Mordhau

General Feedback Build #20

Knight 253 542
  • 16 Dec '18
 Gauntlet

Patch 19 & 20 (aka "Fortknight" patch)

Synopsis

Overall patch 19 & 20 have easily been the best patches this game has had. There is a lot of amazing additions to the game which will provide opportunities for individual expression in both combat and when approaching fights. Being able to set up spike traps, blockades, and play as support roles such as medic / builder is great for those who may not want to engage with the combat directly. At this point I'm dying to see how a full 64p frontline match plays out, with all the chaos of the battlefield. Much of the feedback below focuses on what I think should be changed or improved, however I would like to point out that most of the core of the game is more polished than many games that exist in my steam library.

I want to specifically point out changes from the changelog that I loved this last patch -

  • Increased kick's cosmetic tracer range (used for kicking ragdolls) so it can kick stuff on the ground easier (like dismembered heads)

I missed being able to kick heads off of player corpses! Fuck yeah!

  • Added blunt gore - bone breaks and head explosions
  • Improved gore mesh placement into limb sockets
  • Partial dismemberment prevents sticking the limbs into the ground now

This is the good shit right here. The bone breaks are super satisfying and sound brutal. Bones sticking out add a whole new dimension to the gore. Well done.

  • Added “Killed by” panel which provides information about your opponent’s health and stamina, as well as their equipment and perks at the time of death

While it is currently a bit buggy (stamina and hp values are swapped, and the profile icon is the last person who killed you and not the current), this added a lot to the death screen. I like being able to see whose killing me a lot and why. Looks professional as well.

Below is a long read of feedback I started compiling since patch 19.

General

  • Score - Suicide results in a reduction of 100 from score, 1 kill retracted from overall score, and a death added. This seems excessive for suicide. For a teamkill subtracting 1 kill from player score makes sense, but for suicide the death should be enough.

  • Gravity - Gravity still feels weak, as ragdolls falling visually appear to have a constant fall speed that doesn't accelerate quickly enough. I am sure there is some acceleration but I think the amount is not quite sufficient yet. This could just be a matter of perception as I have no actual insight to what parameters are set within the game physics. I also think the ragdoll bodies bounce too high from some falls. For references on good falling physics I would look to games like Steep and Overgrowth, both have fairly good fall/impact feedback on ragdoll physics.

  • Building - Self constructing buildings hurts immersion and causes direct impacts on melee combat. In a melee fight you can swap to a toolbox and construct barriers instantly, blocking players movement.
    Suggestion - Scrap the self building objects. When constructing something from the toolbox, the first stage is a few small poles sticking out of the ground. These can be walked through and have no collision. Striking the poles with a blacksmith hammer or wooden mallet builds the structure from this rudimentary scaffolding.
    scaffolding.jpg
    I feel this is necessary to be unintrusive towards the melee gameplay and for immersion reasons. Slowing the rate of construction will also help reduce build spam.
    Note - buildings in spawn should be disabled. If the changes for building are implemented the mallet / blacksmith hammer will have to be bundled with the toolbox otherwise new players will spawn with only the toolbox and not be able to interact meaningfully with the construction scaffolds.

  • Horses - An armored horse provides hit stop when striking the horse. However the other two unarmored horses do not. I think striking any of the horses should result in hit stop, otherwise the rider can be hit by unblockable attacks from below as they will come from underneath the horse / parry volume.

  • Medic - As a support role the medic bags aren't very functional. They need some form of floating UI icon so they're more visible, and I think having to look at the bag and press & hold F makes you too vulnerable for it to be worthwhile a lot of the time. Potentially the medic bag could be an aoe effect that provides the tenacious (50% faster hp regen) perk while in its radius and while out of combat?

Combat

  • Ragdolls - Hitboxes need to properly match the player model while in this state. I created a build that uses bear trap and crossbow, and I have shot through so many player models on the ground with no hit registration.

  • Flesh wound - The hit that triggers flesh wound should always credit that player with the kill. That is essentially the 'killing blow', all hits after triggering flesh wound should only add to assist points for the kill.

  • Spike traps should give the owner of the trap assist points for player/horse kills

  • Ladder combat - While in windup/release/(feint/parry/swing)recovery state on a ladder, I think fully climbing up should be disabled. Combat gets awkward towards the top of a ladder because if you climb up to get into striking range you might accidentally interrupt your own attack by dismounting the ladder at the top.

  • Shields - Defending against projectiles with a shield is almost harder than just parrying. The tight hit box means you can rather easily hit a headshot over the shield with throwables / arrows.
    In terms of shield balance I'm not sure much good will come of playing with the block volume any more, you can occasionally hit around a shield but it's not super reliable as a counter. Making the block volume too small nullifies the purpose of the shield (cost spent into buffing defense). I think a counter needs to exist in the form of a mechanic. I know shield health has been discussed before but I'd like to expound on this idea further. I think it'd be a good idea to have shields have a health bar that shares the damage modeling of weapons vs buildings. This way a counter to shields will exist in the form of a battle axe/maul/evening star + wrecker perk loadout. For shield players who don't want to be without their shield, resupply boxes could provide new shields when the original breaks. Shield health could even be made visible through damage modeling similar to buildings. With these changes you could also increase the lockout after being blocked to normal parry values, removing an inconsistent band-aid mechanic.

    • Pros: Addition of soft-counter to shields, and providing a way to quickly remove the shield from combat while not nerfing the overall strength of a shield through changes to the block volume or stamina management.
    • Cons: Analogous to stamina combat with shields but instead of stamina it's shield hp. Requires the shield user to pay attention to another hp bar independent of their stamina.
  • Elevation - On ramps and stairs combat gets weird with how quickly players can dart around an x, y, and z axis. When on flat ground you are only concerned about x and y, but with the addition of height one can force all but the longest weapons to miss consistently through descending or ascending diagonal movement away from their opponent.
    To resolve this issue, I think it would be preferable to have a negative speed modifier when ascending / descending stairs, ramps, or other natural hills.

  • Couched state - Couched weapons on horseback are far too powerful. These are one hit ko, unblockable, and have extreme reach. Here are a few suggested changes to this to make it more skill based to achieve this amount of power.
    A couched lance should have time restrictions. It looks silly to indefinitely hold your lance at a non-resting forward position. This would be exhausting to do. Currently there's incentive in Mordhau to simply keep your couched position up since there is no downside. I'd like to see couching deplete stamina quickly so a horse rider needs to be conscious of when they initiate the couched position. At 0 stamina the couched weapon will rise to a resting position.
    Secondly I'd like for the aim requirements to be tightened. Currently you can be mid turn with your horse while aiming wide to the side to catch players. This looks incredibly silly, like you're hitting them with the side of the weapon and not the tip to kill. A successful couched strike should not allow for such wide hits. Put your arm in a couched position and turn it out to the side and imagine hitting someone on horseback like this. You'd likely drop your lance or break your arm.
    To add some skill requirements to couching the reticle could have bounce instead of being perfectly still. The player would have to account for the reticle bouncing to the horses movement and add another layer to performing a proper couched strike.
    This might seem like a lot of nerfing to couched attacks on horseback, but I think there needs to be a skill requirement to an unblockable one hit kill attack. Contrast this to using the normal strike from horseback which is blockable, does not provide a 1 hit KO, and does not have the reach that couched strikes do.

  • Unarmed combat - Fists need either time based parries like the rest of the game or a small block volume that allows for left/ right and high / low mixups. Stam out with fist results in a stun that doesn't last long enough to score a hit - requires a longer stun or maybe partial damage for blocking on 'stam out'.

  • Kicks - Kick clash to kick is sometimes faster than kick clash to attack, making kick clash into kick a cheap way to lock a player against a wall. Would suggest slowing kick follow up on kick clash so that it's more ideal to kick clash into attack.

    • Door kick ragdoll is a bad mechanic. Creates awkward situations of players baiting with closing doors and kick spam. Would suggest swapping from a ragdoll to a strong knockback with flinch instead.
  • On disarm timings - Maul disarm combo can be interrupted by fists / kicks easily. If the strike that initiates the disarm is accelerated just kick / punch to interrupt the follow up.

Weapons

  • Billhook could use a damage buff to 33 damage on t3 torso stabs. It doesn't make sense that an arming sword is a more effective anti-armor tool than the billhook while costing two points less.

  • Halberd and sword weapons could use a tighter turncap to prevent odd looking adjustments to swing arcs mid-release. In particular, being able to pull against the arc of the swing so effectively makes reading accels / delays on these weapons especially difficult and results in some pretty visually jarring animations. In general turn caps should depend on where you're turning, not just a blanket cap on all direction. Ex: Turning against the arc of your swing should result in tighter restrictions than moving with the arc. This was primarily an issue with 550ms release weapons which I know are being adjusted, however should the adjustments prove to not do enough maybe this avenue could be explored further?

  • Rusty shovel can decapitate players. Doesn't seem correct considering it's a blunt weapon and should have blunt gore.

  • Ballista - At the moment you have unlimited ballista shots. I'd like to see some form of replenishable ammo crate near the ballista that you have to refill your ballista with in order to use. This would reduce ballista spam and encourage players to take accurate shots on higher priority targets. It will also create some downtime between volleys as players resupply ballista ammo. Good for immersion, not necessarily needed.

Audio

  • Footsteps - Generally these are far too quiet. I rarely hear someone approaching me from behind. Footstep audio needs to be much louder, especially when rat perk exists to turn already quiet footfalls into silent ones.

  • Voices - My opinion of the voices is the voice acting itself is really good, the voices are hysterical and the quality is superb. However they are very loud and could use a slight reduction of volume, and the voice spam is far too great. There needs to be a slight lockout for those who are just spamming the V key constantly.
    I'm not sure how much can be changed here as I'm sure recordings are completed. However I believe the current voices are lacking in response / command voice chat. There's no "Do the obj", "I've got your back", "Kill the archers", "Go left/right", "Behind us", or even "You're welcome". These are extremely important voice commands with a function. I would recommend combining insult and intimidate as they largely overlap.

  • Lute - Unfortunately the audio quality for the lute is rather poor. I know this is just a placeholder and is not a priority, but an update to these sounds to improve their quality would be greatly appreciated. The sound also doesn't travel as far as shouting does, or at least I hear shouts farther away than the lute. I know this is a bit of a pipe dream but getting it to sound more like this and less like this

Suggestions

  • Traps - It would be great to be able to build a vertical spike trap, so that if placed from a location where a player might jump / fall from they will become impaled.
Duke 986 1381
  • 16 Dec '18
 PadanFain

Nice write up just here to say stam out on fists does leave enough time for punish just has to be a jab. My idea for fist fighting changes is just make chambers cost no stam that way the skilled fister will have the stam advantage and skilled fistfights will be fast af king fu fights with back and forth chambers

30 42
  • 16 Dec '18
 Vaygr

Liked a lot of the suggestions. Some more sound warning of incoming catapult rocks would be great since the catapult is better than the one in chiv with rocks being faster.

Knight 253 542
  • 16 Dec '18
 Gauntlet

@PadanFain said:
Nice write up just here to say stam out on fists does leave enough time for punish just has to be a jab. My idea for fist fighting changes is just make chambers cost no stam that way the skilled fister will have the stam advantage and skilled fistfights will be fast af king fu fights with back and forth chambers

That is another direction that could be followed. However in my experience trying to chamber fists is so much harder than a normal attack due to the animations, that often the person trying to win by chambering will just eat more hits and lose the stamina war anyway because of stamina gain from a successful hit. This was the case before the changes to chambering were made so they were no longer a stamina free move.

If the animations were significantly updated for readability I think this suggestion might be ideal.

Duchess 6857 9820
  • 16 Dec '18
 Sir Zombie

Random thoughts xxd

@Gauntlet said:
Patch 19 & 20 (aka "Fortknight" patch)

And not even BR yet

  • Added “Killed by” panel which provides information about your opponent’s health and stamina, as well as their equipment and perks at the time of death

While it is currently a bit buggy (stamina and hp values are swapped, and the profile icon is the last person who killed you and not the current), this added a lot to the death screen. I like being able to see whose killing me a lot and why. Looks professional as well.

Can't wait till we will be able to customize the banner that is behind our name on the panel.

General

  • Score - Suicide results in a reduction of 100 from score, 1 kill retracted from overall score, and a death added. This seems excessive for suicide. For a teamkill subtracting 1 kill from player score makes sense, but for suicide the death should be enough.

I think it is fair that it punishes both the player with the score reduction and the team. As it could be abused if it didnt do that (Suicide before dying).
The death added doesn't really do anything except keep count.

  • Medic - As a support role the medic bags aren't very functional. They need some form of floating UI icon so they're more visible, and I think having to look at the bag and press & hold F makes you too vulnerable for it to be worthwhile a lot of the time. Potentially the medic bag could be an aoe effect that provides the tenacious (50% faster hp regen) perk while in its radius and while out of combat?

Def needs to be more noticeable but i think it would be fine if you just remove the hold time and make it instant instead.

Combat

  • Ragdolls - Hitboxes need to properly match the player model while in this state. I created a build that uses bear trap and crossbow, and I have shot through so many player models on the ground with no hit registration.

I feel like people are invulnerable for a period while getting up.

  • Flesh wound - The hit that triggers flesh wound should always credit that player with the kill. That is essentially the 'killing blow', all hits after triggering flesh wound should only add to assist points for the kill.

Very much this. Also shouldn't even count friendly hits after "death".

  • Elevation - On ramps and stairs combat gets weird with how quickly players can dart around an x, y, and z axis. When on flat ground you are only concerned about x and y, but with the addition of height one can force all but the longest weapons to miss consistently through descending or ascending diagonal movement away from their opponent.
    To resolve this issue, I think it would be preferable to have a negative speed modifier when ascending / descending stairs, ramps, or other natural hills.

Forcing people to fight differently on different terrain is fine imo
Also negative speed mods would hurt people just running around a lot

    • Door kick ragdoll is a bad mechanic. Creates awkward situations of players baiting with closing doors and kick spam. Would suggest swapping from a ragdoll to a strong knockback with flinch instead.

funny ragdoll game xd

Weapons

  • Rusty shovel can decapitate players. Doesn't seem correct considering it's a blunt weapon and should have blunt gore.

While it is rusty, it still an edge. Just like a spear.

  • Ballista - At the moment you have unlimited ballista shots. I'd like to see some form of replenishable ammo crate near the ballista that you have to refill your ballista with in order to use. This would reduce ballista spam and encourage players to take accurate shots on higher priority targets. It will also create some downtime between volleys as players resupply ballista ammo. Good for immersion, not necessarily needed.

Maybe just increase reloading speed. The ammo wouldn't actually delay the shots if people worked together.

212 347

i think the door kick ragdoll is necessary as some doors you are able to get stuck in by opening/closing at a certain angle. namely the tower door in grad near the large staircase.

Knight 253 542
  • 17 Dec '18
 Gauntlet

@Sir Zombie said:

  • Score - Suicide results in a reduction of 100 from score, 1 kill retracted from overall score, and a death added. This seems excessive for suicide. For a teamkill subtracting 1 kill from player score makes sense, but for suicide the death should be enough.

I think it is fair that it punishes both the player with the score reduction and the team. As it could be abused if it didnt do that (Suicide before dying).
The death added doesn't really do anything except keep count.

True, I hadn't thought of that. I guess I meant just minusing the score from the totals but not detracting the "kill" from the player on the scoreboard due to suicide. Like why does killing yourself make 10 kills contribution become 9? Especially in cases of accidental suicide (falling off the map).

  • Elevation - On ramps and stairs combat gets weird with how quickly players can dart around an x, y, and z axis. When on flat ground you are only concerned about x and y, but with the addition of height one can force all but the longest weapons to miss consistently through descending or ascending diagonal movement away from their opponent.
    To resolve this issue, I think it would be preferable to have a negative speed modifier when ascending / descending stairs, ramps, or other natural hills.

Forcing people to fight differently on different terrain is fine imo
Also negative speed mods would hurt people just running around a lot

While I do agree it modifies behavior I have noticed that using anything but a super long weapon on a ramp becomes a nightmare. I think slowing movement a little bit may make smaller weapons more viable in weird terrain scenarios. Not asking for a dramatic change just a slight one. Might also help with immersion if you move a bit slower as it does take more effort to run up a staircase than on flat terrain.

Weapons

  • Rusty shovel can decapitate players. Doesn't seem correct considering it's a blunt weapon and should have blunt gore.

While it is rusty, it still an edge. Just like a spear.

The weapon model seems kinda fat for that though. I'll look at it again.

  • Ballista - At the moment you have unlimited ballista shots. I'd like to see some form of replenishable ammo crate near the ballista that you have to refill your ballista with in order to use. This would reduce ballista spam and encourage players to take accurate shots on higher priority targets. It will also create some downtime between volleys as players resupply ballista ammo. Good for immersion, not necessarily needed.

Maybe just increase reloading speed. The ammo wouldn't actually delay the shots if people worked together.

True, this suggestion is mainly an immersion thing so there wouldn't be infinite ammo appearing out of thin air. A longer reload time might be a solution, it'd be cool if we could see the ballista bolt being loaded instead of appearing as if by magic.

14 27
  • 17 Dec '18
 private_ho

Amen to the buffing the billhook stab against T3s to 33, instead of the current 25. Although the stab also does 34 against T2 armor, so idk if that would need a corresponding buff or not.

1058 1696

Three torso stabs to kill T3 with billhook is reasonable however I definitely do not think it should get a buff against T2.

Can we increase its point cost to 4 or 5 though?

Count 449 1186
  • 2
  • 18 Dec '18
 Hadeus

I'd give a word of appreciation for a very well thought out & articulated post about the recent patches.
I agree with nearly all of the suggested changes (especially shield). Thank you Gauntlet!

In response to Medic

@Gauntlet said:

  • Medic - As a support role the medic bags aren't very functional. They need some form of floating UI icon so they're more visible, and I think having to look at the bag and press & hold F makes you too vulnerable for it to be worthwhile a lot of the time. Potentially the medic bag could be an aoe effect that provides the tenacious (50% faster hp regen) perk while in its radius and while out of combat?

Another way to make the Medic Bag AND perk Tenacious more useful, is this -

  • Increase the default health regeneration speed.
  • Replace Tenacious regeneration speed to default regeneration speed.
  • Create HUD marker

I have found many people, including myself, avoid using the medic bag due to how quickly one can regenerate health already. Even the Tenacious perk isn't that special, since we regenerate health so dang quickly, already. The other reason is that medic bags leave you vulnerable while your staring at the ground healing.

Make health regen slow, like it was in Chivalry - to make a health bag + tenacious more useful!

Knight 685 1851
  • 18 Dec '18
 ÐMontyleGueux

Good ideas here. Especially on the building part, because some people have been defeating horses by building a palisade instantly in front of one and enclosing it before the horse could escape which is a bit silly.

One thing though, I really disagree with losing a kill when team killing someone. I think the kill column in the scoreboard should accurately reflect the amount of enemies killed (it doesn't make sense to have -1 kill).

Knight 99 263
  • 2
  • 18 Dec '18
 GAYFISH

@ÐMontyleGueux said:
Good ideas here. Especially on the building part, because some people have been defeating horses by building a palisade instantly in front of one and enclosing it before the horse could escape which is a bit silly.

One thing though, I really disagree with losing a kill when team killing someone. I think the kill column in the scoreboard should accurately reflect the amount of enemies killed (it doesn't make sense to have -1 kill).

Makes perfect sense, if you're too careless or greedy to not TK when fighting you deserve that -1, their should definitely be a forgive option though.

Knight 2227 4000
  • 18 Dec '18
 Runagate

Yeah no point in removing a kill, it should just be the score reduction as that is what matters. And negative score makes sense.

Knight 3281 6707
  • 5
  • 18 Dec '18
 Bodkin

@Lionheart Chevalier said:
Three torso stabs to kill T3 with billhook is reasonable however I definitely do not think it should get a buff against T2.

Can we increase its point cost to 4 or 5 though?

Well, what's dumb about it not being 3htk plate on stab is that arming sword stab is 3htk plate

Like I get its 3pts and long but it makes very little sense for many of the 1h weapons to do more damage. If there is 1 thing the billhook should be good at, it is the stab. Only the English billhook (the heavy looking head of the 3) makes sense to do decent dmg to plate on swing but it's a skin so it doesn't matter I guess. However all 3 of them have very stout and long points on them. Makes no sense for the stab to be weaker than 1h sword, or 2h sword for that matter. Like it does less damage than a lot of these faster weapons and its not a very fast weapon itself. Its windup is 575ms, which is slower than LS and all 1h weapons but mace while doing less damage than all of these. It is also hardly longer than pollaxe, not near it's real life near-halberd length

I also think it needs an alt mode rework where it flips around when it chokes like pollaxe. Make it use that spike and get hitstop. Make it function like a 2h war hammer in this mode. Fast strikes

Dont get me wrong, I still love the weapon, but the thing about it is that logically, sentiment aside, there's not much reason to use it on a map with no horses.

The weird thing about making a cheap long weapon is that these kinds of weapons benefit greatly from footwork and using its cheapness for lots of t3 will honestly hinder its effectiveness imo. Its almost like it's only cheap because either A) it was difficult to find a niche for it amongst the polearms without it becoming too similar or B) to make viable bringing it as some kind of utility only item in your loadout solely for dealing with horses, rather than a primary weapon.

King 18 76
  • 19 Dec '18
 ClockTower

didn't read a word of it, but i saw gauntlet and hearted him

Knight 755 3279
  • 19 Dec '18
 Mittsies

Excellent feedback and suggestions.

Here are some things I would add to this:

Medic bags should probably be removed entirely and replaced with something else. Competitive sweaties probably won't even bother with healing stuff, and the game takes a huge immersion hit when you have some magical healing bag with a big healing symbol floating above it. Immersion is super important for casuals, and I think the medic bag can only hurt that right now. I think they should focus more on medics directly healing allies. I've talked about the possibility of poison, permanent wounds, etc. that medic players can relieve their allies of to make medics more useful. At the end of the day: healing alone probably won't be enough, to justify a full "Healer" role.

I agree that flesh wound should reward you with the kill, but only after they die, otherwise the on-screen kill notification/popup/hitmarker stuff will confuse players as this assumed-dead man is still attacking them. It should also be very obvious when you've triggered their flesh wound perk, because sometimes it's not, especially if you don't have audio enabled. A unique visual effect other than just their limb falling off would be very helpful.

I too hate that players can instantly jump up or down with elevation. Not only does it make fights feel inconsistent, it can be used in the same way jump-drags are to artificially manipulate your weapon position. Unfortunately speed penalties when walking down stairs would feel like complete trash, and I'd hate elevation even more. Right now I feel like this is a map design issue moreso than anything else.

Door kick ragdoll is pretty stupid, but it's also very fun, I wouldn't remove it but it should definitely be more consistent somehow. I feel like the door just flies right through people all the time.

Knight 253 542
  • 19 Dec '18
 Gauntlet

@Mittsies said:
At the end of the day: healing alone probably won't be enough, to justify a full "Healer" role.

This is very true, without some alternative mechanics or dramatic changes to how our health regenerates a healer role will likely not be very useful. Personally I like medic bags / healer type characters so I'd be okay with these healing items having a much more important role through health regen changes; for example slower regen or only partial regen to a certain point. In terms of immersion - a healing bag makes about as much sense as your wounds auto-repairing over time. I really don't think it's going to affect player immersion to see a small floating ui icon to indicate a medic bag location. Could even make it toggleable for those who really don't want to see it.

Door kick ragdoll is pretty stupid, but it's also very fun, I wouldn't remove it but it should definitely be more consistent somehow. I feel like the door just flies right through people all the time.

I strongly dislike the interaction of door kick. It results in players baiting w/ closing the door and kicking it to try and force the knockdown. The reason it goes through people is it only detects when they're in windup or release, which is a rather confusing stipulation for anyone seeing the door kick go through a player with no reaction.

Sellsword 679 2144
  • 1 Jan
 Moses
This comment was deleted.