Mordhau

Currently shield

Knight 260 706

How to kill shield User

  • Kick held blocks to death

  • Stamina drains the shield users. parrying a weapon or hitting the shield doesn't lose you stamina but for the shield user, it does.

  • Hit around the shield. Held blocks are punished by a slower turning speed. Hitting around it is a valid tactic

  • list item Hit shield users from the left side (from where you are facing) as shields are held on the right (from where you are facing)

  • Gang up on the shield users from multiple angles

Shields are meant to be boring that's what they are designed to do. Don't nerf the bloody thing for doing its job. If you are being ganged up by a group, chances are you are going to die regardless of shields being in the picture. In addition, shields are meant to a team player. I wouldn't mind blocking my opponent's hits if it means that it gives my teammates an opportunity to hit him. Shields aren't meta, don't freak out too much. They are outclassed by one-handed and two-handed weapons easily. Shields already have a heavy tax on stamina drain compared to non-shield users. Exploit that shit. As an avid shield user, I believe currently that shields aren't aren't great but they aren't bad. Removing "large defensive" shields is counterintuitive as it does nothing to address the problem of fighting shields.

Conscript 987 2012
  • 21 Jan '19
 ohshitsorry
  • list item
1430 2175

Shield duel outcomes feel like they're determined by loadout stats involved rather than the skill of the actual players. Tbh shields feel very clunky and play more like an after thought thrown in for looks than a valid play option. People often discuss 2h vs 1h balance but... 1h should almost always play alongside a shield. The discussion should actually be about 1h + shield vs 2h balance.

1h with shield should be leagues better than plain 1h if you have the points but currently most people say fuck the shield and get perks for their 1h or a second 1h. Shields are too clunky and cost too many points just to get stammed out in a real fight.

*Balance arbitrary turning speed on shields. Should allow shield users who fall for a feint to recover but only if they catch their mistake early on.

*Remove shield-come-down on hit so the shield stays up when fighting multiple opponents.

*Reduce the size of the parry box so shields have to be aimed as they used to be. I believe they should be accurate to size model but some may disagree on how much smaller they need to be. Either way, I think most will agree they're currently too big.

*The bigger a shield, the more stamina negation it should offer. Buckler costing more stamina than parry, targe costing as much as normal parry, heater/viking costing less than parry, kite costing much less than parry. The exact details don't matter but shield should be better than 1h... arbitrary stamina nerfs encourage alot of people to use 1h without a shield.

*Targe/buckler should have the quick hit recovery totally removed and maybe so should Heater/viking shield.

*All shields sprint while held except for Kite.

The basic idea behind all these points is that the smaller/cheaper a shield, the more accuracy required and less stamina negation... and the bigger and more expensive a shield, the wider the parry box and greater stamina negation to tank. This puts Heater/viking shields at the middle ground for dueling and team play, targe/buckler as safety options at cheap cost namely for archers but very useful in duels for very skilled players, and Kite shield as mostly a team play only shield designed to absorb alot of hits, fight multiple opponents but being easily kited in a duel setting.

Put some skill back into using a shield by requiring a shield to read attacks via location instead of timing. Removing the arbitrary and clunky nerfs make shields a valid and fun loadout for both duels and team play.

Knight 1269 3811
  • 21 Jan '19
 Frise

Can you still riposte after a held-block?

Duke 986 1381
  • 21 Jan '19
 PadanFain

@Frise said:
Can you still riposte after a held-block?

Yes

Knight 3313 6811
  • 3
  • 21 Jan '19
 Bodkin

Accurate shield hitboxes only felt bad on the targe tbh. Kite and heater were completely reasonable to use back then.

Honestly the more I play with and against shields the more I think those shield mechanics should return and then remove some of their gimps

Since smaller shields become shit with this, they should just be super parries. Buckler and Targe should buff 1h stamina retention to be very good, better than most 2h weapons, whilst providing a small 25ms parry duration buff so they become slightly stronger against drags than a normal parry. The reason for this small advantage is that 1h + buckler/targe would need to be worth the extra couple points when you could just get a superior 2h weapon instead with those points. Since generally 2h >> 1h, the buckler/targe user would have a better parry and great stamina when compared to the 2h user who has better drags and reach. Targe would be an upgrade to Buckler for 2pt instead of 1. Buckler and Targe should also not slow the user's movement speed like the big shields do.

Then heater, Kite and the Viking Round shield will be held blocks with more accurate hitboxes like those older patches. However, in doing this you give much more options to counter shield, so the shit stamina nerfs on them should be reverted. No point for that unless thats the only way to beat shield. They shouldn't have amazing stamina but they shouldn't get disarmed very quickly like they do now without getting kicked. I also think they shouldn't be so gimped on disarm after this change. Not 40 stam but maybe they should get 20? Same for buckler and targe especially since they wouldn't be as crutchy as a bigger shield.

Knight 1269 3811
  • 21 Jan '19
 Frise

I don't understand why they haven't made shields able to riposte only during the normal parry duration, so that you can hold the shields past the normal parry duration, but you won't be able to riposte. Encourages shield users to still time their attacks so that shields don't negate the only aspect of combat.

Parry size should be based on shield model too, except for the targe; Playing with targe when its hitbox was miniscule was horrible. All the other shields felt perfect though.

Knight 3313 6811
  • 2
  • 21 Jan '19
 Bodkin

@Frise said:
I don't understand why they haven't made shields able to riposte only during the normal parry duration, so that you can hold the shields past the normal parry duration, but you won't be able to riposte. Encourages shield users to still time their attacks so that shields don't negate the only aspect of combat

It would feel really inconsistent when you could/couldn't riposte since shield block is a continuous input rather than a 1 tap and done system like parry.

Like you can't distinguish the two without seperate binds where youll know for certain. A held block input could only be you tapping the rmb and it counting as 100ms of you holding the button down. Theres no way for you to know for absolute certain that you could riposte this block without held and tap being 2 different buttons. Like imagine someone hit your shield 1ms after that window is done, it would feel really bad that you couldn't riposte and honestly at that point there's not much reason to even use the shield.

Knight 1269 3811
  • 21 Jan '19
 Frise

No, what I mean is that you can only riposte if the duration of the normal parry hasn't passed. So let's say you hold your parry button for 300ms, you can still riposte off that. It's about holding the block past the parry window, not what your input was. I do see that it could feel inconsistent when you hold the block for around the time a parry lasts, and you don't know if the parry timing has passed or not, but maybe we could have it so that if the shield always stays up for at least the duration of a regular parry. So then if you tap the parry button, it acts exactly like a regular parry. If after the 400 ms have passed you are still holding the parry button, then you're holding the block and can't riposte.

Knight 29 63
  • 22 Jan '19
 NachoAU

They need to first fix the shield hitbox, currently all shields have a hitbox that goes right down to the feet making it impossible to foot drag, my personal rework for shields would be to butcher the turncap and remove shield ripostes so that the non shields user can actually get initiative on shield players.

Knight 3313 6811
  • 22 Jan '19
 Bodkin

@NachoAU said:
They need to first fix the shield hitbox, currently all shields have a hitbox that goes right down to the feet making it impossible to foot drag, my personal rework for shields would be to butcher the turncap and remove shield ripostes so that the non shields user can actually get initiative on shield players.

how to make shield unusable in 1 simple step

Duke 2266 4010
  • 22 Jan '19
 Huggles

@Bodkin said:

@NachoAU said:
They need to first fix the shield hitbox, currently all shields have a hitbox that goes right down to the feet making it impossible to foot drag, my personal rework for shields would be to butcher the turncap and remove shield ripostes so that the non shields user can actually get initiative on shield players.

how to make shield unusable in 1 simple step

Riposte is necessary for shield to be viable period, unless its role is switched to being purely defensive. However if you are going to nerf both its defense and offense shield is just fucking horrible.

This is 2 steps tho bodkin, not one.

Knight 1269 3811
  • 22 Jan '19
 Frise

"dude there's a leak in the roof should we put a plastic bucket or a metal bucket below it"

nigga you're gonna have to fix the fucking roof

The leak in this case, being that high-level combat revolves almost exclusively around timing. If direction play was viable, shields would be a defense improvement that is still engaging to play with and against.

239 289
  • 22 Jan '19
 idiotgod

Joking aside, I seriously think the problems with shields stem from the problems with combat as a whole.

The fact that they can't even implement something as basic as shields, something they knew they wanted since day 1 and hasn't been figured out yet, and the game was supposed to be out by now.

This kind of thing is what causes my faith in the devs to waiver.

252 866
  • 2
  • 22 Jan '19
 Cswic

The funny thing is that jump stabs actually feel good against a held block shield since you're just stabbing over the shield, yet are one of the more questionable attacks lately.

Personally, I don't know if I'd go as far as to say I'm losing faith idiotgod. My feeling lately is more like maybe it's just too tall an order or not practical to make everything work in a "competitive" setting.

I feel like the game plays best and was basically created for a 3/3/X and any of the 5-7 pt 2hander sword loadou and even they have had or have their issues. Just about everything else feels a bit borked or if it is viable, only viable in a cheesey way. Like mace and many 1handers are "viable", but they are viable because they can morph feint spam a lot and most 2handers can't really punish them. Shields are "viable", but again it's in a cheesey way. Weapons like bardiche and halberd are good, but a large part of that is solely because of their feint and morph animations.

Lighter armor is still only really taken out of necessity rather than by choice. Like can you argue any combination of T1 chest + 2 pt perk is equal to a T3 chest? Maybe a case could be made for flesh wound or if you're an archer, huntsman. So maybe the devs make some more 2/3 pt perks that are powerful enough to warrant give up armor for, then they have to also worry about how that perk would work with t3 loadout since 16 pts leaves a lot of room for a guy to take t3 helm / chest and a powerful 3pt perk.

Rush is probably the best made perk there is right now in terms of the purpose perks are meant to serve (afaik). It costs 3 pts, has a noticeable impact, and loses effectiveness if the user has more armor.

Knight 766 3328
  • 1
  • 22 Jan '19
 Mittsies

There's literally nothing left to talk about concerning shields, and we should just wait until they rework them from scratch instead of talking in circles. Held block is never going to feel good simply because paper-thin block angles are never going to feel good. They might as well leave shields exactly how they are currently (worthless) until they're ready to properly implement them. The community has already provided a ton of great ideas, so now we should just wait until the developers make an official statement on shields and what role they're supposed to play in the game. Keep in mind that the developers reading these threads for ideas are going to get burnt out if they see several paragraph long rants that more or less say the same things about shields that have been said a dozen times before.

239 289
  • 22 Jan '19
 idiotgod

@Mittsies said:
Held block is never going to feel good simply because paper-thin block angles are never going to feel good.

I like having to aim my blocks. I wish you actually had to aim parry too. I thought it was satisfying reading drags and shit in chiv. All the instas you became invulnerable to actually kind of balanced out the fact that you couldn't riposte. And using it to hide animations really pissed people off, especially if you had a shield bash.

See Chiv was broken, but it was broken so hard in one way, that the brokenness it had in another way would like balance things out. Giving you some more extremes of gameplay styles that is missing in Mordhau. In Mordhau they are working so hard to make everything perfectly balanced that it all feels flat and bland and the same.

Keep in mind that the developers reading these threads for ideas are going to get burnt out if they see several paragraph long rants that more or less say the same things about shields that have been said a dozen times before.

Yeah I bet they are sick of the complaints lol. I like the game still, I'm just here to remind the devs that you can make a game no nub will ever be interested in and it will still be successful if the core mechanics are solid. The Hardcore scene will recognise.

Baron 1551 2087
  • 22 Jan '19
 yourcrippledson

Remove parry and make the game revolve around forcing clashes and parry is now a perfect clash.

Shields are now fixed.

239 289
  • 22 Jan '19
 idiotgod

@yourcrippledson said:
Remove parry and make the game revolve around forcing clashes and parry is now a perfect clash.

Shields are now fixed.

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Duke 507 1200

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Fix the shields Crunch