Mordhau

Accel/Decel meta and the lack of freedom.

1028 1659

What am I supposed to do with my riposte?

What am I supposed to do with my riposte? I can only delay it or accelerate it... but unless its a first frame hit or a last frame hit, chances are it's going to be blocked. Why should I have to basically spin to put my opponent into accel zone or the decel zone? Why is that the only real way to land hits?

Inside hits rarely feel fair.. after all they hit because they either came too fast to react to or because you tried to wait it out and be absolutely sure it wasn't a feint, morph or other delay.... and ate the hit. The best accels float for a bit so you aren't sure what it's going to do and then teleport into you... which is gross.

Drags look absolutely disgusting. Why would I want to slow mo my sword? The best drags start as an inside hit and then rewind or move to the side. You can squeeze every last ms out of a drag by simply matrixing your torso away/towards your opponent while also putting your opponent into the part of your screen where the attack will end. Your opponent sits there like an idiot while his parry fails and your weapon floats into him without the momentum to deal damage yet doing full damage. Drags, morphs are just super drags that cost extra stamina.

I feel like I'm playing a mod in Chivalry rather than the next great medieval title. This mod we're alpha testing removed reverses/spin drags but took out side hits and forces you to only accel/decel or cheese with new versions of the Norse sword... Accel/decel meta is so enforced that anything else like jump stabs, animation masking, shields, etc are simply cheese of some sort or another.


There is no freedom in this glorified version of comp mod. I cannot cancel my riposte, side stab/overhead, go under, over or around my opponents parry. I can only fully commit to my riposte while doing something totally un-intuitive such as dragging or insta hitting.

Empress 347 847
  • 23 Jan
 Soulcatcher

"I cannot cancel my riposte, side stab/overhead, go under, over or around my opponents parry. I can only fully commit to my riposte while doing something totally un-intuitive such as dragging or insta hitting."

I really don't play as much as I should, but maybe why I don't kinda stems from this. Just feels slow paced, sure some weapons are pretty darn quick, and you have to have a keen eye and good reaction times to parry some things, but in regards to footwork, I don't know... I just feel like a slow clunky bag of rocks trying to stay out of range/matrix/get around parrys etc. Basically just have to stand there and accel/decell/read feints and morphs, chamber something if you like chambers, maybe move backwards and forwards a bit.

As I say I haven't played in a while but that's how it kinda felt.

In regards to ripostes, well... what else do you do with it? you can just stand there looking dead at your opponent and ripose, he'll fuckin block it piece of piss. You can accel or decell and he'll have to watch your movements to decide when to parry. If you are given the ability to cancel your riposte, basically a riposte feint.... fuckin'... is that really better?

What else do you want to do with it? there is nothing really wrong with the concept, I feel you're just forced to rely on that to get most hits because some of the other mechanics aren't really well tuned, or maybe they are? maybe this is how the devs want it? Beats me, I find Chiv more enjoyable tbh. (Not implying Mordhau is "bad") Chambers? maybe I don't have good reaction times, or more likely it's just a case of spending hundreds/thousands of hours like in Chiv doing something before you actually feel they are a viable tool you can consistently use, but like I can't stand them, so I just naturally revert to how I played in Chiv, footwork, going around parries, accels/decells. But again, bag of rocks. I'm drunk.

Baron 1551 2079

Game's essentially a flinching contest..

Knight 3261 6668
  • 23 Jan
 Bodkin

Only thing I dislike about the game right now is that many people's playstyle is literally to accel over and over until the nature of latency provides a free hit. Im not joking, Ive had many duels where the guy I was fighting accel'd every attack. Now obviously this is predictable if someone does this, but good luck not getting a red parry eventually if they are using anything remotely quick.

1028 1659

@Lionheart Chevalier said:

Accel/decel meta is so enforced that anything else like jump stabs, animation masking, shields, etc are simply cheese of some sort or another.


There is no freedom in this glorified version of comp mod. I cannot cancel my riposte, side stab/overhead, go under, over or around my opponents parry. I can only fully commit to my riposte while doing something totally un-intuitive such as dragging or insta hitting.

I did not make this post to simply complain. I would once again encourage the devs to look into making offense far more intuitive for beginners. If I gave this game to newbies and told them to fuck each other up but didn't ever show them the basic techniques... they wouldn't ever think to accelerate/delay their attacks except by morphing/feinting.

They would simply be feinting/moprhing, attempting to sidehit/flank and they would prolly use shields. The day one of them decides to hard drag, the rest of the duelyard will call it an exploit and complain online. "Sorry noobs git gud"


Why isn't parry held? Why can't the meta be about getting around your opponent's defense as opposed to the clunky current meta of outlasting/hitting before an opponent's static arcadey-style-forcefield parry. The static, timed parry should have been left in Chivalry along with reverses. As we see every day in the duelyard, static timed parries encourage players to use floaty ambiguous attacks and jerky spazzy body/arm motions to land hits. High level players ditch the most retarded shit looking stuff and simply use formulaic overhead insta hits with overhead foot drags that are very difficult to read.

If a new parry is implemented, that can be held but requires high accuracy, then players will have to read where an attack lands as opposed to unintuitively deciding when and getting a free pass for location. Players can still accel into an opponents "hole" in their defense and they can also drag into another hole... however by dragging or making it floaty, they give their opponent more time to read the attack and move their parry into the correct position. Morphing/feinting will be about making an opening or baiting then punishing chambers or parries that committed too far one direction.

Shields won't be the redheaded stepchild anymore and can be balanced around more parry angle forgiveness, passive archer defense and stamina negation at the cost of armor/weapon points. You can also work smaller weapons into smaller parry sizes and give the expensive weapons larger parries but tighter parry turn caps, etc, etc. Realistically, leg hits should be very viable against small weapons by big weapons but small weapons get speed to punish misses and predictable behavior. Shields even the playing shield but don't become a must have. The 240 angles of attack might finally matter... Making parry tighter and drastically toning down the timing aspect would bridge the gap between 1h vs 2h and solve so many of the current balance quirks.

Stabs can be the hardest to read (just like in the current accel/decel/feint meta) this way but easy stab chambers balances this out and if chambers remain relevant then morphs to bait chambers will remain relevant.

The argument that tight parries makes XvX unbearable is very weak. If lunge gets toned down dramatically, then fights won't be so ping bally with players bouncing around and the most obscene,floaty side hits will have just lost most of their punch in both duels and especially in XvX. In 1vX, followup parries can get more angle/location forgiveness much like the current double parry feature costs less stamina. Intentional misses will not matter nearly as much as they do now where baiting the parry against the 1 in 1vX results in X amount of free hits. Intentional misses, feints, morphs, drags will still be valid tactics but now a player who misread can recover and still block followup attacks without being stuck with his arms at his side... which feels absolutely horrible currently. Also, the 1 in 1vX still gets to target switch but now he has alot more targets... in that he can choose to target person 1's legs, face or sides instead of only person 1. There will be so much more freedom. I think we'll see more realistic looking team fights that are less arcadey since players do not want to eat flanks/side hits from long weapons. Decreasing lunge in itself would make team fights look better.

Naleous once argued that making parry locational as opposed to timing, similarly to M+B, would make attackers look like they're having seizures... well guess what. THE CURRENT META IS ALREADY ABOUT MAKING YOUR ATTACK LOOK AS SPASTIC AS POSSIBLE. Make your seizure ridden norse sword body feint (or hell, do the same thing with zwei/messer) look like an insta-hit, make your insta hit look like the neutral animation, make your morph, feint as disgusting as possible or as smooth/neutral as possible. I see seizures every day in the duelyard already. Locational as opposed to a timed defense will make fights look better but if not... then it can only look as autistic as they currently do. At least parry lockout where you're stuck doing nothing because some guy intentionally missed will be fixed.

I spent too much money buying an alpha key from some guy that could have totally scammed me... and too much time writing this and other similar posts to be ignored or dismissed. Just think about what would look good and feel intuitive to people who never dealt with Chivalry's bullshit.. or people who think they're buying a game that isn't based 100% on doing Chivalry's stupid ass drags/insta hit mind games. Remember Dev blog 2 where a parry failed because it was a few inches too low? Think about people who decided they want the game after watching that.

Delay the game if you have to but do it the right way and don't base defense on something so archaic as Chivalry's parry.

Knight 37 34

Get good lionhart

Knight 738 3173
  • 25 Jan
 Mittsies

[sic] I spent [...] too much time writing this and other similar posts to be ignored or dismissed

don't take this the wrong way, it really is meant to be constructive critique, but maybe it's because you tend to write huge walls of text instead of concisely summarizing your points. you tend to exaggerate your viewpoints which only causes you to seem less credible. when you say shit like we should have held parry and shift the focus to more directional combat, nobody can take you seriously. when you say shit like "the current meta is about making your attack look as spastic as possible", you sound like a clueless noob who has less than 20 hours in-game. when you relentlessly compare the game to chivalry, all we can do is assume you hate this type of game and want something entirely different.

Baron 1551 2079

@Lionheart Chevalier said:
Remember Dev blog 2 where a parry failed because it was a few inches too low? Think about people who decided they want the game after watching that.

This is me xD

Delay the game if you have to but do it the right way and don't base defense on something so archaic as Chivalry's parry.

They aren't going to go and abandon timing based gameplay now. I am hoping they find a way to make direction equally as meaningful as timing. Having both to work with would open up the mechanics. Making them feel more freeing and less repetitive/restrictive/flincy.

1028 1659

@Mittsies said:

[sic] I spent [...] too much time writing this and other similar posts to be ignored or dismissed

don't take this the wrong way, it really is meant to be constructive critique, but maybe it's because you tend to write huge walls of text instead of concisely summarizing your points. you tend to exaggerate your viewpoints which only causes you to seem less credible. when you say shit like we should have held parry and shift the focus to more directional combat, nobody can take you seriously. when you say shit like "the current meta is about making your attack look as spastic as possible", you sound like a clueless noob who has less than 20 hours in-game. when you relentlessly compare the game to chivalry, all we can do is assume you hate this type of game and want something entirely different.

You're not wrong and I appreciate the wisdom in what you say. I really do hate this type of game though. I never cared about the stupid stuff in Chivalry though cause I got it for like $3 or something and it was fun.

Mordhau makes me write frustrated walls of text because I spent alot of money and thought I was leaving the bullshit of Chivalry behind while keeping the freedom. But Mordhau removed most of what I enjoyed in Chivalry and enforces the accel/decel meta I despise.

I want my mouse to feel like my offense and defense and for fights to look and feel like fights. Shields duels used to have this feeling but then they deleted that too. I dont have fun playing this game and we've all been to duelyards where people simply complain about how bland the current meta is.

Knight 738 3173
  • 1
  • 26 Jan
 Mittsies

The main issue is that we're stuck here on a broken patch with a shitty meta, completely kept in the dark. The best we get is a little tidbit like "that will be fixed next patch", which could mean a total overhaul, another experimental bandaid fix, or just a 25ms tweak that is somehow supposed to magically solve the problem. The devs rarely talk about their plans or long-term goals for combat, or what the ideal gameplay is supposed to feel like. We don't even know what role shields are supposed to play in the game, they've always just been this weird crutch that artificially bloats combat time. The lack of communication leads to both feeling frustrated and losing faith in the competence of the developers.

edit: also I want to make note that I'm mostly just relating to the community's frustrations here, personally I'm fine with waiting for a patch and my faith in the developers hasn't been lost (yet). Though, more transparency and an elevated level of discussion would be nice.

Knight 906 2497
  • 26 Jan
 Pred

@Lionheart Chevalier said:
Mordhau makes me write frustrated walls of text because I spent alot of money and thought I was leaving the bullshit of Chivalry behind while keeping the freedom.

That was my hope as well, but I've learned to accept that Mordhau is just Chivalry mechanics haunting us from the grave. It's like taking your bike apart, putting it back together and expecting a different bike.

We've been marked by Chivalry for life and we're doomed to suffer from it.

Mercenary 224 559
  • 1
  • 26 Jan
 Izıl

@Lionheart Chevalier said:

I cannot cancel my riposte

You can though, just very short window

Knight 1236 3672
  • 26 Jan
 Frise

I feel like the developers are wasting opportunities to try out experimental stuff. It's the alpha, it's the only time where they can roll out new ideas to see if they work. It's been 2 years and the combat has gradually gotten more consistent but still feels very incomplete. At this rate I doubt the combat will change much before release.

Knight 738 3173
  • 26 Jan
 Mittsies

@Frise said:
It's the alpha, it's the only time where they can roll out new ideas to see if they work

Steam_2019-01-26_10-21-12.png

Knight 1236 3672
  • 26 Jan
 Frise

They're not rolling out any new ideas regarding the combat. No drastic changes to make the combat more interesting or add variety and depth to it. Stop trying to stop discussion with smart-ass remarks and purposeful misinterpretations of other people's comments.

Baron 1551 2079

@Frise said:
add variety and depth to it.

I do believe they set out to make the perfect competitive melee game which still appeals to nubs.

I do believe they are just happy it is even remotely stable/balanced, so don't want to change anything unless it is noticeably unstable/unbalanced.

If they had more time/money maybe they could try to make the game the masterpiece it still has the potential to be... but it's okayish as it is?... i guess...

I am hugely dissapointed atm tho

Knight 1236 3672
  • 26 Jan
 Frise

As it stands, I don't see it garnering a big competitive playerbase. There are tons of fighting games with more depthful competitive combat, and Mordhau is wasting the swing manipulation system, which could have given it a huge amount of freedom, depth and variety at a high level. But if the whole competitive part of the game is gonna revolve around feints, morphs and timing drags, there's no incentive to spend 1000 hours in it when you can play a game that still has new things to learn after 1000 hours.

239 287
  • 26 Jan
 idiotgod

@Frise said:
As it stands, I don't see it garnering a big competitive playerbase. There are tons of fighting games with more depthful competitive combat, and Mordhau is wasting the swing manipulation system, which could have given it a huge amount of freedom, depth and variety at a high level. But if the whole competitive part of the game is gonna revolve around feints, morphs and timing drags, there's no incentive to spend 1000 hours in it when you can play a game that still has new things to learn after 1000 hours.

Ya but still unless you have 10 000 hours you can't possibly be qualified to criticize the game or make suggestions.

25 41
  • 2 Feb
 machinegod

Is there any reason why we can't make parry boxes smaller and slightly buffing parry time? I think adding more directional play would go well with the 240 system and help with the problem OP is describing, and make 240 more useful.

Knight 26 83

If it's an inside hit you can run into them and it wont hit you...