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Whiff Punishing

80 201
  • 4 Mar '19
 Seseau

Isn't GIRU heavily involved in the gameplay feedback loop with the devs? I was always under the impression that he gets a significant say.

Either way you are by far the most abrasive person I've seen in this community, which is saying something. Your answer to literally everything is "get good" and then you invariably descend into insults.

People like you are the reason why Chiv had its initial success and then failed to keep the tens of thousands of "noobs" it attracted.

Knight 941 2569
  • 4 Mar '19
 Pred

@Seseau said:
People like you are the reason why Chiv had its initial success and then failed to keep the tens of thousands of "noobs" it attracted.

Nah, Chivalry failed to keep the noobs because it made them rage at the game with all the cheese, Mordhau seems to be going the same path tbh imo.

There's been 4 months of development we don't know about, so maybe something will change, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Knight 513 1047
  • 1
  • 4 Mar '19
 FaffyШaffy

@Pred said:

@Seseau said:
People like you are the reason why Chiv had its initial success and then failed to keep the tens of thousands of "noobs" it attracted.

Nah, Chivalry failed to keep the noobs because it made them rage at the game with all the cheese, Mordhau seems to be going the same path tbh imo.

There's been 4 months of development we don't know about, so maybe something will change, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

He's probably talking about his involvement in the comp/balance loop and how his input will result in a very flawed game.

1430 2175

Stabs getting more drag kinda concerns me, I'm altogether opposed to making things floatier and I like that stabs require accuracy and are easily dodged/chambered (as they should be,) but on the bright side, maybe Z-stabbing will become viable for circumventing parry. If not, then it's at least a microdrag and will hold some value in fucking chambers.

301 875
  • 2
  • 4 Mar '19
 Naleaus

@FaffyШaffy said:

@Pred said:

@Seseau said:
People like you are the reason why Chiv had its initial success and then failed to keep the tens of thousands of "noobs" it attracted.

Nah, Chivalry failed to keep the noobs because it made them rage at the game with all the cheese, Mordhau seems to be going the same path tbh imo.

There's been 4 months of development we don't know about, so maybe something will change, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

He's probably talking about his involvement in the comp/balance loop and how his input will result in a very flawed game.

Cept he's wrong anyway cause Giru wasn't involved in Chivalry's early days and TBS DIDN'T listen to comp/good player balance early on and subsequently lost most of the their comp players by making the game pretty shit for almost a year.

People quit Chiv cause it was unbalanced, buggy as hell and hard to get into after people started getting good, and not because of people on the forums. As for in game toxicity, it's going to be 100 times as bad this once it releases.

Most of the people offering actual balance criticisms do so from a perspective of "Will this be good for the health of the game?" and not just "Hurrdurr skill ceiling." You want to have both. Assuming his feedback will result in a flawed game is pretty subjective, since you're assuming that all his feedback is listened to and that something you might not like is flawed in the first place.

80 201
  • 4 Mar '19
 Seseau

@Naleaus said:

@FaffyШaffy said:

@Pred said:

@Seseau said:
People like you are the reason why Chiv had its initial success and then failed to keep the tens of thousands of "noobs" it attracted.

Nah, Chivalry failed to keep the noobs because it made them rage at the game with all the cheese, Mordhau seems to be going the same path tbh imo.

There's been 4 months of development we don't know about, so maybe something will change, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

He's probably talking about his involvement in the comp/balance loop and how his input will result in a very flawed game.

Cept he's wrong anyway cause Giru wasn't involved in Chivalry's early days and TBS DIDN'T listen to comp/good player balance early on and subsequently lost most of the their comp players by making the game pretty shit for almost a year.

People quit Chiv cause it was unbalanced, buggy as hell and hard to get into after people started getting good, and not because of people on the forums. As for in game toxicity, it's going to be 100 times as bad this once it releases.

Most of the people offering actual balance criticisms do so from a perspective of "Will this be good for the health of the game?" and not just "Hurrdurr skill ceiling." You want to have both. Assuming his feedback will result in a flawed game is pretty subjective, since you're assuming that all his feedback is listened to and that something you might not like is flawed in the first place.

My last sentence was poorly phrased and overall just bad. It just baffles me to see such bad attitude from someone who apparently has a significant say in the game's balance.

My primary point was that you can't just dismiss every concern with "get good". The large majority of people who will play this game will not care about its potential competitive scene, and obscuring gameplay with weird, sort of nonsensical mechanics which are best for pro play seems like a bad move to me.

I think that if you put your hypothetical everyday casual Mordhau player up against someone who cftps, they will be very puzzled by the mechanic and likely won't be able to piece it together without somebody else telling them. It's a very logical process: you missed and left yourself vulnerable, therefore I can exploit this. Except not, because yada yada high level yada yada reasons. The argument that it costs stamina is not without basis, but to your average guy that parry looks and feels nonsensical.

Knight 337 778
  • 4 Mar '19
 AngelEyes

Woulda been cool to test and see cftp get it's own animation for a weak parry that gets trampled for a deducted amount of damage with it's own unique grunt sound and slight visual. Would come with it's own set of problems like everything else but a visual response to a punish will always be more satisfying than stamina wars.

Knight 1269 3811
  • 1
  • 4 Mar '19
 Frise

The fix is way simpler than that. A small window after comboing from a miss where you can't feint, say, 150 ms. This still allows CFTP for reasonable misses but allows blatant whiffs to be punished by attacking during their release. Blatant meaning, started the attack out of range, failed to feint it, kept running forward, and did nothing to avoid the punish.

Then you get to punish whiffs the logical way, with an actual reward for your punish, intuitively, like it works in any self-respected fighting game, but you still get to CFTP out of any whiff that wasn't an absolute retardation on your part.

Of course, half the argument against this assumes that this window would be huge and that any slight miss would be punishable with a free hit, because it's so much better if we intentionally misinterpret other people's points to push our "i'm so good git gud game no need change" agenda.

Knight 941 2569
  • 1
  • 4 Mar '19
 Pred

@Frise said:
The fix is way simpler than that. A small window after comboing from a miss where you can't feint, say, 150 ms. This still allows CFTP for reasonable misses but allows blatant whiffs to be punished by attacking during their release. Blatant meaning, started the attack out of range, failed to feint it, kept running forward, and did nothing to avoid the punish.

Whiffs out of range are only a small part of the problem, people overdrag you on purpose if their attack is going nowhere so they can get a second chance of brutalizing the animation. In a big group fight stamina loss means nothing. Or if you were one shot away from dead they will get the stamina back instantly if they kill you.

Combo only to parry but no combo to another attack when you miss would fix like 7* different problems and help clean up the spinning headless chicken pinball fights.

<asterisk here>

  1. Noobs not knowing what CFTP is
  2. Brainless spam
  3. Target switching into nothing, worrying about finding targets later
  4. Spinning
  5. 180ing then 180ing back with gamble stab
  6. Buffs footwork
  7. Buffs range
Duke 2266 4010
  • 5 Mar '19
 Huggles

@Pred said:

@Frise said:
The fix is way simpler than that. A small window after comboing from a miss where you can't feint, say, 150 ms. This still allows CFTP for reasonable misses but allows blatant whiffs to be punished by attacking during their release. Blatant meaning, started the attack out of range, failed to feint it, kept running forward, and did nothing to avoid the punish.

Whiffs out of range are only a small part of the problem, people overdrag you on purpose if their attack is going nowhere so they can get a second chance of brutalizing the animation. In a big group fight stamina loss means nothing. Or if you were one shot away from dead they will get the stamina back instantly if they kill you.

Combo only to parry but no combo to another attack when you miss would fix like 7* different problems and help clean up the spinning headless chicken pinball fights.

<asterisk here>

  1. Noobs not knowing what CFTP is
  2. Brainless spam
  3. Target switching into nothing, worrying about finding targets later
  4. Spinning
  5. 180ing then 180ing back with gamble stab
  6. Buffs footwork
  7. Buffs range

tbh if you can't combo after a miss you will see more headless chicken dancing.

Why? Because the common tactic everyone does after they realize they fuck up, is turn around 180 degrees, lower their head, and run away.

I think you should just increase combo time by a significant amount. If no one attempts to punish the whiff immediately after it happens, he CFTP like normal on the late punish or he just continues to combo period. If someone does punish immediately after, he can't do anything and if he DOES do the 180 shit he will just get immediately hit anyway so it doesn't look dumb.

However, if you CANNOT combo after a miss PERIOD people will realize they are missing and while doing so will begin to start running away which looks terrible and you see this happening all the time with naked maul strats and with the executioner sword.

Knight 941 2569
  • 1
  • 5 Mar '19
 Pred

@Huggles said:

@Pred said:

@Frise said:
The fix is way simpler than that. A small window after comboing from a miss where you can't feint, say, 150 ms. This still allows CFTP for reasonable misses but allows blatant whiffs to be punished by attacking during their release. Blatant meaning, started the attack out of range, failed to feint it, kept running forward, and did nothing to avoid the punish.

Whiffs out of range are only a small part of the problem, people overdrag you on purpose if their attack is going nowhere so they can get a second chance of brutalizing the animation. In a big group fight stamina loss means nothing. Or if you were one shot away from dead they will get the stamina back instantly if they kill you.

Combo only to parry but no combo to another attack when you miss would fix like 7* different problems and help clean up the spinning headless chicken pinball fights.

<asterisk here>

  1. Noobs not knowing what CFTP is
  2. Brainless spam
  3. Target switching into nothing, worrying about finding targets later
  4. Spinning
  5. 180ing then 180ing back with gamble stab
  6. Buffs footwork
  7. Buffs range

tbh if you can't combo after a miss you will see more headless chicken dancing.

Why? Because the common tactic everyone does after they realize they fuck up, is turn around 180 degrees, lower their head, and run away.

I'm assuming 180ing should be / will be fixed independent of these changes anyway. There were already some things done to curb this at some point but have been lifted - I think the reasons had to do with parry turncap and clunkyness it brought IIRC.

My other idea was an unskippable animation between whiffed attack and return to state when you can CFTP, but this is probably not happening because insta CFTP is ingrained in everyone's DNA at this stage and there shall not be a melee game without it.

Increasing combo time will just cause more eternal floats like old Poleaxe tbh.

Duke 5558 13284
  • 6 Mar '19
 Jax — Community Manager

some decent ideas in here, i like the feint lockout but it could feel unresponsive/clunky when the game won't let you do something, although the game doesn't let you do other things either because combat rules and stuff. just wondering how consistent it'd feel

anyways tho keep this on topic, no personal attacks please :)

1430 2175

You are a bad player.

Anyways, while we're on the topic of punishing misses... what about people who consistently 360 run away from facehug mess ups and force misses? While risk free-head down-sprinting away is a thing I don't think any new mechanics should be added to allow for whiff punishing and further complicate combat.

I honestly have no idea how this can be addressed, though, toning down lunge drastically will allow range play without ugly and infuriating running away bullshit to be absolutely necessary to pull off. Currently running away and some extreme matrixing is the only way to consistently pull off range play against shorter, slower load outs because of lunge... but then without lunge we might see even more run-away bull shit so who knows.

Back to whiff punishing, I like Pred's idea best, as much as I rely on miss-to-feint and miss-to-accel it's all kinda cheesy to be rewarded for missing at all. The worst is when you go to punish a miss and eat a followup attack or a gamble when you try to cftp mind game someone who missed. Removing combos from misses may gimp 1vX to a degree but it will definitely defang intentional misses while still allowing parry after a missed swing.

I don't see anything wrong with Frise' idea but I like Pred's better since I consider nerfing rewarded misses more important than misses being consistently punishable.

Knight 1269 3811
  • 6 Mar '19
 Frise

@Jax said:
it could feel unresponsive/clunky

Put it on a queue. If you try to feint during the punish window, it feints as soon as it ends, assuming you didn't get hit. Only veterans that played Chivalry or alpha Mordhau would even notice this change anyway, which is why mechanic changes should happen now, during the alpha.

Knight 5410 7408
  • 6 Mar '19
 Humble Staff

@Jax said:
anyways tho keep this on topic, no personal attacks please :)

Sure man, i agree. Things were in civil disagreement until this:

@GIRUGIRU said:
This thread only got traction because we're all bored waiting for patch, I hope I don't have the displeasure of reading something so stupid again

If you are going to let your little pet go unharmed by any of his own actions at least you could try to train him better.

177 457
  • 7 Mar '19
 Koda

I really hope the devs come up with something for this, I've made several posts about how CFTP is bad. I personally would prefer they just remove CFTP on misses, but keep it if you land your hit.

Mercenary 179 614
  • 7 Mar '19
 Stauxie

just delete game. can't bad game if no game

Knight 1269 3811
  • 7 Mar '19
 Frise

just get good, can't bad game if get good

Knight 3313 6811
  • 7 Mar '19
 Bodkin

@Stauxie said:
just delete game. can't bad game if no game

thinkingblackguy.jpg

17 49
  • 8 Mar '19
 Rhike

@Pred said:

  1. Noobs not knowing what CFTP is

I feel like this is a more important issue to address than removing hyper armor, devs, although those are mutually exclusive. Hyper armor screws with early gambles, whilst CFTP screws with late ones. However, there is a distinction of sorts - any new player can easily see the windup and release of the attack being performed, and they think there's going to be room for an attack inbetween. It's not like hyper armor where they just get insta'd from their teammate feed - which happens to all of us.