Mordhau

What is the end goal for light loadouts?

Knight 27 33

@Lionheart Chevalier said:
They hear the grunt so feints and morphs don't work when their back is turned... they simply don't even know your feinting/morphing but they know when you attack by the grunt and 360 parry, not like they need to aim it well. They also hear your foot steps and know if you're chasing and when to 360 face stab with 1h. It really is better to let them run away.

Running away or turning away during a fight is mostly about timing and feeling. You can't 180 parry 24/7 and if someone with light armor and 1h would do that you could either follow up with quick feints because they just did a 180 parry and might panic parry or stamina drain them because they are using 1h and you have 2h.

When your riposte or attack goes and misses cause they're too far, gambling and comboing is not an option.

In this case/situation there should be a proper chase mechanic that would allow you to follow up to your opponent no matter their armor

Their 1h will win that gamble match every time. Sometimes I do combo just to catch them incase they try cftp mind game me but that's usually a free hit for them.

FTP if you combo and they turn back to "free hit" you.

Also, they may still be running away, why would your combo catch them when your first attack, which has lunge, failed? Just a waste of stamina. It really is better to let them run away. Least you can catch up on stam/health if they're sprinting away.

Yet again a proper chase mechanic would allow you to follow them and if they turnaround to "free hit" you FTP and follow up with either feint or drag. You would also have the option if you are low stam and health to let them get away.

1154 1805

@PinkiePowPowMSK said:

@Lionheart Chevalier said:
They hear the grunt so feints and morphs don't work when their back is turned... they simply don't even know your feinting/morphing but they know when you attack by the grunt and 360 parry, not like they need to aim it well. They also hear your foot steps and know if you're chasing and when to 360 face stab with 1h. It really is better to let them run away.

Running away or turning away during a fight is mostly about timing and feeling. You can't 180 parry 24/7 and if someone with light armor and 1h would do that you could either follow up with quick feints because they just did a 180 parry and might panic parry or stamina drain them because they are using 1h and you have 2h.

When your riposte or attack goes and misses cause they're too far, gambling and comboing is not an option.

In this case/situation there should be a proper chase mechanic that would allow you to follow up to your opponent no matter their armor

Their 1h will win that gamble match every time. Sometimes I do combo just to catch them incase they try cftp mind game me but that's usually a free hit for them.

FTP if you combo and they turn back to "free hit" you.

Also, they may still be running away, why would your combo catch them when your first attack, which has lunge, failed? Just a waste of stamina. It really is better to let them run away. Least you can catch up on stam/health if they're sprinting away.

Yet again a proper chase mechanic would allow you to follow them and if they turnaround to "free hit" you FTP and follow up with either feint or drag. You would also have the option if you are low stam and health to let them get away.

I appreciate the time you put into replying with suggestions but I don't feel like understood my first post or my second post where I play out each of your suggestions before you even suggest them. That's ok.

There is a chase mechanic already but I've yet to find it useful when chasing someone, perhaps it does need to be improved or "made proper". Maybe more resistance at the start of a sprint to make back turn-running riskier but that may feel horrible... I just feel like sprint speed is so strong compared to weapon speed. People have literally outran my attacks by circling into my side (This is not to be confused with running into an accel and forcing it to fail... more like they run away to the opposite side of an attack and my attack fails because they were faster than my tracking/turning while horizontal swinging)... shouldn't my swing be faster than their sprint? May be a ping issue and controller has low max sensitivity but I've occasionally done this against other people too.

Knight 27 33

@Lionheart Chevalier said:

I appreciate the time you put into replying with suggestions but I don't feel like understood my first post or my second post where I play out each of your suggestions before you even suggest them. That's ok.

If I again misunderstood u or made myself unclear then please add me and show me ingame what u mean.

There is a chase mechanic already but I've yet to find it useful when chasing someone, perhaps it does need to be improved or "made proper".

Yes exactly it just needs more testing and balancing.

Maybe more resistance at the start of a sprint to make back turn-running riskier but that may feel horrible...

Yes that solution could be what I said earlier that there should be some kind of acceleration process for the player to reach maximum speed in and the early states of the that process u could as u said add resistance as in slow acceleration to punish and prevent running or turning ur back from a fight.

I just feel like sprint speed is so strong compared to weapon speed. People have literally outran my attacks by circling into my side (This is not to be confused with running into an accel and forcing it to fail... more like they run away to the opposite side of an attack and my attack fails because they were faster than my tracking/turning while horizontal swinging)...

So from what I understand ur talking about matrixing which is shortly explained avoiding ur opponents weapon by using body movement and footwork. Matrixing can be used instead of parry or after a parry if say so u panic parry it is rewarded in the way it doesn’t cost stam and u can sometimes hit ur opponent if he is flinched from the last hit. Matrixing is a gamble and highly risky in the way u can’t be 100% sure what ur opponent does and if hes say so lmb over instead of stabbing then there’s almost no doubt u will be hit. Matrixing is a lot about range aswell if u can do better footwork and outplay ur opponent then u can get lucky and matrix some of the hits. You can always practice doing matrixes, but I would not recommend doing it against players that are highly skilled as it is a gamble.

shouldn't my swing be faster than their sprint? May be a ping issue and controller has low max sensitivity but I've occasionally done this against other people too.

Yes it should and yet again that is another balancing mistake.

Knight 99 263
  • 20 Feb
 GAYFISH

Changing lunge based on armor worn could really help lighter loadouts.
The main reason footwork and dodging are so ineffective as a light class is because plate fatty can just zoom straight up to you and be immediately in range because of lunge.
I mean lunge distance is nearly identical to the dodge distance which just makes it feel useless.
Why ever go light when you effectively have the same mobility as a rat when it comes to small team engagements or duels.
It seems like the only melee meta the devs want is full plate accel/decel apes making their animations as unreadable as possible.
It's sad really

252 864
  • 2
  • 20 Feb
 Cswic

@GAYFISH said:
Changing lunge based on armor worn could really help lighter loadouts.
The main reason footwork and dodging are so ineffective as a light class is because plate fatty can just zoom straight up to you and be immediately in range because of lunge.
I mean lunge distance is nearly identical to the dodge distance which just makes it feel useless.
Why ever go light when you effectively have the same mobility as a rat when it comes to small team engagements or duels.
It seems like the only melee meta the devs want is full plate accel/decel apes making their animations as unreadable as possible.
It's sad really

Early on we did have lunge scaling upwards with armor speed before they made it static since lighter lunge felt too strong or something. I think Izil suggested the same thing recently (before it was said we'd have this 25ms lunge nerf). 1/1/1 or 0/0/0 would have the current lunge and then anything heavier would have worse. Kind of the opposite of the original way it scaled.

Should definitely push for this depending on how things play out with the lunge nerf.

Knight 99 263
  • 20 Feb
 GAYFISH

@Cswic said:

@GAYFISH said:
Changing lunge based on armor worn could really help lighter loadouts.
The main reason footwork and dodging are so ineffective as a light class is because plate fatty can just zoom straight up to you and be immediately in range because of lunge.
I mean lunge distance is nearly identical to the dodge distance which just makes it feel useless.
Why ever go light when you effectively have the same mobility as a rat when it comes to small team engagements or duels.
It seems like the only melee meta the devs want is full plate accel/decel apes making their animations as unreadable as possible.
It's sad really

Early on we did have lunge scaling upwards with armor speed before they made it static since lighter lunge felt too strong or something. I think Izil suggested the same thing recently (before it was said we'd have this 25ms lunge nerf). 1/1/1 or 0/0/0 would have the current lunge and then anything heavier would have worse. Kind of the opposite of the original way it scaled.

Should definitely push for this depending on how things play out with the lunge nerf.

Ye that's how I'd like it, previous light lunge was absurd but to balance it by making lunge static is just plain lazy.

Duke 2266 4009
  • 21 Feb
 Huggles

The thing is tho, you really don't want too strong of a lunge period imho. People use the analogy of like ice skating to describe the game when lunge is crazy, but I think jet packs are more analogous.

It's just the BURST of speed that feels shit for judging range.

It's a burst of speed that is not obviously conveyed through animation. When lunge is too strong it feels like anyone can be in range at any time and it makes it crazy hard to track where everyone is in the middle of a fight.

It turns teamfights into basically just mindlessly riposting and doing the most ridiculous far fetched morph drag target switches with lunge.

It leaves newer players LOST like shroud who was just walking and such while swinging and everyone else is just VROOMING around everywhere with crazy lunge.

Knight 334 777
  • 1
  • 21 Feb
 AngelEyes

Yeah I’ve always hated lunge In this game

252 864
  • 3
  • 21 Feb
 Cswic

@Huggles said:
The thing is tho, you really don't want too strong of a lunge period imho. People use the analogy of like ice skating to describe the game when lunge is crazy, but I think jet packs are more analogous.

It's just the BURST of speed that feels shit for judging range.

It's a burst of speed that is not obviously conveyed through animation. When lunge is too strong it feels like anyone can be in range at any time and it makes it crazy hard to track where everyone is in the middle of a fight.

It turns teamfights into basically just mindlessly riposting and doing the most ridiculous far fetched morph drag target switches with lunge.

It leaves newer players LOST like shroud who was just walking and such while swinging and everyone else is just VROOMING around everywhere with crazy lunge.

The part about shroud is just flat wrong. There are enough arguments against lunge so there is no need to put in misinformation.

Shroud, like many other newer players, did not know that you can sprint while attacking. That is why he was walking. Absolutely nothing to do with lunge.

He actually would have been much worse off without lunge since his range would have been even more gimped compared to people who know about sprinting while attacking.

Knight 928 2545
  • 1
  • 21 Feb
 Pred

I think what currently gimps light loadouts are:

  • Lunge + non existent range play, so they can't utilize the would-be biggest strength of the supposedly best weapons
  • Said weapons are too cheap as well - you can go 3/3/1 with Zwei and 2/3/1 with Halberd. Access to the best weapons should be the main reason to go lighter and it certainly doesn't help that you can get a mass fucking destruction powerhouse like Mace for just 4 points and then pack yourself into all kinds of armor and perks (I'm assuming you have a sliver of decency to not go with shield as well).
  • T3 torso is too cheap/ too good in comparison to leg armor, so T3 torso ends up pretty much the best purchase in the game and almost everyone can afford it by saving on leg armor.

On the other hand, 0/0/0 should be 1HTK to torso and head by 80% of the weapons in the game, most of the mainstream weapons need 2 hits to kill T0 torso and 3 hits to kill T3 torso, which is pretty absurd.

So, the lightest loadouts would ideally get perks and utility space, but going something up to like 1/1/0 with Halberd should be clearly inferior to medium armor. Then light to medium loadouts would get the best team play weapons and tanky loadouts the Longswords and Greatswords of this game at most.

Duke 2266 4009
  • 1
  • 21 Feb
 Huggles

@Cswic said:

@Huggles said:
The thing is tho, you really don't want too strong of a lunge period imho. People use the analogy of like ice skating to describe the game when lunge is crazy, but I think jet packs are more analogous.

It's just the BURST of speed that feels shit for judging range.

It's a burst of speed that is not obviously conveyed through animation. When lunge is too strong it feels like anyone can be in range at any time and it makes it crazy hard to track where everyone is in the middle of a fight.

It turns teamfights into basically just mindlessly riposting and doing the most ridiculous far fetched morph drag target switches with lunge.

It leaves newer players LOST like shroud who was just walking and such while swinging and everyone else is just VROOMING around everywhere with crazy lunge.

The part about shroud is just flat wrong. There are enough arguments against lunge so there is no need to put in misinformation.

Shroud, like many other newer players, did not know that you can sprint while attacking. That is why he was walking. Absolutely nothing to do with lunge.

He actually would have been much worse off without lunge since his range would have been even more gimped compared to people who know about sprinting while attacking.

I'm not talking about him hitting people, I'm talking about his perception of range. Perception of range is absolutely FUCKED by lunge.

Him not sprinting while attacking and a lot of new players not really good about being pressuring and aggressive with W key shows how unintuitive the lunge boost can be as well.

1154 1805

Maul doesn't even 1shot naked/light torso lol Its truly infuriating when my Longsword/poleaxe is deflected by a farmer's hat or naked chest. Cheap armor gives you no speed nerf from naked and more damage reduction fighting cheap 1h weapons but falls short against heavier 2h. Realistically messer, baxe and other slash/chop weapons should rape the shit out of light torsos. Would love to see naked/light get health nerfs (more 1htk torsos by 2h) in exchange for some of the buffs mentioned above or for more expensive T3 torso armor costs.

T3 torso= 4pts? Helmets/leggings are already well balanced by previous point costs and corresponding movement speed nerfs.

OR we can swap head/torso speed nerfs with each other, so torso becomes the heavier weight instead of helmet. Torso's alot more important/valuable than helmet anyways and this should be the weightier both realistically and in terms of balance.

I'd speculate either would make medium torso's more prominent... but let's be real medium torso's are meh. I think we would all appreciate more medium torsos.

Knight 99 263
  • 1
  • 21 Feb
 GAYFISH

@Lionheart Chevalier said:
Maul doesn't even 1shot naked/light torso lol Its truly infuriating when my Longsword/poleaxe is deflected by a farmer's hat or naked chest. Cheap armor gives you no speed nerf from naked and more damage reduction fighting cheap 1h weapons but falls short against heavier 2h. Realistically messer, baxe and other slash/chop weapons should rape the shit out of light torsos. Would love to see naked/light get health nerfs (more 1htk torsos by 2h) in exchange for some of the buffs mentioned above or for more expensive T3 torso armor costs.

T3 torso= 4pts? Helmets/leggings are already well balanced by previous point costs and corresponding movement speed nerfs.

OR we can swap head/torso speed nerfs with each other, so torso becomes the heavier weight instead of helmet. Torso's alot more important/valuable than helmet anyways and this should be the weightier both realistically and in terms of balance.

I'd speculate either would make medium torso's more prominent... but let's be real medium torso's are meh. I think we would all appreciate more medium torsos.

I'm almost positive that helmets and torso have identical speed debuffs, T1 is also slightly slower than naked.
But I like the idea of 4 points for heavy torso

1154 1805

I heard T1 was getting the same speed as naked next patch. I could totally be wrong and I have no idea where I heard that, prolly in game.

Knight 49 107

I like the idea of a 4 points heavy torso

Knight 49 107

And it would nerf longbow + heavy torso, which is nice

Knight 766 3312
  • 22 Feb
 Mittsies

I think we need to go beyond a simple point-buy system.

Knight 2266 4081
  • 22 Feb
 Runagate

I remember that long ago, there was talk of some skill tree type system, kinda like perks so that you'd need to have some thing equipped before getting into heavy armor. That thing would also forbid you from taking certain gear like bows. That has obviously been scrapped for a more simple point system but Mittsies could be right. Perhaps this is something to be entirely revamped eventually.

Knight 3303 6769
  • 3
  • 23 Feb
 Bodkin

@Lionheart Chevalier said:
Maul doesn't even 1shot naked/light torso lol Its truly infuriating when my Longsword/poleaxe is deflected by a farmer's hat or naked chest. Cheap armor gives you no speed nerf from naked and more damage reduction fighting cheap 1h weapons but falls short against heavier 2h. Realistically messer, baxe and other slash/chop weapons should rape the shit out of light torsos.

Well actually gambesons are far more resistant to slashes than stabs. Skallagrim has done a video on it but basically your sword has to be VERY sharp to cut through a gambeson in 1 swing. This shows why stabbing was stressed far more than cutting through the majority of medieval european history.

But I know you mean from a gameplay standpoint.

I think the main thing holding back light though is how buffed t3 movement is since release. Earlier on that speed advantage felt much more worthwhile due to movement being far slower across the board. T3 was very limiting in movement speed and had more hp back then. Like LS was 4htk, 1h swords 5-6, etc. There were some odd op weapons back then like baxe 2htk plate torso and all that, but overall you survived more and moved less when compared to now.

Now, and its completely true, movement speed doesnt help much UNLESS you try doing keepaway long weapon playstyle because it buffs your effective reach a bit, but even then its not a substantial advantage over having like 231. Like for map travel it will probably matter somewhat but its not a very big difference and in combat it really doesnt mean much at all.

Personally I dont think acceleration to top speed should be the same for all armor. I think light/naked should accelerate exceptionally fast when compared to t3. T2 be somewhere right in the middle. This would let light feel exceptionally fast without having to buff its top speed to be retarded fast.

Ideally we want medium to be the most common armor pick, not t3. Light/heavy should feel more specialized imho. Buff heavy hp vs blades if you want (they dont, why swords kept getting buffed in the first place) but make it a little slower. I think it was this patch or last but t3 got a direct speed buff without touching light or medium, hence our current predicament really.

Duke 2266 4009
  • 1
  • 23 Feb
 Huggles

@Bodkin agree completely

I feel as tho balancing plate loadouts and swords has taken a back seat to making swords strong against everything because swords are seen as cool.

LS is OP and retarded beyond belief realy. 5 point weapon that can do everything with good HTK, Speed, Reach, Drags, etc.

It doesn't even need mordhau grip to be retarded strong and yet mordhau grip allows it to be both a generally OP weapon and a specialized OP alt grip.

Ridiculous.

I also think plate is in general too fast compared to light armor and the weapons you can afford while still in full plate are far too good. I also think leg armor makes too big of an impact on overall speed for how meaningless it is as protection compared to torso.


Rn you can pick 3-3-1 loadout which gives you pretty damn good speed compared to everything else in the game at basically the cost of no protection disadvantage. Or you can go 2-3-1. Or you can go 2-3-0/3-3-0.

What does this on average cost? like 5-7 points for basically full protection. You have 9-11 points left over. So you can grab longsword and a cleaver and still have a shit ton left for essential and non-essential perks. Or you can grab a zwei, bardiche, or even a fucking halberd if you go 2-3-0.

In response the devs in the past have pushed WEAPON costs up, which just makes light armor less viable because they barely have perks left over for anything else and plate can just pick a wep worth 1-2 points less that is basically just as good or they can just forgo 1 tier on a meaningless armor piece.


TL'DR plate currently has best of all worlds. Plate has:

  1. Very good protection
  2. Pretty good point flexibility
  3. Access to the best weapons
  4. Enough mobility to where it is almost never obviously lacking in any given scenario.

2 or 3 of the above should not be as good as they are now.

Either nerf its mobility significantly or buff the mobility of other armors mobility, raise the cost of plate specifically by a substantial number, make certain perks unavailable if you use plate, make certain weapons unavailable if you use plate, or some combination of all these potentials.

But do not try to balance it by indirectly also nerfing lighter builds which basically just makes all the plate nerfs meaningless.