Mordhau

Hyper-armor on riposte needs to go

Baron 3 33
  • 11 Feb
 Ωmega

Hyper-armor is a bad mechanic because it drastically alters the fundamentals of the game at a moment's notice. It is often difficult to predict, sometimes impossible to react to, and it forces the player to do unintuitive things in order to work around it.

Additionally, I believe that the justification for hyper-armor, which is to buff 1vX fights, is not nearly enough of a benefit in comparison to how it breaks the much more common team fights.

The first and most fundamental reason that hyper-armor is detrimental to the game is that it reintroduces hit trades, something that both Mercs mod in Chiv and Mordhau have made it a goal to eliminate. Additionally, the trades caused by hyper-armor are much worse than normal hit trades, since the person riposting will take significantly less damage. The stun mechanic also makes it impossible for the person that hits the riposter to feint to parry, thus avoiding this unflinchable attack.

Another reason hyper-armor on riposte is bad mechanic is how it impacts the average team fight. Imagine a typical 3v3 engagement: All the players are generally lined up with their teammates and exchanging attacks with the enemy. Hyper-armor on riposte heavily encourages all players to riposte constantly, since not only is their attack faster than normal and thus more likely to flinch an opponent, they are also unflinchable and will take minimal damage. The most common and frustrating scenario in a team fight is when the player tries to target switch to an enemy on their peripheral, and that enemy happens to parry and riposte the player's teammate at roughly the same time. It is impossible to keep track of the exact actions of all parties involved in the middle of fast-paced combat, so hyper-armor often punishes making a good play, such as target switching. This is especially true in the common case where the player target switches and hits the riposter first, but just gets traded while doing no meaningful damage for their switch and hitting their opponent first.

Additionally, hyper-armor on riposte greatly slows down 2v1 fights and makes them tedious. The outnumbered player very rarely wins anyway, and when they do, it is only b/c they tank through multiple hits because they are taking negligible damage each time. There is not much skill involved in abusing hyper-armor in 1vX. The outnumbered player will simply riposte on every chance they are given, which is quite one-dimensional, and very cheesy when it pays off. It feels like an unearned victory a lot of the time.

For the players who are 2v1'ing, this mechanic simply disincentives actually attacking their opponent. Any parry that they feed to the outnumbered player will be used against them. So in order to work around this awkward mechanic, the best tactic is for one of the players to miss on purpose constantly, opening up hits for their teammate. Personally I find this to be absurd - I should never be rewarded more for missing than for attempting to hit my opponent. It is unintuitive, boring and it's also quite frustrating to be on the other end of. There's nothing worse than being outnumbered and being denied to the chance to even parry at all. Hyper-armor is so dangerous that more and more high level play will revolve around missing parries on purpose to speed up 2v1's. Parry into Parry is also a heavily underutilized mechanic, since riposting every time is just so powerful.

I don't want to make this post too long, so I will end by saying that due to the reasons listed above, I think that the downsides of hyper-armor heavily outweigh the benefits. Allowing the rare 1vX fight to be won through brute force and punishing the normal way of playing the game is not worth the constant inconsistencies and annoyance that this mechanic causes.

Personally, I do not think Mordhau needs any special mechanic to buff 1vX. Being outnumbered is a huge disadvantage regardless, and adding janky and artificial ways of making it marginally easier is a mistake. However, if the devs or others absolutely feel that there needs to be some sort of mechanic, I would suggest trying unflinchable ripostes with no hyper-armor, or perhaps attempting a tweaked form of active parry again. I think that testing the game without any sort of 1vX handicap would be great though. I think it would feel much cleaner and more natural.

Let's make a discussion out of this - I want to see what everyone thinks, because personally I think this is the most important issue with the combat.

Duchess 650 2668
  • 11 Feb
 Stouty

based and tempestpilled

Knight 1718 2851
  • 2
  • 11 Feb
 Runagate

I agree to be honest. I'm no high level lad yet, but I think that having hit trades in any form in this game that from the very beginning was supposed to be based around an absolute first hit flinch is unfitting and indeed bad for the very reasons listed in the OP.

14 20

What about a mix between hyper armor and active parry ? Instead of having a block just take 66% damage less, and take full damage if your blade isn't connecting to incoming strikes

22 63

imagine smashing someone in the head with a mace but it only does 12 damage because they are fighting someone else, hyperarmour sounds like an april fools joke

161 180
  • 1
  • 11 Feb
 idiotgod

On top of all the legitimate stuff you've listed, I hate the idea that you can parry an arrow and then suddenly become invulnerable for no reason.

"Personally I find this to be absurd - I should never be rewarded more for missing than for attempting to hit my opponent. It is unintuitive, boring and it's also quite frustrating to be on the other end of."

Here you're describing why the prevalence of cftp is so unsatisfying and annoying. They miss, I outmaneuver, doesn't matter cause they just have to read anyway, and maybe they even missed it on purpose to get me to try to feint them so they can land a hit. I see how you can see this adds "depth" but to me it adds stupidity.

453 737

Would love to see it go as well or at least be drastically reduced down to 60% damage taken. 11pt Longsword stabs from safety are annoying. When I invest in a halberd build and hit people from out of reach I want to do my full damage.

Hyperarmor is NOT necessary to make lighter classes viable... light armored classes get big weapons or big perks and have to use these along with skill to win at 1vX. Tired of seeing Halberd/Zwei builds smash at 1vX because oh Hyper armor Trades rather than footwork and talent.

I dont even bother double parrying and its sloppy of me but it's so viable to mindlessly spam in 1vX as long as they keep feeding me.

Knight 25 51
  • 11 Feb
 NachoAU

I tried to say this ages ago but got swarmed by a bunch of gremlins who insisted it was a needed mechanic for 1vX to even be doable

144 351
  • 12 Feb
 Koda

While I agree that it should go, your reasoning I disagree with. Your entire opening sentence especially. I guess it doesn't matter though since we agree on the conclusion.

Knight 11 14
  • 13 Feb
 Gluten

I don't think I have played through all the patches but I don't remember that we ever got to test a clean system without HA / AP. I think it is at least worth a shot before the game is out.

Duke 5270 11754
  • 13 Feb
 Jax — Community Manager

We're looking into some changes for the riposte mechanics and parries, specifically parry-into-parry. Nothing specific yet, still testing out some ideas.

Knight 9 8
  • 13 Feb
 Fëanor

Can you try adding a visual que that someone is under the effects of hyper armour? I have turned around many times and traded into someone I didn't know had hyper armour. If I had known, i'd feint to parry.

Mercenary 188 442
  • 1
  • 13 Feb
 Izıl

@Fëanor said:
Can you try adding a visual que that someone is under the effects of hyper armour? I have turned around many times and traded into someone I didn't know had hyper armour. If I had known, i'd feint to parry.

Plz dont add any visual for honor bs
Personally i can always distinguish ppl having hyper armor or not just see if he riposites you or anyone else BAM not hard is it
L2p issue

Knight 9 8
  • 13 Feb
 Fëanor

@Izıl said:
Personally i can always distinguish ppl having hyper armor or not just see if he riposites you or anyone else BAM not hard is it
L2p issue

I think you misunderstood me. I'm talking about when u can't see the person Parry for various reasons; behind a corner, behind several other players or behind you.

Duke 20 32
  • 14 Feb
 Lumi

Agree. Unrealistic mechanic that forces the X to feint spam to avoid getting traded.

You're not entitled to win a 1vX. If you end up outnumbered, that's either your fault for getting isolated or your team's fault for dying.

Mercenary 920 1648

Hyper armour is extremely unintuitive, I preferred active parry because that at least makes sense intuitively. 1vX is supposed to be hard, artificially making it easier is not a solution in the first place imho.

453 737

@TheKingInTheNorth said:
Hyper armour is extremely unintuitive, I preferred active parry because that at least makes sense intuitively. 1vX is supposed to be hard, artificially making it easier is not a solution in the first place imho.

I have to disagree that active parry was intuitive... Too many of my back stabs bounced off and in some ways it felt like getting traded except my attack did 0 damage and there's did full. But yes Hyperarmor is almost as bad for the exact same reasons: Successful back stabs/flanks from safety are not rewarded and it gives the 1 in 1vX an artificial powerup.

Mercenary 188 442
  • 15 Feb
 Izıl

Both AP and HA are unitiative, but AP looked sick tbh, both pretty brainless tho

Knight 521 3237
  • 3
  • 15 Feb
 rob_owner

the stun on hyper armor gave a timing window that would guarantee damage, active parry after a certain level was extremely noticeable and you could parry after hitting someone in AP. It was not a mechanic that just gave you a free hit, was just a tool that prolonged your life so you could keep attempting to make plays if you knew how to use it, accounting for a lot of the game's unpredictable timings when youre easily hit in a 1vX, during a chamber attempt and riposte so the X in 1vX at most vampire away your stamina, not your health with damage reduced attacks.

It didnt make someone so menacing to attack that you'd rather opt to miss or feint or morph or morph into a miss or morph into a feint, and you could even hit around it to hit someone's back. A lot of people who got back parried by people in AP were just hitting their front from behind, and this whole talk of "insiders" is hitting someone's back from the front, which they're going to try to patch. I mostly think its a shame they completely scrapped the idea, at least to my knowledge as of writing this. There were a few moments someone hit my active parry during my chamber, and i feinted it, and they poo'd their pants, it was cool I thought, using mechanics together to get a hit off on someone, mechanics flowing into each other, same with dragging my riposte when someone hit me during active parry, i thought that was positively sick, the game didnt spoon feed me a free hit.

There was one time I was fed a parry and my character entered ultra-tough-mode so when someone hit me they were stunned out of blocking and I killed them by being fed a parry, comparatively, I did not think that was very cool but it was pretty funny. Its actually really funny right now in teamfights to feed the enemy ripostes on purpose and watch them hit trade your teammates, i'd recommend you do it now while you still can before its patched.

At a certain level, AP was pretty much a guarantee that neither party would take damage, I one time managed to drag someone's AP and hit them without clashing, it being on more than just riposte also made missing on purpose a tad less viable, because people would be more prone to chamber attempt so they could get that sweet supple active parry, and if you miss someone doing that youre probably going to get hit.

Riposte is more readable now than last builds, attacks are less instant, movement is different, riposte window is slightly bigger, you can drag your chambers better because it no longer has a speed boost, other various details are and will be different, I think its a shame to have to wait for the SDK to be able to test things like the reintroduction of active parry but if they are certain they never want to try it again then so be it i guess.

Neither mechanic is "necessary" for 1vX but I understand they're meant to spice up the combat and account for the game's less predictable and realistically unreadable timings and mixups and situations when facing off against multiple opponents. Theres still timing windows to take advantage of against X amount of players when you exclude either mechanic, they're just easily countered and most players wont take advantage of them which i guess isnt a bad thing?

The trade stun thing was just too much, as well as an affront to my vision since I am a recovering chiv player. All things considered, active parry was much fairer, allowed you to have fun with/use the game's other mixups (everything flows into everything), didnt guarantee anyone damage from its use alone unless they were very poo at the game, idk, i miss her. I havent seen her in months, we havent spoken or exchanged glances, I just want her back, to catch up, i want to know how active parry is doing, its been too long, hyper armor didnt treat me right and now I want active parry back, we left off on the wrong note and we've both changed and matured since then. if youre reading this, please talk to me again, i miss you

Duchess 650 2668
  • 15 Feb
 Stouty

Usually I don't fud mordhau but when you have so many players including these Tempest vets requesting to re-test active parry and it's met with a blanket hurr never ever it's pretty concerning

I guess we're stuck frantically calculating 2/3rd damages in our head whilst trading out our damn minds