Mordhau

Longsword

Knight 3244 6630
 Bodkin

@Runagate said:
"The 2pt weapons are much heavier than the rapier"

lol rapiers aren't particularly light swords

but it has thin blade hurr so must be light

I didn't screenshot it but he later said it was just for balance because of how fast the rapier is after I said exactly what you just did to him. Rapier is also 3 pts next patch too. Unfortunately that was in this picture and made him look bad. I am only trying to make the cleaver shit look bad and give insight into why LS seems to be overtuned.

But yes you are right, a rapier weighs about the same as a Arming Sword, heavier if it is one of the "military-style" rapiers that could still cut decent enough and not a dedicated dueling weapon like most civilian rapiers.

Civilian rapiers were just stretched out normal 1h swords, so they weigh about the same. Military ones were likely heavier like 3-4lbs, almost longsword weight, but don't quote me on that. The ones in game have fairly broad blades for a rapier, so it can be assumed they are of the military type, though they are quite short for a rapier (also a balance decision supposedly)

153 305

@Frise said:

@SherbershLemel said:
longsord should be 1 handable with shield

That's what bastard sword is for

i guess bastard sword isnt so bad option

962 1591

Cleaver has no reach and no cross guard... It would have the worst stamina compared to shortsword or even dagger.

Knight 2119 3832
 Runagate

It has ridiculous stats anyway. How did Crush think making a 1-point weapon able to two shot medium light torso was a good idea

Knight 3244 6630
 Bodkin

@Runagate said:
It has ridiculous stats anyway. How did Crush think making a 1-point weapon able to two shot medium torso was a good idea

Doesn't do that

There's not much wrong with it except for the fact that it out-stams the other two 1pt small weapons by a large margin and it 1 shots naked head when the 2pt axe cannot. It's just those are pretty glaring issues that seem to only exist to make the weapon fun to play with for Crush. Basically an Archer messer. It just outclasses all 1pt weapons besides Qstaff, and the only reason it doesn't outclass Qstaff is it serves a different purpose and has reach.

All the other 1pt facehug weapons are shit compared to cleaver. They all get 5 stam on hit, but cleaver doesn't get disarmed as quickly while doing quite a lot of damage overall for what it is

Knight 1232 3661
  • 6 Feb
 Frise

The fact that they had to make the rapier ridiculously short because they weren't able to balance it otherwise has always made me extremely disappointed.

Duke 5451 12801
  • 6 Feb
 Jax — Community Manager

pretend it's a sidesword

it is pretty much a sidesword but nobody actually knows what a sidesword is so we named it rapier

962 1591

Cleaver has disgusting drag/accel capability and you don't even need to feint/morph at the cost of stamina.

The most annoying skm matches end with some decent archer crutching against other decent players in 1vX using cleaver and winning due to its drag reach and blinding fast, yet high damage slashes... and the archer will rarely bother to pick up the GS or LS on the ground since his cleaver is so much more unreadable.

I've been meming with T2 cleaver and maxed perks load out and I shit on better players effortlessly, its like they forget to parry every slash and then my cleaver floats around any earlier parries. Realistically such a small weapon would be punished by being too short to protect the arms/legs and it would get stammed out, not to mention it wouldn't do shit to T3, T2 and even some T1 armors. Small weapons aren't encumbered by small parry sizes like in Chivalry so my opponent doesn't have any offensive advantage but reach and maybe foot speed if their armor is lighter than my T2. I will not ever get stammed out. I will get stamina on hit and hits are easy to land with cleaver... and its not like you need to morph/feint with it anyways. If I had better ping I could just gamble with it like I see many archers do.

Next time I play, I'm gonna try out cleaver/shield combo and see how cancerous I can get.

Knight 39 111

@Bodkin said:

@Runagate said:
"The 2pt weapons are much heavier than the rapier"

lol rapiers aren't particularly light swords

but it has thin blade hurr so must be light

I didn't screenshot it but he later said it was just for balance because of how fast the rapier is after I said exactly what you just did to him. Rapier is also 3 pts next patch too. Unfortunately that was in this picture and made him look bad. I am only trying to make the cleaver shit look bad and give insight into why LS seems to be overtuned.

But yes you are right, a rapier weighs about the same as a Arming Sword, heavier if it is one of the "military-style" rapiers that could still cut decent enough and not a dedicated dueling weapon like most civilian rapiers.

Civilian rapiers were just stretched out normal 1h swords, so they weigh about the same. Military ones were likely heavier like 3-4lbs, almost longsword weight, but don't quote me on that. The ones in game have fairly broad blades for a rapier, so it can be assumed they are of the military type, though they are quite short for a rapier (also a balance decision supposedly)

Well, what its in the game isn't a rapier, its just some kind of "small-sword" (a lighter weapon that would follow in the 18th century and later).
The term rapier arises in the Renaissance in Spain to designate a certain type of sword with a long straight blade, held in one hand.
Also, the myth that it is light, spread by movies etc. is just a lie since like you said, they weighed in that range.
Of course It would be unbalanced if it were implemented like it was in reality but I would have preferred not to implement it than to implement it misguidedly, in my opinion. (Just rename it by its name and all solved lol)

Knight 39 111

@Jax said:
pretend it's a sidesword

it is pretty much a sidesword but nobody actually knows what a sidesword is so we named it rapier

The side-sword is a type of sword popular during the late 16th century, corresponding to the Spanish "Espada Ropera".
I suggest you to name it small-sword since its the closest thing.
"The small sword or smallsword is a light one-handed sword designed for thrusting which evolved out of the longer and heavier rapier of the late Renaissance."

Duke 5451 12801
 Jax — Community Manager

HN-SH2203b_hanwei_schwert_seitschwert

sidesword

Knight 39 111

@Jax said:
https://www.battlemerchant.com/images/product_images/popup_images/HN-SH2203b_hanwei_schwert_seitschwert.jpg

sidesword

Yea... this are its specifications (since it can be bought):
Details:

  • Overall length: approx. 95.9 cm

  • Blade length: approx. 76.2 cm

  • Handle length: approx. 14 cm

  • Weight: approx. 1134 g

  • Incl. leather-covered sheath

  • Manufacturer's product no.: SH2203

So it is not whats in the game.

Duke 5451 12801
  • 6 Feb
 Jax — Community Manager

We abstract weapons, and in some cases rename them to make it easier for a layman to understand what it is supposed to do.

Knight 39 111

@Jax said:
We abstract weapons, and in some cases rename them to make it easier for a layman to understand what it is supposed to do.

I don't see any problem in naming it by its name, just by seeing it and the stats its enough to understand what its supposed to do (well there are stats for a reason)

Knight 3244 6630
  • 6 Feb
 Bodkin

I really didn't intend to hijack this into a rapier thread

209 269
 idiotgod

@Jax said:
We abstract weapons, and in some cases rename them to make it easier for a layman to understand what it is supposed to do.

what? nice PR spin...

Better rename Bardiche and Halberd, to Big Axe and Biggest Axe, respectively.

For the laymen.

Knight 2119 3832
 Runagate

@Jax said:
pretend it's a sidesword

it is pretty much a sidesword but nobody actually knows what a sidesword is so we named it rapier

Why the fuck? Why not just let people figure out what it actually is instead lf calling it something it's not? Might as well call the zweihänder a two-handed greatsword, no? I'm sure armor has a plenty of things unknown to most. What the fuck is a hounskull ot burgonet amirite?

25 41
  • 6 Feb
 machinegod

@Bodkin said:
Tbh I think most of it is people just wanting to use swords because people have some kind of fetish for them so they go out of their way to make them competitive. When the game first dropped, LS was 4htk on slash to T3 along with most sword-style weapons being weak vs heavy unless they were on the bigger side.

Now there's really not much difference between a "heavy" weapon and quicker swords, unless the weapon in question is one of the "really heavy" ones like ES/Maul

Like I don't mean to bitch but this is undeniable. Like against medium armour, these heavier weapons like big polearms (bardiche/halberd/etc) have a substantial advantage for sure, but you don't see much medium torso, or non-heavy torso in general, and its honestly weird for something like LS to be 3htk medium AND heavy on slash. Like its weird there's no htk jump.

I know that for the most part the damage values are balanced though, my only gripe is with LS's long drags and maneuverability combination. Its a barely slower than 1h-speed weapon with 3htk on slash and stab, with the floatiest drags in the game. It's just a bit bonkers.

And for anyone thinking that there must be some logic behind a lot of the balance decisions, let me show this:

wut.png

wut2.PNG

A lot of the decisions seem to be made on this arbitrary idea of what something is "supposed" to do rather than what it "should" do based on its price and the weapons it competes with in that price range. I am not trying be an asshole to crush but some of this shit makes 0 logical sense. Cleaver is the best 1h 1pt weapon hands down, apparently because it is "supposed" to be. Lmao why? Seriously Why? It's the same size as the dagger without any hand protection, which the dagger does have, but is somehow better at parrying? Lmao is this also why the 2pt Axe can't 1htk naked head but the Cleaver can? lol

Things like this are why Messer and LS are floaty as fuck at 5pts with good speed

Should we move back to having 4htk weapons on T3 armor? Obviously T3 would have to be nerfed in other ways if this happened, but it might make it more common to bring anti armor weapons and would help differentiate weapons more instead of half the weapons doing 3htk.

Knight 890 2463
  • 6 Feb
 Pred

So what would be a full list of weapons that are definitely better balanced than Longsword at the moment? It's probably not a long one.

For casuals it's likely going to be one of the worst weapons, because you need to know what you are doing to make it viable. Better get a fast weapon and people will just forget to parry. Or get a big one so they will just die in 2 hits. Or get a long one so in group fights you get to stay in safety.

Knight 39 111

@idiotgod said:

@Jax said:
We abstract weapons, and in some cases rename them to make it easier for a layman to understand what it is supposed to do.

what? nice PR spin...

Better rename Bardiche and Halberd, to Big Axe and Biggest Axe, respectively.

For the laymen.

He just didn't know what to say and jumped with that line of unjustified shit. Also, "it is pretty much a sidesword but nobody actually knows what a sidesword is so we named it rapier" sentence that has 0 sense "so its like x but I will call it y" 10/10, and yes, it is well known what a sidesword is or what its name represents today for the ones that like swords.
This is a comparison between a Rapier and a Sidesword:

ropera y sidesword.png

"We abstract weapons, and in some cases rename them to make it easier for a layman to understand what it is supposed to do." This sentence is so desperate I had to laugh at it, but I chose to answer with good manners and logic, no reply.
This comparison is between what could a Rapier, a Sidesword and a Smallsword be if there are still doubts:

smallsword.jpg