Mordhau

Whiff Punishing

Knight 1227 3615
  • 2
  • 22 Jan
 Frise

Currently CFTPs are so forgiving that if someone whiffs, they can block your punish even if you start your attack during their early release, or even during their windup in some cases, they can still parry for a slight stamina disadvantage.

Whiffing should be properly punishable, I don't think there's much to argue there. Right now you can attempt to punish and get parried, gaining a slight stamina advantage because of the FTP, or feint the punish and basically gaining nothing but initiative and a slight spook on your opponent. Gambling can ensue out of this, where someone whiffs and just comboes expecting you to feint the punish. Then you have to guess what they're going to do, because you can't wait for their input and then feint, the timing doesn't realistically allow for that. And if they just keep comboing and you guessed that they would parry, then you're the one being punished for trying to punish a whiff. Why should punishing a clear whiff be so unintuitive and unrewarding though?

I propose that the first 150ms (obviously just an example value) of a combo's windup should be un-feintable. You can still CFTP out of slight mistakes and spam comboes in teamfights without worries, but straight-up whiffs are punishable.

"But then there will be no interaction in whiff punishing where the whiffer gets to play mind-games"
Yes there will be; The whiffer can fake a whiff while staying at a safe distance and use footwork to stay out of the punish range, keep comboing, and punish the punisher's whiff.

As always, I must clarify, this is a game design issue, not a balance issue. Whiffs being unpunishable is unfun and discourages matrixing and dodges that everybody loves.

Baron 1551 2066

Jax said "they are looking into making misses more punishable" like last August? and that was the end of that.

Duke 2264 3985
  • 22 Jan
 Huggles

Restricting feint window would be bad tbh. I think you should just nerf the time it takes to combo after a miss.

2318 4631
  • 22 Jan
 Maci

you can't punish anything in Mordhau desu

Knight 527 3338
  • 1
  • 22 Jan
 rob_owner

A game of this nature is at its best when there are counters to counters, doing one thing can be countered and the counter to that counter can be countered. If thats not the case then the combat can get too straight forward, bland, predictable.

These people immediately cftp, they do it hilariously early. The combo feint window is very itsy bitsy right now. A fun thing to do is wait until they are out of the timing to combo feint. Time your attack so it hits them during that window, and only good fortune will alow them to clash you so they avoid damage or you might miss. Fun and hard to do because of its guarantee that you will land damage, you will only mess up if you are out of practice or potentially unlucky. Starting from that counter to whiff, i'll list off all the other things you can do.

They whiff, then get all up in your grill, you can see the outcome of their whiff and preemptively strike them. They can see the outcome of your punish and so during their combo, they feint and parry. The punish you perform may be a mixup, and thats usually where the game can be most interesting, mixups and counters to mixups, so heres all the mixups i can think of right now.

They get all up in your shit after a whiff in those clips, you can kick them. They are stam drained not only because of a miss, but now because of a kick, they lose health, if they parry you again then they lose more stam and you can perform another mixup with your initiative assuming you were not already an inch away from death on health and stam and they were full on everything. Also they cant CFTP a kick.

Attack, it will drain their stam, thats what you do in those clips, doesnt really counter CFTP like kick or timing abuse. Pretty low tier counter to whiffing depending on weapon stam stats but if you do other mixups then it helps you remain unpredictable so its only low tier of its literally all you do.

Morph, pretty much guarantees you a free hit right now unless they gamble you or you let them read you by morphing early. If you morph in those clips its extremely likely you would have hit them. Im not too big a fan of morphs countering parry in general so much but eh its how it is right now. These specific cases are how most people get hits off I imagine, run around a teamfight morphing or acceling people who were fighting other people (with stab of course).

Feint, parry recovery is pretty huge, they would only double parry you if they panic parry and you maxed out feint window and also picked your nose during feint. They can only double parry you if a drag would have bypassed their parry, or a morph.

Morph-feint, a little unnecessary but i guess you could do it.

Drag, would only really work on strikes and it sort of depends on your weapon, just delay, those nerds in those clips are parrying super duper early

Miss on purpose, mostly useful in a teamfight but it might give you a freehit in a 1v1 in some funny way probably.

Wiggle your camera at them/run at them and scream/press end, would probably be effective if you had a hitscan weapon, they would be open to receive damage.

Mix any of these up enough times and just striking will probably give you a free hit from the enemy having so much to contemplate, but you can probably settle for mixing up the morph one. Morphs are a massive counter to FTP, CFTP, off of stabs they're just hilarious, windows too huge I reckon, not sure what the reason for it being that way was, considering the stab anims, and the only reason morphs were broken for defense in the first place was removed (i reckon it was morph matching). Hopefully some anim changes will be enough to quell that but they should make the window a bit smaller to be safe then adjust after if necessary.

Duke 986 1377
  • 22 Jan
 PadanFain

Well said Rob bb this is silly

Knight 1227 3615
  • 1
  • 23 Jan
 Frise

All of what Rob said would still happen if braindead whiffs like these didn't have an easy way out. Making whiffs less forgiving would just make braindead whiffs punishable, like any braindead action should be.

Look at these clips, I'm starting my attack super early, in the last one I even start the attack when Elige hasn't even gone into release. They should not be able to parry in that situation. I should not have to play mind-games to punish such a blatant whiff. I already footworked or matrixed out of their attack and took the risk of attacking while they're in release or before.

Are there still ways to punish them? Yes. Does it make sense design-wise? Absolutely no, those were blatant misses. It's ridiculous that they get to parry out of them so easily.

Essentially everything that Rob described is just having the initiative. You force a whiff, and you get rewarded with initiative and a slight spook. Not enough reward to take risky plays and encourage creative plays.

From a spectating point of view, spectators fucking love matrixes and other dodges, and it looks great when someone dodges something and gets a free hit. Even better when the dude that whiff manages to avoid the punish with some cool play, like dodging it back. It's instant gratification; You dodged an attack, you get to punish. However in the current state, you dodge an attack, you get initiative. Essentially, nothing interesting happens.

Making whiffs punishable will not remove interaction in the slightest, that's ridiculous. All of those interactions will still happen in slighter whiffs or intentional whiffs.

Essentially this reminds me of reverses in Chiv. Yes, there were ways to deal with them, and they added some depth/interaction to the game. However, were they good for the game? Would it not have been better to add that depth with an something intentionally designed to do so, instead of justifying design flaws?

177 206
  • 2
  • 23 Jan
 idiotgod

@Frise said:
Does it make sense design-wise? Absolutely no, those were blatant misses. It's ridiculous that they get to parry out of them so easily.

I agree. Basic logic would dictate that the moments depicted in the clip are the perfect moments to strike.

@rob_owner said:
Morph, pretty much guarantees you a free hit right now unless they gamble you or you let them read you by morphing early. If you morph in those clips its extremely likely you would have hit them. Im not too big a fan of morphs countering parry in general so much but eh its how it is right now. These specific cases are how most people get hits off I imagine, run around a teamfight morphing or acceling people who were fighting other people (with stab of course).

Given the timings, a morph is just totally unintuitive. Why can't you land a hit using only spatial awareness? Why does it always have to devolve into "haha I made you flinch" How is that not the definition of "too straight forward, bland, predictable."?

Conscript 4458 6121
  • 1
  • 23 Jan
 vanguard

@Frise said:
Yes there will be; The whiffer can fake a whiff while staying at a safe distance and use footwork to stay out of the punish range, keep comboing, and punish the punisher's whiff.

But than we need to review the whole footwork thing, lunge, reach of the weapons etc. At the moment range play is basically non existent in duels at least. Most of range strategies here are simply not viable and the best you do is caveman your way into facehug and throw unreadable stuff at your opponent while using lots of armor and some medium tier weapon. There is no safe distance.

Its not LG in the last fight its me, poor LG what has he done to you to deserve this you fucking dumb, I`ll tell him right now

Duke 2264 3985
  • 23 Jan
 Huggles

Morph by far the best option here, but I think the fact that they can just gamble you is sort of terrible in and of itself and if it works it kind of turns their mistake into a fucking victory which is bs imho.

We know there are ways to deal with whiffs and whiffs are generally a disadvantage, but I think what frise and a lot of people feel is that whiffing should just result in a free hit period, with no mind games involved.

The game should be: "You missed, get hit, eat shit."

Knight 288 867
  • 23 Jan
 GIRUGIRU

U can just morph, if they gamble, accel, otherwise drag or feint

Misses are extremely punishing it's just a l2p issue

837 1446

@vanguard said:

@Frise said:
Yes there will be; The whiffer can fake a whiff while staying at a safe distance and use footwork to stay out of the punish range, keep comboing, and punish the punisher's whiff.

But than we need to review the whole footwork thing, lunge, reach of the weapons etc. At the moment range play is basically non existent in duels at least. Most of range strategies here are simply not viable and the best you do is caveman your way into facehug and throw unreadable stuff at your opponent while using lots of armor and some medium tier weapon. There is no safe distance.

Its not LG in the last fight its me, poor LG what has he done to you to deserve this you fucking dumb, I`ll tell him right now

This.

When I see range plays, it's usually someone going for face hug and kick whiffs or someone turning their back when falling for a feint and running away... while wearing T3.

Knight 527 3338
  • 23 Jan
 rob_owner

@idiotgod said:

@Frise said:
Does it make sense design-wise? Absolutely no, those were blatant misses. It's ridiculous that they get to parry out of them so easily.

I agree. Basic logic would dictate that the moments depicted in the clip are the perfect moments to strike.

@rob_owner said:
Morph, pretty much guarantees you a free hit right now unless they gamble you or you let them read you by morphing early. If you morph in those clips its extremely likely you would have hit them. Im not too big a fan of morphs countering parry in general so much but eh its how it is right now. These specific cases are how most people get hits off I imagine, run around a teamfight morphing or acceling people who were fighting other people (with stab of course).

Given the timings, a morph is just totally unintuitive. Why can't you land a hit using only spatial awareness? Why does it always have to devolve into "haha I made you flinch" How is that not the definition of "too straight forward, bland, predictable."?

Well if you consider what you just said, if you were able to land a hit using -only- spatial awareness, it sounds a lot more straight forward, bland, and predictable than the list of shit i spewed at you because its one thing you'd be using to get a free hit, instead of the setup for it. Using spatial awareness, you can matrix, and perform a mixup, inset mixup here. The only times i think an issue exists is when a mixup cant be countered and its why i ranted about morphs because its easy to dip your stab into someone's player model and morph out of it during their ftp window. Reading it is hard, they either have to let you read or you predict. Not a fan of that.

Also no clue what youre goin on about basic logic, you got a fuckin textbook about this game tucked away somewhere? Pass some notes from Professor Marko's class, Chapter 1.1 Basic Logic intro to Timings. Basic logic of what? Physics? Real life? Computers? Because if its of the game, thats nonsense. Theres a feint window, a combo feint window, when you feint either one you can immediately parry, so basically you can parry during feint recovery. Thats the basic logic. If they change that at all, then whatever they change it to will be the base logic of the game, unless you are literally Mordhau.

837 1446

@GIRUGIRU said:
U can just morph, if they gamble, accel, otherwise drag or feint

Misses are extremely punishing it's just a l2p issue

I'm convinced you only ever post to bait and troll your fellow Alpha testers.

387 440
  • 23 Jan
 JasonBourne

This page alone can be compiled into a book

Knight 1227 3615
  • 2
  • 23 Jan
 Frise

@GIRUGIRU said:
U can just morph, if they gamble, accel, otherwise drag or feint

Misses are extremely punishing it's just a l2p issue

As always, Giru ignores everything that has been said and says it's a l2p issue, because who cares about improving the game

Literally everything that you said has been said and acknowledged in this same thread, what are you even trying to accomplish? You clearly don't care about discussing or improving the game

I mean come on Giru, you said days ago that stricter parries would be bad for new players, yet you're advocating for whiff punishing to be as unintuitive as possible. Imagine a new player's reaction when they see a whiff, start attacking even before their opponent's release, and still get parried. How will that make sense to new players? Attacking someone while they're clearly vulnerable is not the way to punish a whiff?

Common sense dictates that if you start an attack while someone else is already attacking and they whiff, you'd hit them. Common sense dictates that if you miss, you get punished with more than a slight stamina disadvantage and a chance to gamble. Why go against what's intuitive? If you were designing a game from scratch, would you purposefully make it so that whiffs can't be punished by just attacking while the opponent is literally missing?

Knight 527 3338
  • 1
  • 23 Jan
 rob_owner

If you didnt propose a change, it would be a l2p issue, it would be like "whiff has weak punish" answers would be "you are punishing wrong you have to do it like this to do better!" "oh okay thank you i'll do that" "be careful sometimes they wont even combo and if you didnt do a mixup you would have hit them anyways!" "oh thanks i'll be sure to keep that in mind!" "i love you" "I love you too"

i didnt talk about your change, i just talked about how things are. Its a change you'd have to consider all the implications of, things like hitting someone, comboing, wanting to cftp to not get hit by someone in a 1vX, not being able to because of the forced combo no-parry-after-feint-recovery. You'd need to make an exception where you can do it if you land a hit, and im sure there are other variables im not thinking of. I have no preference so I didnt talk about it really, would lead to a slightly different game, and whether or not it would be a funner game would take dedicated foresight or actual testing.

Some serious introspection, like how effective would this new whiffer-mindgame be?? Why even risk it if youre probably just gonna get hit if you mess up for a non-guarantee reward of what? Hitting him instead because HE whiffed? Whiffer warz? Everyones swatting from far away, whiffhau, whiffer playstyle. Its a different game preference i reckon, not a detail i toiled around in my head for very long so i dont rightly care, im indifferent about this particular detail, up to the devs i reckon. Its marko's vision and all that.

Maybe you can sneak it into next build to test or maybe they can internal test it against bots and probably conclude that it takes away control or something and sure sometimes you feel like you messed up but there are ugly gross cases where you feel the game cheated you more than anything else, like when youre in release about to hit an enemy but your teammate off-screen brandishing a faster weapon feeds him a riposte so when you hit him you cant parry the hit trade.

Knight 1227 3615
  • 23 Jan
 Frise

@rob_owner said:
things like hitting someone, comboing, wanting to cftp to not get hit by someone in a 1vX, not being able to because of the forced combo no-parry-after-feint-recovery.

My proposed change wouldn't affect this situation, as right now, if you hit someone, you can cancel into parry even during release. That would override it.

Some serious introspection, like how effective would this new whiffer-mindgame be?? Why even risk it if youre probably just gonna get hit if you mess up for a non-guarantee reward of what? Hitting him instead because HE whiffed? Whiffer warz? Everyones swatting from far away, whiffhau, whiffer playstyle. Its a different game preference i reckon, not a detail i toiled around in my head for very long so i dont rightly care, im indifferent about this particular detail, up to the devs i reckon. Its marko's vision and all that.

I don't see how it would make a difference in playstyles. It's not like people would be super careful of not whiffing, they just would get punished for the occasional whiff, as they should. You don't need to play hyper defensively to not whiff. This is very exaggerated speculation.

In any case, this change should at least be tested. Testing it will be infinitely more useful than discussing it out of imagination. There is no better time than now to test core gameplay changes, because it's a closed alpha, and it's been two years since the alpha came out, with some issues like shields being boring, still unresolved. Doesn't make sense to speculate when we can just try it.

Knight 527 3338
  • 2
  • 23 Jan
 rob_owner

It would not override it because in this scenario i made the person combo after hitting someone, not parry right after hitting them during recovery. So it would be, as i wrote in that quote you quoted, a combo-feint-to-parry. It would be a particular case where the timings force you to trade damage and its up to you whether or not you think thats healthy for the game or if you think you'd want to make a special case for this situation.

Knight 1227 3615
  • 23 Jan
 Frise

Why wouldn't it? You hit someone, you can parry instantly. That would apply to your next combo to override the no-feint section. It would completely get rid of the ambiguity. (Obviously I'm saying that it should be made to work that way, not that it will out of the box)