front since then (e.g. parry rework), it still felt underwhelming, especially team fights (not to mention 1vX). Despite the dev team doing a fantastic job on what was already in place.

Eventually I come to the realisation that it was combos, or lack thereof.

I was like damn... everyone is harping on about feints, drags, milliseconds, AP, HA, etc... (which are all really important) but everyone is forgetting about combos, & how awesome they are. Or, at least were in Chiv. You could pull off some high level Bruce Lee shit (especially in team fights) with them.

Currently, Mordhau devolves into a technical (opposed to organic) game after only several hundred hours. It reminds me a bit of a Mercs 1.995 SoW Knight duel, where every attack is a feint. I think that the reason for this (in Mordhau) is because the core combat is underpowered compared to more technical moves such as feints, morphs, & chambers. So why wouldn't you fight like that? It is the meta.

The thing that made Chiv have such a high skill ceiling is that it was organic & creative, opposed to overly technical (like a beat 'em up). I used to joke that Chiv 5 would have quick time events, the way the video-game industry is heading. Mordhau already feels half way there. I would go so far as to say that Chivalry still has a higher skill ceiling than Mordhau.

To me, things like hyper armour, are just a band-aid to a problem that shouldn't really exist in the first place. If the skill-ceiling is high, 1vX shouldn't really be an issue. As a general rule of thumb, it should make it more viable, if anything.

Knight 1227 3652
  • 3 Apr
 Frise

@Q said:
Combos (in general) make the combat feel more fluid.

Yea.

They are like the glue that bind the rest together.

The game works fine with hit-stop weapons though.

I have been trying to put my finger on why the combat feels a bit clunky since day one.

Does it feel clunky in general or only when comboing?

Eventually I come to the realisation that it was combos, or lack thereof.

Probably the biggest reach in history.

I was like damn... everyone is harping on about feints, drags, milliseconds, AP, HA, etc... (which are all really important) but everyone is forgetting about combos

Because they are not the issue? Because feints, drags, timings, AP and HA are what matter in the combat? Because changing those things has an actual impact on the combat? Maybe?

Currently, Mordhau devolves into a technical (opposed to organic) game after only several hundred hours. It reminds me a bit of a Mercs 1.995 SoW Knight duel, where every attack is a feint. I think that the reason for this (in Mordhau) is because the core combat is underpowered

Same-side combos would have no impact on this, because same-side combos wouldn't make offense stronger in the slightest.

The thing that made Chiv have such a high skill ceiling is that it was organic & creative

In Chivalry the meta was feinting and doing the occasional delay drag or reverse. At a high level nobody even bothered with alt-attacks, and same-side comboing did not increase the skill ceiling in the least. The meta was the least creative thing in the world. Jetstream managed to be high-tier by mostly doing side-stabs and waterfalls, but he was 1 in a thousand and same-side combos were not relevant in any way to that.

Same-side combos should ideally be in the game, for sure. But you're being completely delusional by claiming that they would have this much impact in the combat. Just tell me, you're in a 1v1, you get a hit and you same-side combo, what do you do with that to get another hit in? Your answer is going to be to feint, morph, delay, or accel. And if your answer is not that, then you're not gonna get that hit against any decent player.

Knight 161 224
  • 4 Apr
 Q

Frise, although combos in general are still very important in a 1v1, they are more so in team fights when surrounded my multiple team mates & enemies. Being locked to only combo from the other side is so predictable, & hardly poses a threat. Plus slows down the gameplay.

Forget 1v1, high level play to me is taking out half of the enemy team, or winning a 1vX. Being a good team fighter is more skillfull than a duelist.

With regard to no one using alt-attacks in Chiv. If that is true, then it is their loss imo. As I have all of the alt-attacks bound to dedicated mouse buttons, & use them all the time to good effect. For example, if there was an enemy to my left hand side, I would alt-slash. Which seems to make perfectly logical sense to me. Saying that it is not relevant at high level maybe shows your own lack of understanding of the dynamics of team fights.

Knight 1227 3652
  • 4 Apr
 Frise

Ah yes, you must know more about the game than the best players in the world.

The only instance where same-side combos are useful is to hit someone on your side, and again, it's such a minute difference that claiming that it's more important than refining feints, drags, timings and HA is the most moronic thing I have ever read on these forums.

Knight 161 224
  • 4 Apr
 Q

I am not saying I am the best player in the world, nor do I think you need to be to offer critique. I do have 4K hours between Chiv & Mord though, so take that for what it is worth.

If you are surrounded by foes, in a game where the difference between life/death can be in the ms. If you need to strike an enemy to your left directly after a overhead, then it does make a difference; high level, or not.

Knight 1227 3652
 Frise

And do you think that that specific scenario is in any wear nearly as relevant as all the other issues the combat has? Do you think it would raise the skill ceiling in a significant way? Are you honestly going to claim that it is the one thing that would fix the combat? Do you think that with release just around the corner this is something worth putting resources into?

301 874
 Naleaus

@Q said:
Frise, although combos in general are still very important in a 1v1, they are more so in team fights when surrounded my multiple team mates & enemies. Being locked to only combo from the other side is so predictable, & hardly poses a threat. Plus slows down the gameplay.

Forget 1v1, high level play to me is taking out half of the enemy team, or winning a 1vX. Being a good team fighter is more skillfull than a duelist.

With regard to no one using alt-attacks in Chiv. If that is true, then it is their loss imo. As I have all of the alt-attacks bound to dedicated mouse buttons, & use them all the time to good effect. For example, if there was an enemy to my left hand side, I would alt-slash. Which seems to make perfectly logical sense to me. Saying that it is not relevant at high level maybe shows your own lack of understanding of the dynamics of team fights.

If you land your first hit, you can just use the shortened recovery on not comboing to attack again from the side, which has the added benefit of opening up morphs without feinting as well. Weapons with hit stop have to do this anyway unless they kill.

In all your examples, you never state how your same side combo actually lands a hit. In your hypothetical world, do people just not parry or are you talking about fighting shit players?

Edit: They can add them, doesn't matter, but it's not a big deal nor would it fix 1vX in the least. Justifying it for that reason is just preposterous.

Knight 161 224
  • 4 Apr
 Q

@Frise said:
And do you think that that specific scenario is in any wear nearly as relevant as all the other issues the combat has? Do you think it would raise the skill ceiling in a significant way? Are you honestly going to claim that it is the one thing that would fix the combat?

Are there other issues? Surely. Do I think that it will magically fix them all? No. Do I think they are the single best way to improve the combat, & gameplay. Yes.

Knight 161 224
 Q

@Naleaus said:
If you land your first hit, you can just use the shortened recovery on not comboing to attack again from the side, which has the added benefit of opening up morphs without feinting as well. Weapons with hit stop have to do this anyway unless they kill.

In all your examples, you never state how your same side combo actually lands a hit. In your hypothetical world, do people just not parry or are you talking about fighting shit players?

Edit: They can add them, doesn't matter, but it's not a big deal nor would it fix 1vX in the least. Justifying it for that reason is just preposterous.

Yeah but shortened recovery just isn't the same. It is not fluid, & also requires two button presses. Better than nothing though, I suppose.

In my hypothetical world; I was using basic examples, so they would be easy to understand in writing form.

301 874
 Naleaus

@Q said:

@Naleaus said:
If you land your first hit, you can just use the shortened recovery on not comboing to attack again from the side, which has the added benefit of opening up morphs without feinting as well. Weapons with hit stop have to do this anyway unless they kill.

In all your examples, you never state how your same side combo actually lands a hit. In your hypothetical world, do people just not parry or are you talking about fighting shit players?

Edit: They can add them, doesn't matter, but it's not a big deal nor would it fix 1vX in the least. Justifying it for that reason is just preposterous.

Yeah but shortened recovery just isn't the same. It is not fluid, & also requires two button presses. Better than nothing though, I suppose.

In my hypothetical world; I was using basic examples, so they would be easy to understand in writing form.

How does shortened recovery require two button presses? One button for first attack, one button for second. You just don't combo. It's the same amount as a normal combo.

When justifying a mechanic and specifically saying it will fix an issue, vague examples that don't happen in real situations do not help your position.

Mercenary 218 541
  • 4 Apr
 Izıl

I always found arguing against same side combos retarded, does it matter if its implemented? Sounds like ur argumenting against just to argue. More combo freedom doesnt hurt the game, it enriches it.

301 874
 Naleaus

@Izıl said:
I always found arguing against same side combos retarded, does it matter if its implemented? Sounds like ur argumenting against just to argue. More combo freedom doesnt hurt the game, it enriches it.

Cause it's not a current priority and shouldn't be treated like it's an issue. It's nice, but it doesn't matter if it's implemented. Add it later after 1vX mechanic, balancing, making current animations better, shield changes, releasing the game, etc.

The person I replied to made it seem like this is the fix for everything, and it's the only reason I replied.