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Whiff Punishing

239 289
  • 25 Jan '19
 idiotgod

@Jinno said:
Here comes another post from Captain Retard, just typical crass behavior from everyone involved.

Hahaha hey I was hoping Captain Retard would catch on for a cute nick-name.

Knight 103 267
  • 26 Jan '19
 GAYFISH

@Huggles said:

@GAYFISH said:
Honestly I thought whiff punishing was in a great spot before the introduction of stam recovery on hit.
If you were skilled enough to force misses and punish your opponent's poor stam management while remaining aggressive you were rewarded by winning the stam war.
But now that stam on hit exists punishing whiffs and poor stam usage is much more inconsistent since you can regain anywhere from 13-20 stamina by landing a single hit.
I feel like this greatly encourages more brainless combo/morph feint spam because poor stamina usage is much more difficult to punish.
I really don't know why this mechanic was added, did anyone think it was necessary?

The issue is stamina being a huge part of gameplay in general imho. Stamina should be less of a balancer and more just as a barebones mechanic that keeps fights from lasting a zillion years. Stamina was simply too limiting in chivalry and I think it's changed for the better in mordhau, but that being said there are simply too many powerful moves solely "balanced" by stamina. Chief among all these being the chamber. Chamber is a read anything mechanic for the cost of stamina and it's pretty gay that way imho. And everyone just morph spams everything and it overall leads to combat feeling extremely non-committal and less than lethal with a lot of prolonged artificial survivability.

The thing is that the stam on hit mechanic adds a ton of artificial survivability though, because as long as you're able to land every 1 out of 2-3 hits you can keep being mindlessly aggressive and not worry about blowing your load too early.
The reason you see so much chamber botting and morph/feint spam is because the chances of you being punished for bad stam usage aren't good, especially if you land an occasional hit.

Duke 2266 4010
  • 26 Jan '19
 Huggles

@GAYFISH said:

@Huggles said:

@GAYFISH said:
Honestly I thought whiff punishing was in a great spot before the introduction of stam recovery on hit.
If you were skilled enough to force misses and punish your opponent's poor stam management while remaining aggressive you were rewarded by winning the stam war.
But now that stam on hit exists punishing whiffs and poor stam usage is much more inconsistent since you can regain anywhere from 13-20 stamina by landing a single hit.
I feel like this greatly encourages more brainless combo/morph feint spam because poor stamina usage is much more difficult to punish.
I really don't know why this mechanic was added, did anyone think it was necessary?

The issue is stamina being a huge part of gameplay in general imho. Stamina should be less of a balancer and more just as a barebones mechanic that keeps fights from lasting a zillion years. Stamina was simply too limiting in chivalry and I think it's changed for the better in mordhau, but that being said there are simply too many powerful moves solely "balanced" by stamina. Chief among all these being the chamber. Chamber is a read anything mechanic for the cost of stamina and it's pretty gay that way imho. And everyone just morph spams everything and it overall leads to combat feeling extremely non-committal and less than lethal with a lot of prolonged artificial survivability.

The thing is that the stam on hit mechanic adds a ton of artificial survivability though, because as long as you're able to land every 1 out of 2-3 hits you can keep being mindlessly aggressive and not worry about blowing your load too early.
The reason you see so much chamber botting and morph/feint spam is because the chances of you being punished for bad stam usage aren't good, especially if you land an occasional hit.

Ya ik, that's my point. Stamina being so crucial to gameplay at all is the issue imho. You're kinda confirming that it's a huge deal because the excess of stamina has made everyone way too survivable due to brain ftp and chamber spam that is way too powerful because stamina is so abundant.

Knight 103 267
  • 26 Jan '19
 GAYFISH

@Huggles said:

@GAYFISH said:

@Huggles said:

@GAYFISH said:
Honestly I thought whiff punishing was in a great spot before the introduction of stam recovery on hit.
If you were skilled enough to force misses and punish your opponent's poor stam management while remaining aggressive you were rewarded by winning the stam war.
But now that stam on hit exists punishing whiffs and poor stam usage is much more inconsistent since you can regain anywhere from 13-20 stamina by landing a single hit.
I feel like this greatly encourages more brainless combo/morph feint spam because poor stamina usage is much more difficult to punish.
I really don't know why this mechanic was added, did anyone think it was necessary?

The issue is stamina being a huge part of gameplay in general imho. Stamina should be less of a balancer and more just as a barebones mechanic that keeps fights from lasting a zillion years. Stamina was simply too limiting in chivalry and I think it's changed for the better in mordhau, but that being said there are simply too many powerful moves solely "balanced" by stamina. Chief among all these being the chamber. Chamber is a read anything mechanic for the cost of stamina and it's pretty gay that way imho. And everyone just morph spams everything and it overall leads to combat feeling extremely non-committal and less than lethal with a lot of prolonged artificial survivability.

The thing is that the stam on hit mechanic adds a ton of artificial survivability though, because as long as you're able to land every 1 out of 2-3 hits you can keep being mindlessly aggressive and not worry about blowing your load too early.
The reason you see so much chamber botting and morph/feint spam is because the chances of you being punished for bad stam usage aren't good, especially if you land an occasional hit.

Ya ik, that's my point. Stamina being so crucial to gameplay at all is the issue imho. You're kinda confirming that it's a huge deal because the excess of stamina has made everyone way too survivable due to brain ftp and chamber spam that is way too powerful because stamina is so abundant.

I think we both agree on stam currently being an issue, I just think it was in a great spot before the new stam mechanic and maybe you disagree.

Personally I like stamina being a big part of combat because it forces you to be more mindful and precise when fighting.
The last thing this game needed was rewarding spam even more and that's precisely what the stam recovery on hit does.

1430 2175

I really like stamina on successful hit. I would hate to see it go. Allows a player to stay in the game against multiple opponents. I believe it was added specifically to encourage players to be more aggressive... though it may reward this too much so.

Do you think reducing stam on hit, as opposed to removal, would be a good middle ground?

Shields in their current state would not be viable at all without it.

Knight 103 267
  • 1
  • 26 Jan '19
 GAYFISH

@Lionheart Chevalier said:
I really like stamina on successful hit. I would hate to see it go. Allows a player to stay in the game against multiple opponents. I believe it was added specifically to encourage players to be more aggressive... though it may reward this too much so.

Do you think reducing stam on hit, as opposed to removal, would be a good middle ground?

Shields in their current state would not be viable at all without it.

Shields already aren't viable and the stam mechanic doesn't change that. Stam on hit should probably only exist as a perk, with a nerfed amount.
Or maybe only on ripostes, cus fuck it might as well turn Retard Strength Ripostes into GodMode ripostes already. (Isjoke)
You have a point about it being good for team fights or 1vX but the consequences it has on smaller engagements seem too great to warrant it imo

Knight 941 2569
  • 1
  • 27 Jan '19
 Pred

We could at least test no combo on miss. Yes, people will run away and it will look retarded, but everyone is already running away every time they make a mistake with a parry, so this problem needs to be addressed anyway.

FTP and CFTP have too much of a role now, they are too strong, make exchanges go forever and bail you out out of 90% of mistakes. They severely limit the combat because a percentage of possible openings to get a hit in is constantly covered by a get out of jail free card.

My idea from the early days of alpha was to have manual FTP only, with an unskippable animation after the feint and before you can parry. BUT MUH CHIVALRY had insta one-button FTP, therefore we shall have it in Mordhau as well, as we're apparently not allowed to deviate from Chivalry in any way other than FHF and removal of backswings.

Knight 33 119
  • 27 Jan '19
 Jinno

I love just being able to be absolutely invincible in all situations because of FTP and CFTP, wait nvm im not and ur just fucking wrong lmao

Knight 941 2569
  • 28 Jan '19
 Pred

Grug no eat in 6 days. Tried killing boar with rock but failed and Grug lost an eye.

Maybe Grug should try stick with pointy rock to hunting better?

No, rock sometimes work so is no problem.

Knight 3313 6811
  • 28 Jan '19
 Bodkin

@GAYFISH said:
Honestly I thought whiff punishing was in a great spot before the introduction of stam recovery on hit.
If you were skilled enough to force misses and punish your opponent's poor stam management while remaining aggressive you were rewarded by winning the stam war.
But now that stam on hit exists punishing whiffs and poor stam usage is much more inconsistent since you can regain anywhere from 13-20 stamina by landing a single hit.
I feel like this greatly encourages more brainless combo/morph feint spam because poor stamina usage is much more difficult to punish.
I really don't know why this mechanic was added, did anyone think it was necessary?

It was added so that weapons with bad stamina matchups against heavier weapons, which also tend to be feint/stam-use heavy, would not feel as if they are on a 20sec timer to kill someone who is using something heavier before they get free disarmed and killed for doing nothing wrong really.

Basically faster weapons in a nutshell from old patches. Have to feint/morph to land hits with them due to a lack of meaningful swing manip capability, but thats exactly what the enemy wants so he gets a free kill off of 1 or 2 reads

Knight 103 267
  • 28 Jan '19
 GAYFISH

@Bodkin said:

@GAYFISH said:
Honestly I thought whiff punishing was in a great spot before the introduction of stam recovery on hit.
If you were skilled enough to force misses and punish your opponent's poor stam management while remaining aggressive you were rewarded by winning the stam war.
But now that stam on hit exists punishing whiffs and poor stam usage is much more inconsistent since you can regain anywhere from 13-20 stamina by landing a single hit.
I feel like this greatly encourages more brainless combo/morph feint spam because poor stamina usage is much more difficult to punish.
I really don't know why this mechanic was added, did anyone think it was necessary?

It was added so that weapons with bad stamina matchups against heavier weapons, which also tend to be feint/stam-use heavy, would not feel as if they are on a 20sec timer to kill someone who is using something heavier before they get free disarmed and killed for doing nothing wrong really.

Basically faster weapons in a nutshell from old patches. Have to feint/morph to land hits with them due to a lack of meaningful swing manip capability, but thats exactly what the enemy wants so he gets a free kill off of 1 or 2 reads

I really hope that's not the reason it was added, because adding a mechanic that affects all weapons while trying to buff only 1H weapons is the epitome of bad game balancing.

1315 2881
  • 28 Jan '19
 Monsteri

As far as I've talked with crush, it was added to encourage aggressive play and make sure that with the removal of zero-stam chamber there would still be a way to stay in the fight, especially with 1vX in mind.

Knight 513 1047
 FaffyШaffy

My dream is for Crush to be fucking fired and replaced with a competent, open-minded dev. Or for him to consider suggestions from more people. The thing I have learned going through this thread is that a high level of experience can create a disjointed point of view since they've become comfortable with a flawed system. They can't see the game through the eyes of an average player, insinuating that you're a noob if you cant deal with broken mechanics and adding nothing to the discussion in general. The fact that Crush puts up with and listens to this retard is tragic to say the least.

Edit: sorry necro, I was backtracking through huggles posts and discussions with other people and lost track of the forum dates. Also Crush if you want to ban me, you could always make up some bullshit about double accounting/necro but you won't fool anyone.

Knight 1269 3811
  • 3 Mar '19
 Frise

crush questions his sanity.png

I do believe Crush is open to change, judging by the few times I talked with him. He just falls into the circlejerk and ends up believing shit like "sidestabs look bad to noobs". But he showed intent to add depth to the game and make alternative playstyles viable.

Duke 2266 4010
  • 1
  • 3 Mar '19
 Huggles

Crush is just very vocal about his thoughts which I think is a very good thing, and he is conservative with the changes he makes which is arguably also a good thing.

He can be rude at times but he is fair and actually listens to feedback, regardless of if you know it or not. He probably reads all this shit too tbh.

We are lucky to have him as a dev man.

2428 4937
  • 3 Mar '19
 Maci

@Huggles said:
Crush is just very vocal about his thoughts which I think is a very good thing, and he is conservative with the changes he makes which is arguably also a good thing.

He can be rude at times but he is fair and actually listens to feedback, regardless of if you know it or not. He probably reads all this shit too tbh.

We are lucky to have him as a dev man.

lmao

Knight 1269 3811
  • 3 Mar '19
 Frise

Crush is good at game balance; game design is a whole other thing tho. Unfortunately a lot of people can't see the difference between both.

Knight 292 904
  • 4 Mar '19
 GIRUGIRU

what ? it's the total opposite lmfao

Crush's strength is game design. Fine tuning values and balance not so much because he's not playing comp at a top level where he can accurately see weapon viability and power

That's not to say he can't do it, mercs mod is proof of that. He's just not playing competitively so he doesn't have that perspective, and there's no pro play stats that he can look at to fine tune off of as well

2428 4937
  • 4 Mar '19
 Maci

Crush is good at making dance emotes

Knight 513 1047
  • 2
  • 4 Mar '19
 FaffyШaffy

maybe it's unfair to judge Crush from GIRU idk. I'll apologize to him once the combat squares up.