Mordhau

(Poll) - Should 240 input be locked to 6 angles?

Knight 475 1686
 Mittsies
Should 240 input be locked to 6 angles?

The general consensus is that moving your mouse is fine as an alternate way of inputting attacks, but 240 procedurally-generated angles is a failed experiment that is holding the game back. Although it would be quite a task to do so, having an extra 4 uniquely animated attacks per weapon would be ideal for making the game as readable and clean as possible.

Currently 240 input provides a unique advantage of being able to attack from 234 more angles than binds are capable of. Although most players agree this advantage is negligible at best, it still feels strange for 1 particular control-scheme to be capable of more than any other, especially considering that binds are strongly preferred by the community and far more common.

The only real counterargument I've heard so far is that because 240 is "harder to use", it's fine for it to have the advantage of more control and precision that the 240 different angles provide. The truth is, however, that an incredibly skilled player who's gotten very comfortable with the 240 input system will not be at any significant disadvantage compared to someone using binds.

Some quotes:


@Naleaus said:
Having 6 angles only allows for angle specific animations that can help remove ambiguity while doing things to hide/break your animations. If the extra angles had any purpose other than obfuscation of what you're doing they'd have a purpose, but chamber angles are pretty lax and otherwise they really don't help you hit anyone at all.


@EatAtRedLobster said:
This isn't about "difficult-to-execute commands." This is about something that cannot be done without using one of two existing input methods. In other words it's not just hard to accomplish. For players who don't use 240 it's impossible to accomplish and creates a lack of uniformity.


@Pred said:
There are only 6 angles you need, "240 freedom" is not even a good selling point, there is no reason to compromise on more important issues just to keep it. Especially when 6 separate angles would open an additional possibility of OHs, Slahes and Uppercuts all having their independent turncaps, which seems to be a source of major clunkiness and restricted feeling.


@yourcrippledson said:
The precision is pointless and the freedom an illusion. The only reason anybody thought 240 looked cool was because of the combat possibilities it opened up for directional play (that is currently absent from gameplay). So in place of cool directional combat, where you have to duck, dip, dodge and weave around blades and use actual skill when striking and blocking, we got timing based combat with a specifically directional based attack instead. was there even a drawing board?

Basically it's like you implemented the 240 to simplify the controls, but since it actually performs an entirely different function in combat, it's become yet another thing I'm forced to bind. IMO The game would be no worse off without it.


@Lionheart Chevalier said:
240 is really cool. 240 is really pointless.


@Jax said:
I think mastering 240 is better than binds since you can be more accurate.


Well?

Conscript 121 297
  • 8 Jan
 Shovonem

I think both procedurally and uniquely generated angles are fine as long as there's only 6 angles. I don't think 240 is advantageous/better than binds. However, these hybrid angles look really bad. Like the game already has enough ways of manipulating swings. We don't need more overhead-slash hybrid thingy. It just make the game look wonky. And saying '240 angle was promised in Kickstater' is a lame excuse. We had kick stun in Dev blog which was removed. We have to adopt things that are good for the game.

Knight 491 735

Does anyone have any videos comparing people doing the same attack manipulation while using 240 vs binds? I would like to see the difference.

Knight 635 1589
  • 8 Jan
 Pred

@Shovonem said:
I think both procedurally and uniquely generated angles are fine as long as there's only 6 angles.

Procedural uppercut anims are terrible on both 1h and 2h weapons tbh.

Knight 28 67
 Vegust

There is no unique advantage, 5-10 degree attack angle difference matters nothing when you start considering other factors like timing and positioning. As you said, the directional play is almost nonexistent. If there a was a superior to default angle that could potentially let to misleading attack tracer or some shit everyone would just bind it, even the players who prefer directional input (if you think there are, show them). There are obvious disadvantages no matter how comfortable you are simply because your input overlaps with other important actions like body movement and tracer positioning that you need to do at the same time. For me, the most important one is trying to do a right attack angle while you are trying to catch a riposte in a 1vX. Maybe you could master instant pixel-perfect inputs for all 234 secret additional directions after like 10000 hours I guess, would love to see that.

The reason to keep this scheme is that it's much easier to understand compared to binds which are probably also 2-button binds for alternative attacks. It's intuitive and other popular games like For Honor and M&B have a similar control scheme (though they have a number of fixed directions). Now If you remove the additional attacks, an actual major disadvantage of a 240-degree system will arise - inaccuracy. Suddenly a 3-degree shift becomes a completely different attack you didn't want to do, right now thanks to procedural attacks it's completely smoothed out. This will make probably the main input mode for most people on the release actually inferior to binds, which will incline the game towards being a niche product for the small elitist community even more. The 240-degree system is also essential for lute and other perspective new mechanics.
Different degrees of freedom with different control schemes is not a new story, controllers have joysticks that allow regulating your movement more precisely, especially in many isometric games where keyboard leaves you with only 8 directions at max.

The real situation right now is that new interesting control scheme that allows to lift off some previous input restrictions for at least more visual concord between what you press and what you see for all players gets bullied by tryhard minority, because they are paranoid it can potentially be somehow abused by themselves using their own artificial control system.

1204 2716
 Monsteri

@Vegust said:
There is no unique advantage, 5-10 degree attack angle difference matters nothing when you start considering other factors like timing and positioning. As you said, the directional play is almost nonexistent. If there a was a superior to default angle that could potentially let to misleading attack tracer or some shit everyone would just bind it, even the players who prefer directional input (if you think there are, show them). There are obvious disadvantages no matter how comfortable you are simply because your input overlaps with other important actions like body movement and tracer positioning that you need to do at the same time. For me, the most important one is trying to do a right attack angle while you are trying to catch a riposte in a 1vX. Maybe you could master instant pixel-perfect inputs for all 234 secret additional directions after like 10000 hours I guess, would love to see that.

The reason to keep this scheme is that it's much easier to understand compared to binds which are probably also 2-button binds for alternative attacks. It's intuitive and other popular games like For Honor and M&B have a similar control scheme (though they have a number of fixed directions). Now If you remove the additional attacks, an actual major disadvantage of a 240-degree system will arise - inaccuracy. Suddenly a 3-degree shift becomes a completely different attack you didn't want to do, right now thanks to procedural attacks it's completely smoothed out. This will make probably the main input mode for most people on the release actually inferior to binds, which will incline the game towards being a niche product for the small elitist community even more. The 240-degree system is also essential for lute and other perspective new mechanics.
Different degrees of freedom with different control schemes is not a new story, controllers have joysticks that allow regulating your movement more precisely, especially in many isometric games where keyboard leaves you with only 8 directions at max.

The real situation right now is that new interesting control scheme that allows to lift off some previous input restrictions for at least more visual concord between what you press and what you see for all players gets bullied by tryhard minority, because they are paranoid it can potentially be somehow abused by themselves using their own artificial control system.

Here's a post of mine from June last year.

@TheKingInTheNorth said:

@Monsteri said:
As someone who used 240 since slasher and up till a few months ago

I'd prefer the 240 procedural system be removed, and replaced with 6 attack directions with each having a unique animation. Keep the input scheme, i.e. flick to choose angle and lmb to start the attack, but with only 6 possible angles.

It might be painful for the devs but this would be a gargantuan improvement for the game.

I can elaborate further

The in between angles are literally the only (tiny) advantage of using 240. I wouldn't remove them tbh, would basically be the same as removing 240 imho.

The tiny advantage that inbetween angles provide is vastly overshadowed by the disadvantages removed by limiting the system to only 6 possible angles. Currently the actual desired zones of input are tiny compared to the undesired ones. This makes using the system in conjunction with all the aiming requirements of this game a fickle balance. Simply put it's way too hard to use. It's a terrible system for even the casual players, whom are supposed to find it easy and convenient.

Capture.PNG

The reds represent zones of useless input. These are angles that have no value and only mess up your aim. Notice how they're the vast majority of angles provided? Yeah, that's ultimately why this system is bad. It requires way too much accuracy for no reason.

If you replace the 240 angles with only 6 angles, you increase the correct input angles hugely. A crude gesture of up or down, left or right is much easier to do and feels much more consistent to the player.

ympyra.PNG (1).png

Baron 1465 1901

They should remove 240. But they aren't going to remove 240.

Because i bet they spent like half of the development time trying to get this idea to work. This makes it hard to accept that they then neglected to implement it into combat in a meaningful way.
Also (would not be surprised if they wanted to keep 240 in game cause it would be very easy selling point for virtual reality in the future.)

240 feels like it was developed separately from the rest of the combat system. And it was. As Mordhau is basically just Chiv, and it's become obvious as to why Chivalry opted against copying M&B and was better for it.

240 was developed to streamline and at the same time increase the complexity of combat. But what we have instead is the largest barrier to combat so far. One that only complicates everything in the worst ways while actually reducing our combat options because 240 is essentially 1 attack...

So in chiv i have variable timings and damages and meaningful directional play.
In Mordhau i have 1 attack with 1 timing and 1 damage value that i can pointlessly choose to make from any direction on only the first attack of a combo...
To make up for this total lack of depth i am given the option to spaz out by button mashing feints and morphs in the hopes my enemy suffers sensory overload and panic blocks cause they are afraid of being insta-hit... Mordhau feels like a glorified flinching contest. Tbh Rock Paper Scissors gameplay is preferable cause while even less skill-based, at least you won't end up with ptsd.

I could make this post miles long lol

380 611

@yourcrippledson said:
I could make this post miles long lol

Ditto, I spent alot of money to buy a beta key (and there was alot of risk considering it could have been a scam) and there's not even any directional play. Dev blog 2 featured a failed parry due to a parry slightly too low but now to successfully parry you just need to keep your opponent on your screen. I can get some side stabs with Zwei which is cool but I can get alot with Estoc, Rapier, AS but those are very cheesy weapons.

The only weapon that I can consistently waterfall with is the Messer but Messer is so poorly designed that its identical to Chiv's and literally floats. It grosses me the fuck out. Currently directional play is reserved for cheesy weapons because the parry forcefield is so massive you have to do something absolutely outrageous to get around it. Also, waterfalls occasionally win a duel with Messer but they're very risky with little reward. Chances are your opponent will just walk under it and out of your screen... then HE gets to side stab you.

I'd like to see clearer animations and going down to 6 attacks (instead of 240 procedurally generated,) regardless of input scheme, that may have differing damage values/types would be ideal. If parry was tighter and required more accuracy and less strict timing then 240 angles would be a boon but currently 6 would be clearer and far less ambiguous. I appreciate the effort devs put to bring us 240 angles of attack but they're, unfortunately, pointless.

68 239
  • 8 Jan
 wizardish

Sorry, how are the inbetween angles at all useful or relevant? It’s one big meme.

Baron 1465 1901

@Lionheart Chevalier said:

@yourcrippledson said:
I could make this post miles long lol

Ditto, I spent alot of money to buy a beta key (and there was alot of risk considering it could have been a scam) and there's not even any directional play. **Dev blog 2 featured a failed parry due to a parry slightly too low but now to successfully parry you just need to keep your opponent on your screen.

Ya man. In the kickstarter video they show them stab at the feet then drag it to the opponents head. That's where i was like "Yes! this is what i'm looking for!"

But apparently that was back before they even tested combat with more than 2 people so they didn't know they would have to completely remove that.

I gave ZERO shits about the 240 angles. And all the shits about that sweet stab-drag. Literally the only thing i thought when i saw 240 was "that's gonna be a hassle, i hope i can still use binds."

So i wouldn't have backed the kickstarter if they didn't go out of their way display meaningful swing manipulation. And if I didn't find out you could still use binds i wouldn't have backed either.

So here we are a year and 1/3 into kickstarter and i have no swing manipulation to speak of, and 240 is somehow still the default control scheme after the community has basically declared it to be a failure.

Making alt atk reverse 240 attack angles would help. I have no idea why this still hasn't even been tested.

Knight 497 730
  • 9 Jan
 Uncy

Why should devs even remove the 240 system?

For me it's working really great. Don't remove it, we already have a choice to either use binds or 240 and its all good

Duke 659 949
 Stumpy

I think that in theory, a 6 angle snap is better. But in not sure until i try.
Should implement it for a single patch and let players decide if they like the new or old system better. Giving the devs a chance to revert back if it's not so good as you all think it is before release

212 338

maybe the point is that we have to miss, and make mistakes whether we are skilled or not... but its likely just a case of a system too far ahead of its peripherals. this game has a lot chivalry dna, cant hide from that no matter how many new sub systems you layer on top of it.

Baron 1465 1901

@Uncy said:
Why should devs even remove the 240 system?

For me it's working really great. Don't remove it, we already have a choice to either use binds or 240 and its all good

But have you tried playing 100% binds for a bit yet?

Knight 475 1686
  • 9 Jan
 Mittsies

I wonder how many people actually use 100% binds, like without any kind of "flip attack side" nonsense.

Baron 1465 1901

@Mittsies said:
I wonder how many people actually use 100% binds, like without any kind of "flip attack side" nonsense.

I still use alt for 2 attacks.
Scroll up - UH
Scroll Down - OH
MMB - Alt atk

plus I still use the 240 stab for some reason

It was definitely slower at first to click and scroll rather than just scrolling, but It seems the same now. Depending on your scroll wheel and the settings it has this might not be great for some mice? Anyway it's really nice how it puts all 4 of those attacks on one finger flick... Just you have to bind the rest because alt is basically dedicated to UH and OH this way.

Knight 475 1686
  • 9 Jan
 Mittsies

@yourcrippledson said:

@Mittsies said:
I wonder how many people actually use 100% binds, like without any kind of "flip attack side" nonsense.

I still use alt for 2 attacks.
Scroll up - UH
Scroll Down - OH
MMB - Alt atk

plus I still use the 240 stab for some reason

It was definitely slower at first to click and scroll rather than just scrolling, but It seems the same now. Depending on your scroll wheel and the settings it has this might not be great for some mice? Anyway it's really nice how it puts all 4 of those attacks on one finger flick... Just you have to bind the rest because alt is basically dedicated to UH and OH this way.

But have you tried playing 100% binds for a bit yet?

:^)

Conscript 4301 5563
  • 9 Jan
 vanguard

@Mittsies said:

@yourcrippledson said:

@Mittsies said:
I wonder how many people actually use 100% binds, like without any kind of "flip attack side" nonsense.

I still use alt for 2 attacks.
Scroll up - UH
Scroll Down - OH
MMB - Alt atk

plus I still use the 240 stab for some reason

It was definitely slower at first to click and scroll rather than just scrolling, but It seems the same now. Depending on your scroll wheel and the settings it has this might not be great for some mice? Anyway it's really nice how it puts all 4 of those attacks on one finger flick... Just you have to bind the rest because alt is basically dedicated to UH and OH this way.

But have you tried playing 100% binds for a bit yet?

:^)

Yeah, binds are a great solution in chivalry where we had 3 attack types. In theory, the 240 system is without a shadow of a doubt the system more suited to deal with fuckloads of angles, since it is literally 2 buttons that can make X different things. The 240 system is, in theory, a really elegant solution to having 12743189745 binds or having to hold ALT to do X angle. It solves this problem, but create new ones. Such is life tbh

Its tough, but I personaly preffer consistency over elegance. As I said time and time again, I wanna love the 240 system, have babies with it... This is so sad i'm gonna hear some despacito, see u around friend

Knight 497 730
  • 9 Jan
 Uncy

@yourcrippledson said:

@Uncy said:
Why should devs even remove the 240 system?

For me it's working really great. Don't remove it, we already have a choice to either use binds or 240 and its all good

But have you tried playing 100% binds for a bit yet?

not really, i mean i only have oh binded, if someone could guide me on what binds are the best i could try it tbh

Baron 1465 1901

@Mittsies said:

@yourcrippledson said:

@Mittsies said:
I wonder how many people actually use 100% binds, like without any kind of "flip attack side" nonsense.

I still use alt for 2 attacks.
Scroll up - UH
Scroll Down - OH
MMB - Alt atk

plus I still use the 240 stab for some reason

It was definitely slower at first to click and scroll rather than just scrolling, but It seems the same now. Depending on your scroll wheel and the settings it has this might not be great for some mice? Anyway it's really nice how it puts all 4 of those attacks on one finger flick... Just you have to bind the rest because alt is basically dedicated to UH and OH this way.

But have you tried playing 100% binds for a bit yet?

:^)

Yes.

@Uncy said:

@yourcrippledson said:

@Uncy said:
Why should devs even remove the 240 system?

For me it's working really great. Don't remove it, we already have a choice to either use binds or 240 and its all good

But have you tried playing 100% binds for a bit yet?

not really, i mean i only have oh binded, if someone could guide me on what binds are the best i could try it tbh

If you have an extra button or two beside your lmb, that's great for left slash.
I mentioned that I still use alt for LUS and LOS but it feels like one solid motion to me, so I don't even notice I'm pushing "alt" anymore when I do these attacks.
I still don't know if I should just bind 1 stab, or both stabs? Should I bind one stab and then keep 240 stab for high stabs? is 240 stab okay? no idea...

Binds are kinda mouse specific. just think about it, experiment, try new things...