Mordhau

Community Shield Rework

Conscript 112 270
 Shovonem

There are many shield related topics out there. I have gathered ideas from different people (especially Wizardish, ÐMontyleGueux, Monsteri) and added my own ideas for a shield rework. I believe shield should be balanced considering both high level competitive scene and casuals instead of a noob crutch. Any input is welcome. Here's the model:

  1. Shield will work 'almost' like timed parry. If parry is clicked and no weapon connects, shield will be held for at least 375ms(parry window) and then as soon as it is dropped it will suffer from standard parry cool down. Doesn't matter if shield is dropped right after 375ms or 5 seconds(when it is held).

  2. If shield is held more than Parry window, stamina will start to drain and keep draining until shield is held down. Stamina drain will be noticable so that shield players are encouraged to learn timed block.

These two changes the key. It means if a shield user falls for feint he has 3 choices:

  • Drop shield after parry window and take a hit during cool down as a normal player would. If it's too hard to punish after parry dropped perhaps increase the parry cooldown so it is possible to punish.

  • Hold shield for some time, lose some stamina and take hit anyways during cooldown.

  • Hold shield until stamina reaches 0.
    Smart choice in duel would be to drop guard quickly and take hit. That means shield users will have to read feints, soft read with chamber attempts. If they chamber that means morphs/drags will force them to feint to parry. If a shield user chamber into ftp and the enemy morph feint, they fell for morph feint so they will either drop parry after window or keep holding and get stamina drained to the ground.

Other tweaks:

  1. If side hits and leg hits are buffed against normal parry, shield will be more useful.
    For example,
    Targe will have the same parry box as normal parry. The advantage of targe is just held block.
    Heater will have bigger parry box. So it holds and provide better defense against side hits.
    Kite will have even bigger parry box. It will be the best defensive tool in game.

This is a different approach to balance shield. It will force shield players to learn fundamental mechanics like timed parry, feint read, chambering instead of making them walk like a crab.

  1. After shield block a strike and is held afterwards there will be another parry window(375 ms). between that window shield will not suffer from stamina penalty for holding or parry cooldown if dropped. After this window, however, it will. Unless an enemy hit the shield again(during or after the window). Then the window will reset and start again. This will make holding shield possible for 1 v x without stamina penalty for holding while keeping holding out of duels.

But if shield is working so similar to 1h/2h weapons why use it? What is the advantage? What's the role shield is playing?

Defensive tool for team fights and duels. Period.

  1. The point of shield providing better protection against side and leg hits than normal parry is to make shield a defensive tool in team fights. With heater and kite shield, players will be able to parry better while being surrounded by multiple enemies.

  2. In certain situations where a shield user is in a bad position surrounded by many enemies he can hold block to survive people spamming drags, morphs, feints etc for some time to get his footing back and counter/wait for his team helping. holding block is a situational layer of defense in a team fight instead of a thing you consistently do. Shield users will fight with a combination of click parry and held parry.

  3. Shield will still neutralize drags, morphs with some stamina cost if the user does not attempt to chamber. But most will since they have to read feints, chamber feints, chamber morph feints etc.

  4. I suggest lowering shield cost:
    Targe - 1, heater - 2, kite - 3
    The point is to make shield better than using 1 hander. So it is possible to go 3/3/3 heavy armor with bastard sword and kite shield.

  5. I also suggest removing some of the movement penalty of shield users which only makes them more of a turtle while not addressing the problem of low skilled mechanic.

Casuals will still survive a bit longer than using just weapon with the suggested shield design but it's not entirely a bad thing. They will be punished with stamina drain and hitting them in cooldown. In high level, shield users will learn to time their parry to compete just like any other player would.

Knight 31 53

"This is a different approach to balance shield. It will force shield players to learn fundamental mechanics like timed parry, feint read, chambering instead of making them walk like a crab"

Stop pretending shield users don't know how to do these techniques. I Use a shield every now and then, and I'm just as competent without it. Also making shields a Timed block completely makes them useless for what they're actually used for. Archers would have a field day with shield users because they'd eventually have to stop blocking or lose a lot of stamina. And I just think that's wrong.

Knight 31 53

"If shield is held more than Parry window, stamina will start to drain and keep draining until shield is held down. Stamina drain will be noticeable so that shield players are encouraged to learn timed block."

Doing this would make shields absolutely useless. right now in patch #20, you can easily get stammed out, and now with this proposal, it will be multiplied tenfold.

224 475
  • 2 Dec
 Xatrian

@ArmedSpartan said:
"This is a different approach to balance shield. It will force shield players to learn fundamental mechanics like timed parry, feint read, chambering instead of making them walk like a crab"

Stop pretending shield users don't know how to do these techniques. I Use a shield every now and then, and I'm just as competent without it. Also making shields a Timed block completely makes them useless for what they're actually used for. Archers would have a field day with shield users because they'd eventually have to stop blocking or lose a lot of stamina. And I just think that's wrong.

You assume that getting rid of held blocks capable of riposting in melee would mean getting rid of held block for projectile attacks.

Knight 31 53

You assume that getting rid of held blocks capable of riposting in melee would mean getting rid of held block for projectile attacks.

I'm not assuming anything. The post doesn't make a distinction. Also, I don't see how this can be implemented in-game if it was intended to getting rid of Held block, but keeping it for projectiles.

224 475
  • 2 Dec
 Xatrian

@ArmedSpartan said:

You assume that getting rid of held blocks capable of riposting in melee would mean getting rid of held block for projectile attacks.

I'm not assuming anything. The post doesn't make a distinction. Also, I don't see how this can be implemented in-game if it was intended to getting rid of Held block, but keeping it for projectiles.

Can you not imagine having a different button for a held block designed to work against projectiles?

Knight 31 53

Can you not imagine having a different button for a held block designed to work against projectiles?

That's dumb and inconvenient, and unnecessary. Block should be block. It also makes combat more intricate then needed. This is why I said it will make Shields unuseable, and an inconvenient WORSE parry. Why would someone use this hypothetical shield with these retarded nerfs?

Knight 31 53

Also, Don't underestimate the number of people who only have 2 button mouses. Or is they're using a Gamepad.

224 475
  • 2 Dec
 Xatrian

@ArmedSpartan said:

Can you not imagine having a different button for a held block designed to work against projectiles?

That's dumb and inconvenient, and unnecessary. Block should be block. It also makes combat more intricate then needed. This is why I said it will make Shields unuseable, and an inconvenient WORSE parry. Why would someone use this hypothetical shield with these retarded nerfs?

Because there's something else added in as a trade off?

Knight 31 53

Just think about what you proposed.

"Can you not imagine having a different button for a held block designed to work against projectiles?"

How would you differentiate visually the difference between a Held riposteable block, and a Block only for projectiles? It will look exactly the same. What if someone tries to strike you when you're holding up a Projectile block? Would the sword go right through? Because if that were the case, it would not make sense and would look disgusting.

224 475
  • 2 Dec
 Xatrian

@ArmedSpartan said:
Just think about what you proposed.

"Can you not imagine having a different button for a held block designed to work against projectiles?"

How would you differentiate visually the difference between a Held riposteable block, and a Block only for projectiles? It will look exactly the same. What if someone tries to strike you when you're holding up a Projectile block? Would the sword go right through? Because if that were the case, it would not make sense and would look disgusting.

There's this magical thing that we possess called an imagination. I'd recommend using it. You continuously jump to extreme conclusions instead of filling in the blanks with stuff that makes sense. No, the animation won't be the same. No, the sword won't just phase through you, and why you would even think that's possibly what I meant eludes me.

Conscript 112 270
  • 2 Dec
 Shovonem

@ArmedSpartan said:

Just to clear out things:

  1. I never said holding will require different button. It's simple. If block is held more than the normal parry window(375 ms) it goes to the holding state and lose stamina. It's not a separate mechanic.
  2. The point is not to make holding block useless. It will make it more situational except something you consistently do.
  3. I am not aware of the stamina drain value in current patch. But if it's not as it should be devs could buff it.
  4. This simply make shield require similar skill set to play as it does for 1h/2h hander weapon. If anything, I proposed buffing shield and making it better than 1 hander so it's worth investing points.
  5. It never makes it worse than weapon parry. Shield parry = weapon parry + extra layer of defense (holding).
Knight 31 53
  1. I never said holding will require different button. It's simple. If block is held more than the normal parry window(375 ms) it goes to the holding state and lose stamina. It's not a separate mechanic.

I know you didn't say that The other guy implied/suggested that.

Knight 214 175

@ArmedSpartan said:
"This is a different approach to balance shield. It will force shield players to learn fundamental mechanics like timed parry, feint read, chambering instead of making them walk like a crab"

Stop pretending shield users don't know how to do these techniques. I Use a shield every now and then, and I'm just as competent without it. Also making shields a Timed block completely makes them useless for what they're actually used for. Archers would have a field day with shield users because they'd eventually have to stop blocking or lose a lot of stamina. And I just think that's wrong.

Totaly true, I played shield everytime, and I was still the best Mordhau player with 2hander

Knight 389 1246
  • 3 Dec
 Mittsies

Held-block shouldn't drain stamina, because then it would lose the one thing it's meant to be really good at: blocking projectiles. There are other options, however, such as losing a lot more stamina when blocking a melee attack if your shield has been raised for longer than the parry window.

Duke 2176 3654
  • 3 Dec
 Huggles

@ArmedSpartan said:

Can you not imagine having a different button for a held block designed to work against projectiles?

That's dumb and inconvenient, and unnecessary. Block should be block. It also makes combat more intricate then needed. This is why I said it will make Shields unuseable, and an inconvenient WORSE parry. Why would someone use this hypothetical shield with these retarded nerfs?

We could have diff shield categories tbh. Maybe kite shield and bik viking shield will be defensive behemoths but have shit offense to the point where they are worse in duels. Whereas smaller shields like heater, targe, and buckler become timed parry shields but are straight buffs overall to not having shields.

350 573

Or we could just make the block/parry size accurate to the shield models again...

Instead of totally arbitrary stamina nerfs.

Mercenary 35 145

@Shovonem

Mate change your profile pic and make the same post again, more people will agree with you. No one gonna take you seriously with that witcher profile, it screams inexperience and irrelevance.

Conscript 112 270
  • 5 Dec
 Shovonem

@colessmartshopper said:
@Shovonem

Mate change your region and make the same comment again, more people will agree with you. No one gonna take you seriously with that AU profile, it screams inexperience and irrelevance.

Duke 5164 11173
  • 5 Dec
 Jax — Community Manager

let's not attack each other, focus on the point you're trying to discuss here