Mordhau

Team Combat

837 1446

Last night we had a large amount of people on, more people on than I've ever seen before in a match. So much chaos, it was prolly the most fun I've had playing this game. There was alot of lag but I think this was mostly due to the fact that it was a West Coast Utah server with alot of Central/East players as opposed to netcode issues. It was glorious all the same.

Anyways here's my feed back regarding team combat.

I believe hyper armor should be toned down. It is far too rewarding to just keep spamming ripostes and if you're in T3 you can just keep dishing them out. It's pretty mindless right now. Taking 60% of the damage is more than fair for a flinchless riposte, the current hyperarmor feels really bad if you back stab even a naked person whose in riposte. If you're naked/glass cannon, mess up and get cornered by 3 knights than it should be by skill you escape not hyper armor mechanic.

Flinch while parrying is really annoying. What Im talking about is when you're fighting 3 guys and you parry one attack but another attack hits you in the back so now your parry falls and you take both hits. This gets infuriating when you have one guy feinting/morphing, one dragging and one accelerating hard and you pick what looks like it will hit first just for the accel to land first and leave you defenseless for the next two dragged hits. Flinching parries makes perfect, logical sense in that if you get hit you may drop your parry with the impact but it really takes away from the game play and makes 1vX harder. This is especcially true for shields fighting 1vX, shields especially should stay up when hit if not parry, too.

Shields are super mindless. I got tired of trying to read attacks through the lag and chaos so I just went T3, BS and heater. And man I simply spammed riposte stabs whenever fed and did far better than I deserved to. May as well have been using a rapier considering how deadly my stabs were and how people never even seemed to see them. I kept getting cornered in the hallways of tourney and would mindlessly cut my way out... No real way to get around my shield and so long as I land hits I'll get stamina. Not like any body's gonna read 1h spaz feinting and morphing (despite fighting people with hundreds of hours lol.) Shields need smaller parry box so you have to still read attacks. It should be a cushion against the timing aspect of gameplay but still require you to be attentive. Noobs will learn better with it if they have to actually wield it instead of simply holding it up mindlessly.

Shields are also kinda awkward to use. They feel clunky, especially in duels. Yeah, my opponents aren't gonna read my 1h cheese but they don't have to. They can just spam and superior ping will win with smaller/equal weapons. They can also just run away and spam... not like that can be punished because they can just do it again as I chase them... I can force a miss or two but it's easier for them to do the same to me indefinately... Shield duels drag out when I'm fighting someone determined to only kite while I show them Im not stupid and I only back step... kinda gets nowhere until one of us decides to risk it all (and lose usually.)

Horses are hella fun but crouched lances dominate Grad64 and there's not much to be done about it. Billhook's annoying on horsemaps but falls way short fighting infantry and Halberd alt no longer dismounts (it should). You can start an attack at oncoming horsemen but lance/spear will hit first and if not, then the horse will flinch you anyways. If I see someone starting an attack I just aim the horse for them and cancel that attack lol. Ezpz. I reccomend giving hits that land full speed horsemen extra damage but not as much as horseman get at full speed. So full speed horseman attack does more damage than infantry against horseman.. but more than normal. Reverse Hyper armor.

Why are fire pots in the game? I keep seeing them in spawns and I don't believe they add anything positive to gameplay. I use fireproof on alot of builds but it's still infuriating that these pyro load outs do so well. They're not as bad as naked/light maul though that run around unchallenged and bonk everyone on the enemy team from behind then run away to do it all over. They're practically cavalry.

Also can we get lunge toned down? Team fights devolve into getting fed a riposte, target switching while five swords hit your back doing minimal damage while you do full damage on some guy fighting someone else. Every weapon and loadout gets to do this, not just rats. T3 GS is prolly the most offensive to watch though.

Knight 3218 6543
 Bodkin

Billhook stab needs to be 3htk and its immediately a viable option

Hyper armour damage reduction is basically necessary for 1vX in lighter armour in this game because of the parry lockout time not being very long. The only problem I have with the system is the free forced hits that force me to be extremely passive because my whole team goes braindead feeding him over and over trying to get a kill. If I try and swing at all, Ill eat a hit because people dont take turns.

The only issue is that the mechanic works that way to prevent people spamming and just auto-queuing parry for when they hit you so you never hit anyone and just get spammed to death, so I don't know how to fix this really.

Duke 5417 12502
  • 7 Jan
 Jax — Community Manager

I agree on most points here except firepots, I find that they're really good on chokepoints, although we could look at some sort of spawn protection for them. We're also looking at nerfing some aspects of ripostes, but like most of the melee it's a fine line we have to balance.

Good post, and thanks for the feedback!

177 206
 idiotgod

It's almost like this is all completely untested and this game has no right to be released this year.

837 1446

Today I've read in the game chat that there will be an archer limit... I hope this is not true. I'd rather see archers themselves done right than an arbitrary limit set to how many over powered archers are allowed.

Also, not all archers are equal. Some mainly melee and carry an xbow/shortbow as a utility while others are dedicated archers countering other archers... some archers are very skilled while others suck... some are cancer but most are just easy targets. If there has to be a limit then it should be against only long bow since this is the only one that does real damage. I feel crossbow and shortbow are already in the perfect spot balance wise.

Knight 36 31

Shield/mace and naked maul are perfectly balanced.

177 206
  • 8 Jan
 idiotgod

@Lionheart Chevalier said:
Today I've read in the game chat that there will be an archer limit... I hope this is not true. I'd rather see archers themselves done right than an arbitrary limit set to how many over powered archers are allowed.

Also, not all archers are equal. Some mainly melee and carry an xbow/shortbow as a utility while others are dedicated archers countering other archers... some archers are very skilled while others suck... some are cancer but most are just easy targets. If there has to be a limit then it should be against only long bow since this is the only one that does real damage. I feel crossbow and shortbow are already in the perfect spot balance wise.

To be honest if the shooting mechanics are going to remain as easy as they are I was thinking there is going to need to be an archer limit if the game is going to be playable

Knight 692 2844
  • 8 Jan
 Mittsies

Having an archer limit would be an odd restriction to impose since there's no classes in the game. Are they going to limit firebombs too? Might as well limit everything at that point. "Sorry too many people on your team are using Spear, pick a different weapon."

Baron 1551 2066

In the absense of a well designed game we have Immersion Destroying Arbitrary Inconsistencies the game.

A well designed game fits together perfectly like a puzzle. Each system interacting to balance out the rest. In Mordhau we have a bunch of noticeably individually developed systems that use contrived arbitrary rules to crudely stick them together to make a disappointingly artificial feeling gameworld, that despite all the immersion breaking sacrafices, is barely functional as a combat system anyway.

Change archery so it fits into the game you made instead of just throwing more arbitrary shit into this game like you seem to have become addicted to doing.

-Make it so arrows do no damage and also do not flinch any piece of heavy armor.
-Make it so arrows do minimal damage and do not flinch medium armor.
-Arrows damage and flinch light armors.

-reduce arrow velocity and increase ark.

-adjust damage values accordingly

This way it is easier to block arrows and harder to aim. And it would be fun aiming for the parts of the body that aren't armored.

Flinch should be dependant on hit location, armor, weapon type. Just deciding no flinch across the board to me is a slap in the face to any sort of realism you were going for in the world and when displaying such lack of respect for something that is very important to me, it honestly cheapens the whole experience. Attention to detail IS important.

Knight 3218 6543
  • 8 Jan
 Bodkin

Archer limit is necessary otherwise the only way to balance it would be to make it shitty without ruining the rest of the game.

Firepots are gay but theres an easier solution for that.

Baron 1551 2066

From a realism standpoint it's literally retarded that instead of making heavy armor work really well against projectiles, they just make projectiles work really well gaianst quivers.

Like they could both accomplish the same thing only one makes less than 0 sense.

Knight 692 2844
  • 9 Jan
 Mittsies

@yourcrippledson said:
-Make it so arrows do no damage and also do not flinch any piece of heavy armor.
-Make it so arrows do minimal damage and do not flinch medium armor.
-Arrows damage and flinch light armors.

I legitimately cannot tell if you're trolling.

177 206
  • 9 Jan
 idiotgod

just make archers do 0 damage to everything but other archers. problem solved.

Duke 754 1197
  • 4
  • 10 Jan
 Stumpy

Lets buff archers.
•Perks giving them armor penetration of 40% more damage.
•Fire arrows engulf target in fire killing him after 5 seconds unless he jumps in water.

•A player engulfed in fire will spread fire to other players if he bump into them.

•Hitting legs will permanently slow your movement speed and make you do a halting animation.

•Ice arrows will freeze players, making them move slower, ice also gives the hypothermia debuff which applies slight dmg over time and slowing your attack and parry speed by 50%.

•Increase archer movement speed by 20% because of unarmored set bonus.

•Headshots hitting the frontal lobe will make the character turn into a veggie, character will be out of control, screaming and drooling through the slits of the helmet.
May become randomly enraged and attack friends and foes.

837 1446

Target switching only works so well because the attack starts and by the time it has switched it may be physically too late to parry due to reflexes/ping due to the speed of Mordhau's attacks. You need excellent ping to stare down an attack aimed a few degrees to the guy left of you, see it turn to you and parry at the last possible 25ms without any kind of guessing/panicking.

I feel as though target switches are something you read before the riposte even starts or something you predict using psychology: "I know counter-attacking the guy who fed him this riposte may be too obvious so he'll jerk it at me last minute, instead." The highest level players actually use reverse psychology when fed a riposte by turning their attack away from whoever fed the riposte, dramatically at someone else and then back at the original guy's face.

Again, it's too fast to read so either they parried just to be safe, predicted it or took a hit cause it was too late to parry. Meanwhile, whoever they didn't hit was either parrying to be safe, parrying because of bad prediction or spamming cause why not.

Because of this, fighting small groups in 1vX can actually be easier than fighting in a duel even for mediocre players if the X has low health/no armor. Especially considering how powerful hyper armor is... And Zwei/Halberd/GS can target switch from miles away dealing tremendous damage. Which leads to another problem with 1vX.

When fed a riposte by multiple advanced opponents, the ones within range will all collectively parry to be safe or start a chamber. If the X chambers then X-1 attacks will hit the person who just riposted. This becomes cheesy when fighting 1vX since it doesn't matter who you aim for and you're about to eat all the X's chamber attempts... some of which will be morphs/drags to out last your parry or bait a double parry etc etc. Oh and missed attacks meant to bait that double parry or any parry while the X then has their way with you.

302 405
  • 11 Jan
 ChuckJones

Archer limits?
Yeah that would just only piss people off that want to have fun playing as an archer

And since this is a game where fun is intended however it wants to be. Imposing restrictions will kill the fun out of it.

If people dont get to choose how they want to play they will just end up refunding the game or just not buy it at all.

Personally between horses, foot and archery would just need to be balanced. Nd if you get killed on the battlefield. Just suck it up nd move on

Conscript 118 286

I don't really know about the archer limits.
It was in chivalry and it didn't bother me. To be honest, I think it was better that way. Archer limits should probably only be in team based gamemodes. By doing it that way, it didn't really make the game bad or anything, but it would've been worse if everyone could go archer.

Knight 692 2844
  • 2
  • 12 Jan
 Mittsies

Dumb idea but maybe food for thought: when struck by a projectile, you take 50% less damage from projectiles fired by other players for a short period of time. This wouldn't affect a single archer firing onto a target, nor would it stop multiple archers from hurting their individual respective targets, but it would punish several archers all focus-firing one guy in an attempt to instantly drop him. It's like a 1vX mechanic for archery.

Addendum: it could also intelligently scale damage reduction to avoid the problem of getting hit by a projectile that does very little damage like a recurve leg shot then hit by a longbow head-shot right afterwards that does half damage. Instead of merely cutting the damage in half, it would reduce by half of the shot that dealt the least damage within a small window. Although this would mean inconsistent damage, it would certainly help prevent the problem of getting focused down by a firing squad of archers.

Knight 1810 2189
  • 12 Jan
 Void

They were between a big archer nerf and archer limit. They decided to do the second because otherwise archery would be useless and not fun to play.
Even if they nerfed it hard, a band of archers would still be annoying. With the archer limit, they may be fewer but they'll be more impactful.

Baron 1551 2066

Ya but i remember jax specifically saying they made projectile flinch retarded so they wouldn't need a retarded archer limit. But now we just have double retard. So we should lose one?