Mordhau

What is the end goal for light loadouts?

252 864
 Cswic

There have been mentions of how "lighter loadouts just need some more powerful perks" to bring them up to par with your typical 3/3/x 2h weapon loadout. Afaik no info has been said on what those perks may be, or if they are already being internally tested etc.

Is the goal to make light loadouts be able to duke it out with heavier ones in a pure combat role, or is it to make them the high utility role?

Current perks and utility items don't provide enough useful utility worth taking (aside from maybe throwing axe spam) and there aren't any combat oriented perks that bring lighter armors + 1h up to par with 3/3/x 2h.

Honestly the heavy armor 2h loadouts or big weapon loadouts probably should be the team fight kings and that is fine. Utility or combat, either is fine.

If there are some powerful perks already in the works feel free to close this.

Edit: Loose definition of "light loadout" = willingly spending about 10 pts on weapons and armor with interest in taking 6 pts worth of perks or utility items. Personally I would not consider most zwei or halberd loadouts to be "light" because they are heavy weapons. Semantics aside, the zwei and halberd loadouts are still relevant to the discussion in the sense that perks that function well for lighter armors would potentially be used on those loadouts too.

324 864
  • 15 Feb
 Xatrian

tbh the pure speed advantage might be useful in frontline for tactical purposes, but who knows because we're never gonna get to test frontline

Duke 2266 4010
  • 15 Feb
 Huggles

lowering dodge cost, raising plate armor cost, and adding certain perk restrictions for plate armor would be the best way imho.

I see light armor/naked spear/halberd/etc in combination with lots of powerful perks being very useful in lots of pubs, and also as a utility role ofc.
However, in small man teams and duels, I highly doubt anything will ever be worth more than plate armor at the highest level of play. Survivability is just too huge of a factor.

252 864
  • 2
  • 15 Feb
 Cswic

@Huggles said:
lowering dodge cost, raising plate armor cost, and adding certain perk restrictions for plate armor would be the best way imho.

I see light armor/naked spear/halberd/etc in combination with lots of powerful perks being very useful in lots of pubs, and also as a utility role ofc.
However, in small man teams and duels, I highly doubt anything will ever be worth more than plate armor at the highest level of play. Survivability is just too huge of a factor.

Dodge cost is going to be 4 points last I heard and have lower stamina cost.

I don't think plate armor costs too little, aside from maybe plate chest. I think the alternatives are not worthwhile enough. I don't want to take away the knight-esque loadouts people enjoy playing, I want them to be used as the standard for where alternatives should aim to be.

Perk restrictions based on armor type is something that has been talked about before and I think is on the right track in general. The big question then is what perks do you give lighter loadouts access to that are attractive enough to take a survivability hit? So far no one seems to have an answer to this, myself included.

Knight 99 263
  • 15 Feb
 GAYFISH

I think more mobility perks could be attractive to people. Maybe some form of faster backpedal acceleration, but that could be hard to balance.
Improved climbing would be nice.
An expensive perk that gives upgraded climbing mechanics like short vertical wall runs would be hilarious if it could be balanced properly.

Knight 766 3313
  • 1
  • 15 Feb
 Mittsies

I think light and medium armor should provide benefits that don't make them significantly better in direct combat. So light armor would take the least fall damage, medium would take slightly more, and heavy would take the most fall damage. It doesn't have to be a major difference, just enough that you feel a little more nimble. Light armor will be bad in duels (as it should be) but decent in a big battle gamemode where you have complex terrain to navigate.

some possible passive benefits for having lighter armor:

  • faster ladder climbing
  • less fall damage
  • quicker horseback-mounting
  • stand up quicker after ragdolling from a fall
  • vault animation is faster
  • regenerate outside of combat quicker

some possible perks that scale with lighter armor

  • jump kick (Lighter armor = goes further / is quicker)
  • tumble when falling great heights to reduce damage (Lighter armor = less damage, faster tumble)
  • jump off horses any time and tumble with minor damage (Lighter armor = less damage, faster tumble)
  • super jump to help navigate certain maps, but can't attack during it (Lighter armor = higher jump)
  • dodge, same as the current one (Lighter armor = uses less stamina)
  • vertical wallrun like gayfish said (Lighter armor = higher maximum climb)
  • various archery buffs that are better with lighter armor

The scaling concept is namely because I hate the idea of making it so heavy armor cannot use certain things. I really don't like the idea of creating classes, even pseudo-classes. On a sidenote, huntsman should be removed and replaced with an innate mechanic where you take increased damage from projectiles while aiming a ranged weapon, and archery customization should be significantly unfucked so we're not running around with 0/0/0 longbow warhammer huntsman.

201 402
  • 1
  • 15 Feb
 serbish

if were talking about letting lighter classes have more options in battle, might i suggest a few ideas

  • ability to hang off ledges and not climb up automatically, if a knight were to try this they would lose stamina and fall from their weight, also to use a weapon while hanging, such as shortspear or throwable, in similar animation to being at the top of a ladder. it also means you can drop from slightly higher distances if you can hang from the ledge first

  • ability to roll as well as dodge, perhaps by holding space instead of tapping it. slow enough to not offer combat advantage, but fast enough for evading couched weapons, and in general sneaking around minimising your visibility between cover. it could also provide some defence from aoe attacks like the catapult rock.

  • faster punching and kicking, similar in rhythm to the carving knife, and no flinch.

  • able to dismount horses while theyre still galloping, good for emergencies, or using the horse as bait.

  • able to crouch and bend slightly further, make evasion tactics more viable


since most light classes typically use ranged weaponry, i got some ideas for those too:

  • crossbow default hip fire, we know holding fire button will aim the crossbow, and releasing will shoot the bolt. what if we can bypass aiming and just click fire to shoot from the hip. useful for closer range and faster attack which is already closer to centre mass of the target. its also nice to just try other aiming modes as it makes you less predictable.

  • shortbows need an alternate mode too. ever use the hunting bow in skyrim and notice how they turn it on its side to aim. have this as an alt for shortbows, which gives the arrow more of an arc, which could be useful for firing over teammates, over walls, and performing trickshots.

  • longbows, they are good but need some kind of way to adjust draw power, otherwise using longbows is too simple and boring.

1159 1816

I like Mittsies/Lemels ideas for passive benefits. Faster ladder climb, faster structure climbing, quick horse dismounting, quicker getting up when ragdolled and less fall damage. These are intuitive.

Horses are pretty powerful and remind me of the powerup given by, say, Ghosts in Halo, etc. But they feel more like a trap as well, very good but only for drive bys. Would be interesting to get a "jumping off' animation when galloping, especially for lighter classes who may not have a massive weapon to swing from horse back or crouch with.

252 864
  • 3
  • 15 Feb
 Cswic

@SherbershLemel said:
if were talking about letting lighter classes have more options in battle, might i suggest a few ideas

  • able to crouch and bend slightly further, make evasion tactics more viable

This is a good idea and one I hope they consider in the near future. It has the potential to make lighter armors better in straight up fights and does it in a way that is not just adding more hp like plate armor.

With the archery stuff:

A lot of recent archery changes have been made to discourage "shotgunning" so I don't think the crossbow hipfire would work out.

252 864
  • 2
  • 18 Feb
 Cswic

Summary so far:

1) Flexibility: Either built into armor or a perk that increases the degrees of spine bending while standing and while crouched. Usually the lighter armor players like to be more evasive anyway so this is a good fit.

  • Possible issue if the increased lookdown would provide stronger accels / instas.

2) Jump kick perk: Pretty straight forward. You can jump and you can kick. Lighter armors jump farther as mittsies mentioned so this perk would also softly scale with armor type. If the stamina drain on jump kick is too strong it could be lowered via the perk as a trade off.

3) Climb speed based on armor / faster climbing for lighter armors.

4) Mentioned in other threads, but inventory slot perk or increased inventory slots based on armor. E.g. T0/T1/T2/T3 would have 5/4/3/2 slots respectively based on chest armor level. Reason being that right now if you wanted to give up armor to run more utility items like traps or medkits you don't always have enough slots.

  • Potential issue of increased firepot and throwing spam.

5) Higher Jump via armor type or via perk.

  • Potential issue of getting out of map or into areas you should not be.
Knight 27 33

Why make it so complicated? Just make it about speed so that less armor makes u faster when walking and running. Both in terms of acceleration the amount of time it takes to get to max speed and in top speed. This will overall make the feeling of using 1h with light armor alot better than with heavy and will also give you an advantage against Heavy armor players using 1h weps.
Keep it simple and skillbased...

252 864
 Cswic

@PinkiePowPowMSK said:
Why make it so complicated? Just make it about speed so that less armor makes u faster when walking and running. Both in terms of acceleration the amount of time it takes to get to max speed and in top speed. This will overall make the feeling of using 1h with light armor alot better than with heavy and will also give you an advantage against Heavy armor players using 1h weps.
Keep it simple and skillbased...

I don't feel any of that is particularly complicated. More complicated compared to movement speed increase? Sure.
Armor already works this way to an extent and the overwhelming heavy armor usage has shown that the movement speed gap isn't worthwhile enough compared to the HTK.
Making lighter armor faster means more riposte runaways which people seem to dislike.

Knight 27 33

In terms of running away or healing midcombat would be dealt With by a proper chase mechanic and running away from a riposte could actually nerf/punish the parry and riposte meta but still be easily dealt With by feinting

1159 1816

Cant feint a riposte and the act of not riposting and then feinting can be easily punished by 1h gamble... they also turn around really quick when they hear the grunt and parry. I feel like there's nothing I can do about someone running away except to not follow and let combat reset... chasing always gets me surprise smaked and killed even though I totally know whats coming.

I never feel outsmarted

I like Cswics/Mittsies and other's previous ideas of giving jumping,cimbing etc speed/stamina buffs to light armor. The jump kick was removed for a reason and vertical wall running has to be a joke but otherwise I'm a fan.

252 864
  • 4
  • 18 Feb
 Cswic

He isn't saying to feint a riposte. Pretty sure what he means is that instead of going to riposte all the time you just wait half a beat to see if the guy is going to run away after your parry. Most of the time they have to start their turn / run during your parry in order for it to work so you can decide if you want to riposte or wait to do a normal attack that can be morphed or feinted. The morph or feint usually lets you close the distance and hit the guy in the back.

I'd take more varied movement speed across armors than some of these other changes, the riposte run away is just one of the potential issues I felt like mentioning.

Just add it to the proverbial list since in the end the point of this thread is just to have some ideas for lighter builds.

Knight 27 33

stap edit comment..
What i mean by complicated is that all these things are either passive or doesn't really matter. theres a few solutions such as adding faster regeneration which would allow you to return upon the battlefield faster that could be useful but would also allow players to retreat or stay away from a fight when low health.

@Cswic said:
Armor already works this way to an extent and the overwhelming heavy armor usage has shown that the movement speed gap isn't worthwhile enough compared to the HTK.

The speed of each armor tier hasnt been balanced properly which is a reason why it isnt worthwhile compared to the HTK.

252 864
  • 4
  • 18 Feb
 Cswic

@PinkiePowPowMSK said:
stap edit comment..
What i mean by complicated is that all these things are either passive or doesn't really matter. theres a few solutions such as adding faster regeneration which would allow you to return upon the battlefield faster that could be useful but would also allow players to retreat or stay away from a fight when low health.

@Cswic said:
Armor already works this way to an extent and the overwhelming heavy armor usage has shown that the movement speed gap isn't worthwhile enough compared to the HTK.
The speed of each armor tier hasnt been balanced properly which is a reason why it isnt worthwhile compared to the HTK.

Sorry about the quick edits. I understand what you mean now. If tenacious was more expensive I think it'd be nice if it made healing start faster in addition to increasing the heal rate.

Honestly maybe a greater range of movement speed like you said in addition to the upcoming lunge nerf would be enough.

201 402
  • 18 Feb
 serbish

I don't feel any of that is particularly complicated. More complicated compared to movement speed increase, sure.
Armor already works this way to an extent and the overwhelming heavy armor usage has shown that it doesn't work.
Making lighter armor faster means more riposte runaways which people dislike, and some would not call them skillbased.

turning your back on the opponent as some kind of tactic is something ive always found to be ridiculous. watching duels play out this way is very saddening.

possible solution to it would be to put in some kind of skid animation, for when you pivot at 90-180 degrees during a sprint animation. it seems resetting acceleration on pivot isnt enough, as even some heavy classes are able to get away with this tactic.

the skid would have you push off the ground back to your normal speed, but stops you moving for the same amount of time the running acceleration wouldve been enough to get you away from the weapons reach.

Knight 27 33

@Lionheart Chevalier said:
Cant feint a riposte and the act of not riposting and then feinting can be easily punished by 1h gamble... they also turn around really quick when they hear the grunt and parry. I feel like there's nothing I can do about someone running away except to not follow and let combat reset... chasing always gets me surprise smaked and killed even though I totally know whats coming.

First of all if someone runaway or turn they back to you during a fight then you can easily punish it with either a combo or feint . If you cant reach and he keeps running use a feint when he turns around to parry which are all depending on what they do. and the way that u can gamble or punish into these feints is something that could be "fixed or balanced" by making feints faster

1159 1816

@PinkiePowPowMSK said:

@Lionheart Chevalier said:
Cant feint a riposte and the act of not riposting and then feinting can be easily punished by 1h gamble... they also turn around really quick when they hear the grunt and parry. I feel like there's nothing I can do about someone running away except to not follow and let combat reset... chasing always gets me surprise smaked and killed even though I totally know whats coming.

First of all if someone runaway or turn they back to you during a fight then you can easily punish it with either a combo or feint . If you cant reach and he keeps running use a feint when he turns around to parry which are all depending on what they do. and the way that u can gamble or punish into these feints is something that could be "fixed or balanced" by making feints faster

They hear the grunt so feints and morphs don't work when their back is turned... they simply don't even know your feinting/morphing but they know when you attack by the grunt and 360 parry, not like they need to aim it well. They also hear your foot steps and know if you're chasing and when to 360 face stab with 1h. It really is better to let them run away.

When your riposte or attack goes and misses cause they're too far, gambling and comboing is not an option. Their 1h will win that gamble match every time. Sometimes I do combo just to catch them incase they try cftp mind game me but that's usually a free hit for them. Also, they may still be running away, why would your combo catch them when your first attack, which has lunge, failed? Just a waste of stamina. It really is better to let them run away. Least you can catch up on stam/health if they're sprinting away.