Mordhau

Shields = useless

Knight 467 911
  • 16 Mar
 wierHL

Btw can someone tell me how the parry/block exactly works and how big the parrybox is on current version (or patch 20). I wanna help think about rebalancing shield but I haven't been fully up to date with current parry/block mechanics.

Knight 108 140

@Reapy said:
So playing m&b in a pub server you really were required to have a shield out, even if you wanted to just do melee, otherwise you were half dead before you even got up close. In competitive you just can't use 2h swords at all because you'll be dead in half a second.

Sadly, this isn't the case here. Archers have high damage against each other, thanks to the Huntsman perk, but low damage against plate. This leads to archers mainly shooting at other archers and leaving melee alone, aside of accident shots or having no other target at sight.

If the developers wanted to fix this, they would give a perk equal to Huntsman, but against plate-users. Call it "Bodkin", giving a hefty damage increase against plate. This would allow archers to choose their targets. Now the "choice" is between 1) do shit damage on melee, or 2) do awesome damage on other archers. HMM, WHICH WOULD I CHOOSE?

1090 1722

@JasonBourne said:

@Lionheart Chevalier said:
Shields don't really have a role. They're not good at blocking hallways, chokepoints or 1vX since they stam out quickly and come down when hit, they aren't good at dueling since it takes little IQ to stam out a shield user, I can be winning a duel with full health but I've lost the minute I get morph/feint to kicked, ftp, miss or double block a gamble... They're not good for learning the game because it simply lets anyone spam the shield to win and they're clunky. Shields are so incredibly weak to kicks, you can raise it when feinted, see your opponent switching to a kick but can't move away or counter kick because of raise/lower delay plus ping.

Shields aren't even good at blocking projectiles. They're ok at everything but worse than 2h or even 1h alone in most scenarios, especially where decent opponents are concerned.

They're clunky and not fun to use or fight against and clearly this is the issue. Telling people who complain about current shields being pointless that they're smoking something funny is not constructive and turned this into a shit fest. Do not go into semantics with me because you refuse to rub two braincells together and kick a shield user or run away from 1h.

Provide video. Duel some shielders and post here.

Shields are blocking melee like a wall, but cannot properly block trowables. Its a broken mechanic atm..

The fact that no one uses shields anymore is proof enough.

There are no more shielders to fight in NA, I'm the only one left who occasionally pulls it out in earnest besides noobies who quickly switch to something else. Saul goodman sometimes tries mace/kite but I can spam him or stam him ez and he rarely uses it longer than a life or two in general... and he's a much better player than I am.

I want to see raise/lower delays removed and a smaller/accurate parry box for shields along with higher stam negation but for maybe Targe/buckler. I would also like to see shield-drop on hit removed altogether along with parry drop on hit while we're at it. This opens them up to dragging in duels while allowing kite/heater to 1vX effectively without stamming out and allowing them to react to opponents. With shield-drop on hit gone, shields can block a doorway/chokepoint, take a side hit or leg hit and won't come down and doom the shield user to 50 simultaneous front hits. Stamina negation also encourages chambering attempts since stam isn't everything and thus, opens them up to mischambering and eating hits that way in duels. Feint/morph to kick may still be effective but it's not a guaranteed hit due to raise/lower delays and certainly doesn't guarantee an end to the duel since stamina is no longer everything.

Because shields are stuck with 1h that don't do much stamina damage, giving shields stamina buffs won't give them a stamina edge since 2h still does the most stam damage and 1h will have a hard time forcing stamina advantage without forcing misses (requiring some skill.) We now encourage beginners to learn to parry accurately, try chambering, read drags and to footwork attacks instead of turtling until they lose their shield. Big shields are decent at dueling but shine in 1vX due to parry size, stamina negation and are basically a direct upgrade to 1h... small shields shine best in duels or last resort scenarios and are more about style preference than direct 1h upgrade.

No need for new shield mechanics or anything absurd, basically just tweak shield stats to where their usefulness depends on the talent of the user. What do you think of those ideas Jason?

96 128
  • 16 Mar
 Reapy

@ǀǁǂÐƦ₳ƓƟƝƁƟƦƝǂǁǀ said:

@Reapy said:
So playing m&b in a pub server you really were required to have a shield out, even if you wanted to just do melee, otherwise you were half dead before you even got up close. In competitive you just can't use 2h swords at all because you'll be dead in half a second.

Sadly, this isn't the case here. Archers have high damage against each other, thanks to the Huntsman perk, but low damage against plate. This leads to archers mainly shooting at other archers and leaving melee alone, aside of accident shots or having no other target at sight.

If the developers wanted to fix this, they would give a perk equal to Huntsman, but against plate-users. Call it "Bodkin", giving a hefty damage increase against plate. This would allow archers to choose their targets. Now the "choice" is between 1) do shit damage on melee, or 2) do awesome damage on other archers. HMM, WHICH WOULD I CHOOSE?

Interesting, thank you! To be honest I think I like that better as when getting into a melee game I want to melee and be open to use different things besides a 1h and shield set up. I like the idea of arrows being situational so maybe things like making ballista users vulnerable to archer fire or other things like that. Obv wont have any good suggestions here till I get back to playing more but yeah, nice. Thank you for clearing that up!

Knight 3295 6739
  • 3
  • 16 Mar
 Bodkin

@Reapy said:

@ǀǁǂÐƦ₳ƓƟƝƁƟƦƝǂǁǀ said:

@Reapy said:
So playing m&b in a pub server you really were required to have a shield out, even if you wanted to just do melee, otherwise you were half dead before you even got up close. In competitive you just can't use 2h swords at all because you'll be dead in half a second.

Sadly, this isn't the case here. Archers have high damage against each other, thanks to the Huntsman perk, but low damage against plate. This leads to archers mainly shooting at other archers and leaving melee alone, aside of accident shots or having no other target at sight.

If the developers wanted to fix this, they would give a perk equal to Huntsman, but against plate-users. Call it "Bodkin", giving a hefty damage increase against plate. This would allow archers to choose their targets. Now the "choice" is between 1) do shit damage on melee, or 2) do awesome damage on other archers. HMM, WHICH WOULD I CHOOSE?

Interesting, thank you! To be honest I think I like that better as when getting into a melee game I want to melee and be open to use different things besides a 1h and shield set up. I like the idea of arrows being situational so maybe things like making ballista users vulnerable to archer fire or other things like that. Obv wont have any good suggestions here till I get back to playing more but yeah, nice. Thank you for clearing that up!

Archers can kill melee just fine, there's not pentration values where sometimes you get 1 shot and others you survive 20 hits.

Longbow does 25dmg to t3 torso, but high headshot dmg and is difficult to shoot quickly without practice due to its sway. The weaker and faster recurve does far less dmg (15dmg to t3 torso) but is cheaper to equip where the archer can be more prepared for melee engagement.

The Huntsman perk exists to allow archers to reliably kill each other so that they can help their melee without worrying about getting shot. In most games the archers will take a hit and regen their HP back to full by hiding so you never actually kill him. Huntsman perk helps alleviate this issue.

Also assuming someone is bad at fighting just because they have a bow is not going to work out very well in this game. The better archers can kick your ass no problem if you underestimate. Obviously a noob playing archer is A) not going to land very many hits but B) also going to be a pushover in melee

But yeah archers are good at what they do in this game, make no mistake. Dragonborn must not be landing enough hits. But do realize there's more you can do to deal with archers in this game than most. If you time your parries you can block arrows, the dmg is overall lower without good accurate headshots, can throw smoke, hp on kill, bring hp regen perks / bandages / medkits to negate the dmg you do take in an instant, etc.

Ofc you can also bring a shield or pavise as well.

On a side note, in Mordhau you don't spawn in on horses. You have to get them from spawn or the map like battlefield vehicles, so they are supposed to be strong by rarity alone and a noob can't just spawn in with horse and lance like this is M&B

Knight 108 140

@Bodkin said:
Longbow does 25dmg to t3 torso, but high headshot dmg and is difficult to shoot quickly without practice due to its sway. The weaker and faster recurve does far less dmg (15dmg to t3 torso) but is cheaper to equip where the archer can be more prepared for melee engagement.
Dragonborn must not be landing enough hits.

Somehow you people always have to make it a "l2p" issue. No, it's not about "landing enough hits". Its the simple amount of hits required. Statistically, we can't expect to score headshots all the time. Body and limb shots are going to be the norm. Without a headshot, you have to shoot a plate-wearer like 4-6 times to drop him, counting out bandages and regeneration. And this is with the most powerful bow of the game. As opposed to dropping your fellow archer with a single shot. Which means it's not really worth it to go hunting for plate, but instead hunting those sweet one-shot kills. Which solves the problem: Less arrows towards melee, and even if someone does it, it's a minor nuisance.

1090 1722

Yeah let's argue about archers in the shield topic

Baron 1601 5082
  • 1
  • 17 Mar
 Lincs

@ǀǁǂÐƦ₳ƓƟƝƁƟƦƝǂǁǀ said:

@Peacerer said:
Shields were nerfed significantly by developers on purpose mainly because of 2h elitists whining against them. Ironicly, there were almost no players who used them at the time and surely there's even less players with shields now.

Yes, I remember this well enough. There was like 1-2 good shield players before. It was enough to discourage the ballerinas, who started crying and got their nerf. Now nobody plays with shield (for long anyway).

With shields being a joke and archers hunting each other, 2-handers can make the 90% of the active gameplay. I suppose that's how it was intended all along.

You say that last bit like it's something sinister but yes, that's basically the way it was always intended. Mordhau developed naturally as a spiritual successor to Chivalry, developed by competitive chivalry vets and historic melee combat enthusiasts. The core values expressed in Mordhau are fast paced melee combat, adaptability and quick thinking. Shields in their current state are fundamentally opposite of the core design of Mordhau. Archers are, to a lesser extent, but they've been balanced in a way that they work within the context of the game. Shields remain a sore subject for players because they continue to go against the grain of Mordhau's design philosophy.

If shields are to be made useful like you want, they need to be made into a reaction-based utility, like a larger parry window, extended timed parry, etc. Otherwise they will remain in their current state.

Knight 108 140

@Lincs said:
You say that last bit like it's something sinister but yes, that's basically the way it was always intended. Mordhau developed naturally as a spiritual successor to Chivalry, developed by competitive chivalry vets and historic melee combat enthusiasts. The core values expressed in Mordhau are fast paced melee combat, adaptability and quick thinking. Shields in their current state are fundamentally opposite of the core design of Mordhau. Archers are, to a lesser extent, but they've been balanced in a way that they work within the context of the game. Shields remain a sore subject for players because they continue to go against the grain of Mordhau's design philosophy.

Only sinister in the sense that when I put my money to back up the kickstarter project, shields were still spoken like they were a real thing. Teaser videos showed people dueling and winning with shields. Everything gave the reason to believe they would be a core choice, compatible and comparable to 2-handed weapons. If I had known they would be gimped/underdeveloped, along with archery, to drop them to a highly secondary role, made insignificant in comparison to 2-handed weapons, I would never have paid a dime for the game. I want to choose my playstyle.

@Lincs said:
If shields are to be made useful like you want, they need to be made into a reaction-based utility, like a larger parry window, extended timed parry, etc. Otherwise they will remain in their current state.

Like I already suggested earlier, I would rework smaller shields like you put it here, while keeping larger shields a bit as they are now, but perhaps even largening the box a bit and giving them some utility, like pushback.

Different weapons have different utilities. There is no reason to limit shields to one single function.

Knight 108 140

Talhoffer's manual includes plenty of images where a large shield, comparable to the current game's pavise shield, is used in close combat:

talhoffer1.jpg

talhoffer2.jpg

In this spirit, working on shields and their utility should continue. The current pavise shield already has a nice two-handed carrying grip (which does nothing and people just strike you through that massive immaterial wall at their leisure). It's not that much a stretch to add an active blocking function to it. Preferably with some kind of offensive utility, like pushback, but I'd settle even for a huge parry box alone. Likely not that good in dueling, but offering plenty of uses for the field:

bastards1.jpg

1090 1722

@Lionheart Chevalier said:

@JasonBourne said:

@Lionheart Chevalier said:
Shields don't really have a role. They're not good at blocking hallways, chokepoints or 1vX since they stam out quickly and come down when hit, they aren't good at dueling since it takes little IQ to stam out a shield user, I can be winning a duel with full health but I've lost the minute I get morph/feint to kicked, ftp, miss or double block a gamble... They're not good for learning the game because it simply lets anyone spam the shield to win and they're clunky. Shields are so incredibly weak to kicks, you can raise it when feinted, see your opponent switching to a kick but can't move away or counter kick because of raise/lower delay plus ping.

Shields aren't even good at blocking projectiles. They're ok at everything but worse than 2h or even 1h alone in most scenarios, especially where decent opponents are concerned.

They're clunky and not fun to use or fight against and clearly this is the issue. Telling people who complain about current shields being pointless that they're smoking something funny is not constructive and turned this into a shit fest. Do not go into semantics with me because you refuse to rub two braincells together and kick a shield user or run away from 1h.

Provide video. Duel some shielders and post here.

Shields are blocking melee like a wall, but cannot properly block trowables. Its a broken mechanic atm..

The fact that no one uses shields anymore is proof enough.

There are no more shielders to fight in NA, I'm the only one left who occasionally pulls it out in earnest besides noobies who quickly switch to something else. Saul goodman sometimes tries mace/kite but I can spam him or stam him ez and he rarely uses it longer than a life or two in general... and he's a much better player than I am.

I want to see raise/lower delays removed and a smaller/accurate parry box for shields along with higher stam negation but for maybe Targe/buckler. I would also like to see shield-drop on hit removed altogether along with parry drop on hit while we're at it. This opens them up to dragging in duels while allowing kite/heater to 1vX effectively without stamming out and allowing them to react to opponents. With shield-drop on hit gone, shields can block a doorway/chokepoint, take a side hit or leg hit and won't come down and doom the shield user to 50 simultaneous front hits. Stamina negation also encourages chambering attempts since stam isn't everything and thus, opens them up to mischambering and eating hits that way in duels. Feint/morph to kick may still be effective but it's not a guaranteed hit due to raise/lower delays and certainly doesn't guarantee an end to the duel since stamina is no longer everything.

Because shields are stuck with 1h that don't do much stamina damage, giving shields stamina buffs won't give them a stamina edge since 2h still does the most stam damage and 1h will have a hard time forcing stamina advantage without forcing misses (requiring some skill.) We now encourage beginners to learn to parry accurately, try chambering, read drags and to footwork attacks instead of turtling until they lose their shield. Big shields are decent at dueling but shine in 1vX due to parry size, stamina negation and are basically a direct upgrade to 1h... small shields shine best in duels or last resort scenarios and are more about style preference than direct 1h upgrade.

No need for new shield mechanics or anything absurd, basically just tweak shield stats to where their usefulness depends on the talent of the user. What do you think of those ideas Jason?

Read my essay and comment your ideas and critiques please :)

I think these would bring shields from their current handicapped position in duels to a skill based tool for duels and a powerhouse in team combat or 1vX.

367 340
  • 1
  • 22 Mar
 Peacerer

@Peacerer said:
Shields were nerfed significantly by developers on purpose mainly because of 2h elitists whining against them. Ironicly, there were almost no players who used them at the time and surely there's even less players with shields now. Unfortunately, archery headed the same direction. So little love was put into archery by developers. It's garbage, the sad part is it's garbage on purpose! Fake features. Basically it's like developers try hard to keep Mordhau small, when it could be soo much greater.

Weapons' block collision is wider than shields'

367 340
  • 24 Mar
 Peacerer

Developers keep ignoring they fkced shields and archery on purpose. Cowards!

Knight 614 1111
  • 25 Mar
 Uncy

@Peacerer said:
Developers keep ignoring they fkced shields and archery on purpose. Cowards!

Yes, go get those 2h elitists!

Baron 17 44

@Stouty said:
Drake aka eu resident shieldtrash actually refuses to duel me now which is hilarious

Maybe you should also add why I did.

Every time you got smacked ur ugly twat face, you ran across the entire. fucking. map. like speedy https://youtu.be/cc-3wVQuD7k?t=51
and wanted me to chase you. And not once, I remember at least 4 times.

I dont run from duels, I didnt fucking once, Im not Jason. If u wanna fight you can come to me any time, If you wanna play hide and seek, go to your local playgrounds where you belong.

1090 1722

Honestly alot of duels with 1h go that way. Someone decides they're going to win no matter what and they only run away until you decide you're ok with maybe losing and risking getting kited and hit or stammed out. You may get lucky and get their turned back but if they're good they only do it when they know they're close enough to bait you but far enough to be safe if they run. If you don't riposte to try and get closer they can already be far enough with 2h to hit you safely.

You can try feinting their back but if they're good enough all the feints/morphs won't matter since they're waiting for the sound and it's not like they see your feints or you'll ever be close enough to accel after the grunt... they know exactly where you are the whole time but because they're not actually watching you, no feint will flinch them.

If you have a shield it's worse since you're at an even greater stam disadvantage and raise/lower delay clunkiness prevents you from getting the hit out when you need to... they just spam poke you and all you can do is retreat, reset the duel to neutral and if they've decided they're not going to lose no matter what... then they'll just do it over again. You'd think Zwei/halberd/spear would be the worst offenders but it's actually T3 LS/GS/Bardiche and poleaxe "melee gods" that do this the most. Lunge nerf was a good thing, no a great thing, but I imagine now this tactic is going to be even more viable.

Someone starts running away I just flourish the closest person and start a new duel, not worth the trouble.

396 453
  • 26 Mar
 JasonBourne

I dont run from duels, I ignore shield atm cus they arent balanced..

Knight 8 14

@Đ٣ąҜєM.livevorOrt said:

@Stouty said:
Drake aka eu resident shieldtrash actually refuses to duel me now which is hilarious

Maybe you should also add why I did.

Every time you got smacked ur ugly twat face, you ran across the entire. fucking. map. like speedy https://youtu.be/cc-3wVQuD7k?t=51
and wanted me to chase you. And not once, I remember at least 4 times.

I dont run from duels, I didnt fucking once, Im not Jason. If u wanna fight you can come to me any time, If you wanna play hide and seek, go to your local playgrounds where you belong.

Damn, thats some testosterone.

I say you duel Jason tomorrow, if you do not run @Đ٣ąҜєM.livevorOrt ?

Knight 8 14

Or me, ft10 me, fellow shieldy?

396 453
  • 26 Mar
 JasonBourne

@AdoringFandalf said:

@Đ٣ąҜєM.livevorOrt said:

@Stouty said:
Drake aka eu resident shieldtrash actually refuses to duel me now which is hilarious

Maybe you should also add why I did.

Every time you got smacked ur ugly twat face, you ran across the entire. fucking. map. like speedy https://youtu.be/cc-3wVQuD7k?t=51
and wanted me to chase you. And not once, I remember at least 4 times.

I dont run from duels, I didnt fucking once, Im not Jason. If u wanna fight you can come to me any time, If you wanna play hide and seek, go to your local playgrounds where you belong.

Damn, thats some testosterone.

I say you duel Jason tomorrow, if you do not run @Đ٣ąҜєM.livevorOrt ?

I think u should both should ft10 since u guys are shielders. No point in duel shield vs non-shield.