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Whiff Punishing

239 289
  • 1
  • 23 Jan '19
 idiotgod

@rob_owner said:

@idiotgod said:

@Frise said:
Does it make sense design-wise? Absolutely no, those were blatant misses. It's ridiculous that they get to parry out of them so easily.

I agree. Basic logic would dictate that the moments depicted in the clip are the perfect moments to strike.

@rob_owner said:
Morph, pretty much guarantees you a free hit right now unless they gamble you or you let them read you by morphing early. If you morph in those clips its extremely likely you would have hit them. Im not too big a fan of morphs countering parry in general so much but eh its how it is right now. These specific cases are how most people get hits off I imagine, run around a teamfight morphing or acceling people who were fighting other people (with stab of course).

Given the timings, a morph is just totally unintuitive. Why can't you land a hit using only spatial awareness? Why does it always have to devolve into "haha I made you flinch" How is that not the definition of "too straight forward, bland, predictable."?

Well if you consider what you just said, if you were able to land a hit using -only- spatial awareness, it sounds a lot more straight forward, bland, and predictable than the list of shit i spewed at you because its one thing you'd be using to get a free hit, instead of the setup for it.

Right now morph or feint is all you can do to get a hit. That's it. If you don't fool them with a morph or a feint you aren't getting a hit, there is nothing else you can do when it comes down to it. It fucking sucks. Why are you defending such a bad system as if it was actually designed to work like it somehow almost does?

Also no clue what youre goin on about basic logic, you got a fuckin textbook about this game tucked away somewhere?

What are you slow? I figured it was so basic I didn't have to explain it. If your arms are below your waist, in recovery, how did you block an attack above your head? It intuitively looks like the enemy is vulnerable when they can still parry. How is this good game design?

If they can move their arms fast enough to block in like 0.01 seconds from recovery then why didn't they just swing their sword that fast in the first place? The physics of the basics of the combat system are fucked.

Knight 292 904
  • 23 Jan '19
 GIRUGIRU

Noobs don't cftp, what's the issue

Over thinking alot m8

Knight 292 904
  • 23 Jan '19
 GIRUGIRU

"Gambling can ensue out of this, where someone whiffs and just comboes expecting you to feint the punish. Then you have to guess what they're going to do, because you can't wait for their input and then feint, the timing doesn't realistically allow for that. "

This is just wrong as well, morphs prevent this. It's not Chivalry

Knight 103 267
  • 3
  • 23 Jan '19
 GAYFISH

"Noobs don't CFTP, what's the issue?"

You're acting as if pressing parry after a blatant miss is somehow an advanced tactic. Anyone with more than 5 hours can easily CFTP more than 80% of the time.

But Crushed thought combo spam wasn't already incentivized enough with lunge and always available CFTP, so he added stam recovery on hits. Now combo spam is not only greatly enouraged, but it's basically necessary.

Knight 528 3386
  • 23 Jan '19
 rob_owner

@idiotgod said:

@rob_owner said:

@idiotgod said:

@Frise said:
Does it make sense design-wise? Absolutely no, those were blatant misses. It's ridiculous that they get to parry out of them so easily.

I agree. Basic logic would dictate that the moments depicted in the clip are the perfect moments to strike.

@rob_owner said:
Morph, pretty much guarantees you a free hit right now unless they gamble you or you let them read you by morphing early. If you morph in those clips its extremely likely you would have hit them. Im not too big a fan of morphs countering parry in general so much but eh its how it is right now. These specific cases are how most people get hits off I imagine, run around a teamfight morphing or acceling people who were fighting other people (with stab of course).

Given the timings, a morph is just totally unintuitive. Why can't you land a hit using only spatial awareness? Why does it always have to devolve into "haha I made you flinch" How is that not the definition of "too straight forward, bland, predictable."?

Well if you consider what you just said, if you were able to land a hit using -only- spatial awareness, it sounds a lot more straight forward, bland, and predictable than the list of shit i spewed at you because its one thing you'd be using to get a free hit, instead of the setup for it.

Right now morph or feint is all you can do to get a hit. That's it. If you don't fool them with a morph or a feint you aren't getting a hit, there is nothing else you can do when it comes down to it. It fucking sucks. Why are you defending such a bad system as if it was actually designed to work like it somehow almost does?

Also no clue what youre goin on about basic logic, you got a fuckin textbook about this game tucked away somewhere?

What are you slow? I figured it was so basic I didn't have to explain it. If your arms are below your waist, in recovery, how did you block an attack above your head? It intuitively looks like the enemy is vulnerable when they can still parry. How is this good game design?

If they can move their arms fast enough to block in like 0.01 seconds from recovery then why didn't they just swing their sword that fast in the first place? The physics of the basics of the combat system are fucked.


You can do any of the mechanics that can bypass parry: Morph, feint, drag, accel, morph feint, miss so teammate hit, hit around parry, i guess kick. You can do a mixup. I am not a fan of the morph one, me already explain why. This is repeating what I already typed but it not so many word now. You understand? That only preference i express, yes? I no defend anything, i only explain how game work, and I express skeptical point of view on idea of extra lockout window of feint then parry, could cause complications. Could be more trouble than worth.


A question that has plagued thinkers throughout all time. If your arms are below your waist, in recovery, how did you block an attack above your head? What happens when an unstoppable force meets and immovable object?
This game is not real life, it can look rough I guess but this frise-proposed mechanic does nothing to qualify your esteem wisdom in physics.

When someone is staring at you, they look vulnerable, because they are staring at you, face in your face, chest out, their weapon in idle means nothing in terms of defense. If they block you last second, their arms will move to parry position faster than your eyes can read this sentence slowpoke, if you have any shred of consistency in that noggin of yours then you'd agree. Forget about from recovery, what about from idle? Why not all attack as fast as parry if that how fast man can move arm?!? You want to know if im slow? you should see how fast i can combo feint to parry. Why dont you make a thread pointing out this pervasive issue, this strange anomaly that exists beyond this thread's scope, it seems this thread is about a small detail having to do with combo feint recovery, and what you take issue with is a larger whole. Somethin about parry, feint to parry, morph feint to parry, drew parry, combo feint to parry, all about the parries. Make a mordhau physics thread. You have bigger fish to fry.

Knight 103 267
Knight 103 267
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  • 23 Jan '19
 GAYFISH

Tried to edit a typo and instead quoted nothing, mobile is an awful platform :c

Knight 292 904
  • 23 Jan '19
 GIRUGIRU

this thread is legit hilarious

239 289
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  • 23 Jan '19
 idiotgod

@rob_owner said:
This game is not real life, it can look rough I guess but this frise-proposed mechanic does nothing to qualify your esteem wisdom in physics.

How about just don't make the animation look like a vulnerable state if it's not one? Like I know we aren't going for "realism" but "retarded" isn't the goal is it?

It's unsatisfying. It feels bad. It looks bad. It makes no sense. Gameplay could improve, why don't put your omniscience to the test? I don't understand why you guys think this way is the only way. Prob just friends with the devs who don't want to change shit that's hard to change

Knight 528 3386
  • 23 Jan '19
 rob_owner

your language is presumptuous and disjointed

i told you to go make a thread about what you think because you have a different concern than the topic of this thread so youre out of place. you take issue more with the nature of the game than this detail

retarded probably isnt the goal

gameplay could improve, it always can.

i dont know how i've convinced you im omniscient, but if i were then it would make no sense to put it to the test because i would be all knowing, so i wouldnt need to put it to the test because i would know. I dont know why you said that, which i guess means im not omniscient, because otherwise i would know.

I also dont get where you got someone saying this was the only way, you should quote that, i think i missed it.

I explain how the game works, thats pretty much it

devs have changed harder shit than some forced lockout during combo feint, so if im to assume anything, its the outcome of this particular change is not worth its effort. Assuming some friendship seems a bit paranoid. In general you seem pessimistic and cynical and im sorry you feel the way you do, I hope you feel better soon. Go ahead and make a thread, might be useful to engage in discourse about a larger facet of the game, who knows, not me because im not omniscient.

Knight 1269 3811
  • 23 Jan '19
 Frise

ye lol why make the game intuitive and punish mistakes this is hilarious stuff lmao

Duchess 806 3550
  • 23 Jan '19
 Stouty

but you did punish him, he took a huge stam loss

Now the frequent inability to punish disarm is a big problem imo but I believe this is being addressed next build

Knight 528 3386
  • 23 Jan '19
 rob_owner

instead of saying the word intuitive, use its definition.

that sentence makes it sound like you cant punish mistakes, a brazen exaggeration.

You dont like the ways you can punish a miss now, you want the way you want to be the way you punish this specific case.

Why stop here.

If someone feints you, and you read it, and you go to punish, they can parry. Do you think that is an oversight? Why not put a lockout in that case?

There is no default intuitiveness. The game has its rules. Some people think morph matching was intuitive, what I mean by that is they did it on instinct. I saw shroud attempt it a few times.

I thought the length of my blade would play a role in stab chambering so I could counter stab drags with a long zwei because of how the stab animations look. I thought that was intuitive. I never considered this combo feint thing to be intuitive because of the rules I accepted. The attack, recovery, combo, combo feint, etc. I accepted the mechanics. What i'd want is for recovery to be super obvious so you can read if you should do a mixup or just hit them, I would prefer that over your thing. Easily being able to tell if someone inputted a combo.

Knight 1269 3811
  • 23 Jan '19
 Frise

A slight stamina disadvantage is a small reward for a risky play, keep in mind that I started my attacks while they were in windup even.

A) Not enough encouragement to pull off risky dodges or matrixes that are a one of the best parts of the game
B) No instant gratification; Makes spectating less interesting and makes playing feel unrewarding.
C) You have to morph or feint to punish a whiff, giving the whiffer a chance to read you or gamble you. And bringing a great aspect of the game down to the most monotonous part of it. Dodging should be its own reward, not give you a chance to do what you're doing 99% of the time anyway.
D) By any sane person's common sense, if you're dodging an attack and throwing yours extremely soon, you've punished a whiff. It's the intuitive thing, "oh he's mid-attack, he's vulnerable, I can hit him"

One of the things that make outsiders extremely wet for the game are the real-time dodges, matrixes, crouches, whatever. Someone dodging an attack and hitting the other dude looks great. Someone dodging an attack and basically just going back to what they were doing before, is anti-climactic.

Imagine how a new player would feel if he sees someone miss, reacts to it super early, and the other dude still gets a parry. How is that good game design? How was he going to assume that the other guy had a get-out-of-jail-free car so he had to morph or feint to punish someone who was, by all common sense, in a vulnerable state?

Duchess 806 3550
  • 23 Jan '19
 Stouty

If you know he will miss then hitting him as he misses isn't risky, if there's risk involved then you are gambling

Matrices won't ever be a consistent strategy by themseves but seeing as you can be offensive whilst protecting yourself [chambers] there's a lot more room for this sort of play. Watch my vids for my coined technique of jumping drags for proof

Knight 1269 3811
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  • 23 Jan '19
 Frise

@Stouty said:
Matrices won't ever be a consistent strategy by themseves

Nobody said they should be, just that you should be rewarded for pulling one off. Properly rewarded, not just given initiative to keep going with the monotomy of the combat right now.

Watch my vids for my coined technique of jumping drags for proof

Ye that's easy to do, but it's not a risky play because you have the chamber to back you up. Even then, it really only works with footdrags as far as I'm aware. You can't chamber while matrixing a stab to have a safe-net because the spacing is really tight, and you'll just actually chamber the stab even if you wanted to dodge it, giving the opponent the ability to parry without having to CFTP.

And no Stouty, taking a risk isn't gambling lmao come on. There's a difference between attempting a risky play which's outcome is up to your skill, and straight up leaving something up to luck.

If you miss, you should be at a big disadvantage. Right now, you get a small stamina disadvantage and a slight spook, because if your opponent needs to morph or feint to punish you, that just means they have initiative. That's not punishing the whiffer, that's giving them an easy way out and making so that instead of dodges being individual plays, they become only setups to keep morphing and feinting.

Duchess 806 3550
  • 23 Jan '19
 Stouty

I guess they never miss, huh

Knight 292 904
  • 23 Jan '19
 GIRUGIRU

if u cant punish a miss it's just a l2p issue

Knight 1269 3811
  • 23 Jan '19
 Frise

weak bait

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  • 23 Jan '19
 idiotgod

If this combat system works better by going against basic combat intuition, then the combat system is just poorly designed. It literally punishes you for expecting it to follow some logical set of rules.

@rob_owner said:
instead of saying the word intuitive, use its definition.

Okay Roberto.

let me take a few swings at you with a baseball bat.
Let me know when it's safer to attack at me, when I am standing there with it waiting for you to attack, or immediately after I take a swing and fucking miss you like an idiotgod.

If you follow your intuition, you might survive. But judging from your last few responses, maybe not?