Mordhau

Archery Suggestions

177 604
  • 4
  • 26 Nov
 Cswic

Lots of these ideas have been mentioned in some form or another, but here is a combination of them that I think would help the archery situation.

The current problems from what I can tell reading through discord and forums:

1) Longbow deals too much damage.
2) Archery too spammy.
3) Even when devoting 100% attention to an archer parrying can be iffy due to the draw / aiming anims. (may be resolved in the long run)
4) Pretty brainless overall

1) Damage tweaks mainly for longbow\

Huntsman damage bonus for longbow would need to be increased to about 350% to maintain the same damage and HTK it has on live.

Live:
longbow_1.PNG

Proposed:
longbow_2.PNG

Adjustment highlights:
Increases HTK for plate head by 1, plate chest by 1, medium chest by 1, and light helm by 1. Medium helm still remains 2 but goes from 60 to 50 damage. The biggest tweak would probably be light armor going from 1 HTK to 90 damage leaving only crossbow to 1 HTK light helm. Light armor chest and naked chest remain 2 shot but have been lowered by 15 damage. Leg damage untouched (I think leg damage is in a good place for the time being).

Shortbow damage to plate head should also be reduced to 30 to is is 4htk vs longbow 3htk. The rest can probably be left as is. Crossbow leave alone for the time being since it has the two draw backs of having a slow reload rate as well as having to stand still to reload.

2) Make stamina matter for archery in a way that helps prevent spam, but also rewards landing shots consistently.

  • Shooting a longbow and a shortbow now costs stamina. 33 for longbow and 25 for shortbow.
  • Hitting an enemy with a bow grants stamina, same as melee. 17 for longbow and 13 for shortbow.
  • Killing an enemy with a bow also grants the same amount of stamina as hitting one. E.g. if you kill an enemy with a longbow you will get 34 stam in total, 17 for the hit and 17 for the kill.
  • If you do not have 33/25 stamina you can not draw your bow and have to wait for stamina to regen to at least 33/25 until drawing again.

  • Crossbow spam is largely balanced out by its reload time so crossbow may not need these same mechanics. I am mainly trying to just address longbow and shortbow.

The idea is that an archer who can quickly and consistently land shots should be rewarded for doing so while archers who can not will have a lower up time. In order to have similar spam to live an archer would need to land all his shots or get kills consistently. I tried to pick fairly high stam values to keep the number of missed shots you can have low, but the stam values could always be adjusted. This will also make it so that an archer who isn't careful of his stam will be at a big disadvantage in melee.

3) I am sure nearly everyone has had moments where they are charging an archer 10ft away, he starts to draw a bow, and then you get shot while it looks like he is still pointing his bow at the ground or bringing it up to his shoulder.

I suggest having something like the sniper scope glint like in Battlefield.

  • Make the arrow glint when the bow can fire or a half beat before reaching the minimum draw needed to fire. For crossbow I would make the glint happen when they ads.

I think this would help a bit with some of the more annoying quickscope shotgunning that goes on where it looks like the archer hardly brought his bow up but still shot you.

4) Bring back the original more severe sway on the longbow. Possibly consider bringing back the slightly faster draw time. Consider adding sway for bows while moving. The ranger perk could also reduce sway while moving.

  • Combination of having more severe sway on the longbow and the incorporation of stamina into archery means that an archer has to do the following to put out similar damage to live longbow:

1) Compensate for sway and fire during the more intense sway for nearly every shot.
2) Land nearly every shot or get kills.
3) Still run out of stamina eventually and have to regen unless you exclusively target archers and have huntsman (since the archers would be 1 hit kills and hitting an enemy only gives back 1/2 of shot cost).

Longbow sway was never too difficult to compensate for even with the older more severe sway. Most of the people in the alpha can adjust to the sway relatively quickly. But larger sway is still better than low sway regardless since larger sway makes it just that tiny bit harder for someone unfamiliar with Mordhau archery to just pick a bow and start destroying people.

I think having the stamina punishment / reward incorporated with the sway change would result in a greater gap between newer and more experienced archers while also decreasing spam for both. Although the stamina changes would hurt the people who can't land shots reliably more than those who can, which is part of the effort to make archery less "brainless".

TL;DR:

1) Lower damage for longbow, lower plate headshot damage for shortbow.
2) Shooting bows cost stamina. Hitting an enemy gives stamina and killing an enemy gives stamina.
3) Arrowhead glints (like Battlefield sniper scope glint) at minimum release point to give hint to people when an archer can fire.
4) Increased longbow sway + stamina changes = hopefully greater skill gap between newbie archers and more experienced archers.

Knight 606 1511
  • 26 Nov
 Pred

Some good ideas. Stamina loss on shot would be a welcome one that should help balance archer melee as well - there is no quick way to kill archers now because clock is always ticking as archers are usually close to their spawn and trying to go for the stamina drain is not viable at all as it takes ages with the current balance. They can yolo spam wounded people who get to them with Shorts Sword or Axe, stall for a few second until teammates come from spawn or just run away whenever they don't feel like fighting. If you get to an archer and he has 20 stamina, now that's an actual disadvantage.

Knight 558 1402

The reason I've liked playing archer in chivalry wasn't to stand still and shoot at distant targets. I much preferred combining melee and ranged strategically and essentially play everything the game has to offer at once. For that purpose I mostly used the heavy crossbow which allowed me to either severely wound or eliminate one opponent before engaging in melee. I liked this approach to archery because the player has to be good at melee and shooting to get results instead of sniping from the top of a tower.

Now while the crossbow in mordhau deal much less damage, the customisation options let me have much more armor and weaponry than I had in chivalry. Imo it is in a decent state right now, I'm having fun landing a crossbow bolt on an enemy before finishing him off with my falchion.

However, I feel like the shortbow and longbow aren't that great. Right now they feel like assist machines to me. If the longbow is the "sniper" weapon (which it seem to be since the cost will severely impair the archer's melee capabilities), it should have a much greater projectile speed to hit targets from further away and slightly more chest damage on heavier armor tiers. Otherwise anyone you actually manage to hit can just take cover and heal, even denying you a potential assist. Not to mention that arrow parrying severely impair long range capabilities of bows.
As for the shortbow, it requires so much arrows to actually deal a decent amount of damage that it's not worth it. As for its close range melee support role, a fair amount of arrows shot in a melee engagement end up deflected, parried or hitting during a riposte and dealing very little damage. Let's be honest, if a teammate is engaged in a 1v1 in melee, it's never worth it to play support and shoot at his opponent as opposed to going melee as well.

In short, the longbow and the shortbow cannot fulfill their roles in my opinion.

Edit : obviously to fit the long range role, the longbow should also have a much slower fire rate, or at least have a longer time to reach the sweet spot so you can't be accurate at long range and spam.

Mercenary 178 406
  • 26 Nov
 Izıl

Implement drawtime for bows, if quickshot the arrow just drop to the ground, but "arrowdrop" depends how long u draw just like bulletdrop in shooters

King 2104 2350

Sammy isn't here but I'll post for him : "remove"

Knight 110 107
  • 27 Nov
 Peregr1ne

Some of these ideas are alright, although there are quite a few that aren't or can be done differently. As a hybrid player, I have experience with both the melee and ranged side of things. So here's what my take is on appropriate balancing:

Longbow - Needs the most drastic nerf. The main thing is that its projectile speed is too fast even for the long range weapon that it is. Other than that I think the damage got balanced out okay since you no longer get one shot in the legs. Reducing the projectile speed a bit will make it similar to vanilla Chivalry's warbow which I think is fair enough. The sway doesn't really need a change since it is enough to increase the potential difficulty with the changes mentioned previously.
At the moment there's a reason why longbowmen are the most successful archers while i'm getting 30+ deaths whenever they're present.

Recurve - Whilst i'm usually not one to complain about fire rate unlike a certain archer I know, I will admit it's a bit too much with this weapon. Furthermore, the projectile speed could be nerfed just a tiny bit more. Damage should actually be buffed because at the moment you have to land 2 hits to the body or 1 to the head for it to do any remotely useful damage against heavily armoured targets.

Crossbow - At the moment there are scenarios where, like the longbow, this weapon is overpowered. However, there are also times where it can be useless. It all depends on the terrain. Perhaps it could keep its projectile speed while reducing bodyshot damage and increasing headshot damage. I'm not sure if the pavise breaks from projectiles when placed down but if so this could definitely be changed, so that crossbowmen could be useful even in the open.

Stamina cost for drawing bows - Not really necessary for balancing archers and in fact could be quite detrimental to their overall usefulness. Being able to dish out useful DPS at range on randomly moving targets while avoiding hitting teammates can be difficult enough without forcing them to wait around for a yellow bar to refill.

Arrow glint - Very good idea short term for determining when archers are ready to shoot. Although the whole thing with archers hitting you while looking like they still bringing the bow up is mostly a problem with animations. This should hopefully be fixed in future patches though.

One other suggestion could be to slightly increase mobility generally for melee players. At the moment I seem to be having a hard time evading arrows to close the distance with melee compared to how I used to in Chivalry. This might be due to the projectile speeds of all the ranged weapons more than melee mobility though.

350 573

Actually a huge fan of stamina on drawing the bow. Tired of getting spammed by little archers. Ambush one and suddenly hes raping me with a cleaver while his friend kicks me and blocks all my target switches. Even when I get that nice longsword hit on them, they got plenty of time to just pull out whatever they want and overwhelm me.

Let archers draw the bow even at 0 stamina, they shouldnt have to be stuck waiting for their bar to recharge to do their main job... and maybe give them stamina on successful shots? But I wan them to have to be careful when close to melee and be at a disadvantage for arrow spam and getting caught unprepared for melee.

177 604
  • 27 Nov
 Cswic

Forums need a downvote button.

King 2104 2350

@Cswic said:
Forums need a downvote button.

scrolls across post list of people i dont like and downvotes everything on 20 different accounts

177 604
  • 27 Nov
 Cswic

@King Sinclair The FluffyDragon said:

@Cswic said:
Forums need a downvote button.

scrolls across post list of people i dont like and downvotes everything on 20 different accounts

Exactly.

Knight 31 53

I think the stamina drain would be nifty for the Longbow, and the recurve. However, If that were to be implemented, I'd like to see a Damage increase at least to offset the disadvantage. And the reason I say that, is because I think the Longbow in the current/previous patches is way too underpowered and severely inferior to the Crossbow.

80 27
  • 1
  • 28 Nov
 Xanatelos

Shortbow should deal more damage, perhaps the equivalent of the current Longbow. I'd like sway to be consistent too. It seems semi-random and if this game has any potential to become esports ready, there needs to be sway patterns (like recoil patterns in CSGO).

350 573

I think short bow should stay where it is. Longbow may need more damage to justify its point cost but eh that's iffy. Both should cost stamina.

Crossbow is in a sweet spot, very balanced imo.

Duke 961 1346
  • 30 Nov
 PadanFain

Sometimes I wonder what game you guys are playing you want to buff dmg on bows... times like this I'm thankful for private feedback on discord

350 573

I really don't know why archers bother being archers, I don't find it rewarding considering how insignificant their damage output is. They can only steal kills or have their attempted kills stolen. Maybe they rape the shit out of you @Padan but I rarely see archers significantly contribute much less carry the team.

Archers shoot me often mid combat (prolly because I charge and target them alot) but I wear T3 and it makes them little more than a nuisance. Arrows don't really do significant damage to me unless they're multiple archers targeting specifically me and they're good enough to land hits where it hurts. Archers kill me by bow only if I'm already wounded and fighting someone.

Archers actually threaten me the most when they switch to war hammer/dagger etc.

I do not think it's unreasonable at all to buff specifically Longbow given its point cost.

80 27
  • 1
  • 30 Nov
 Xanatelos

@PadanFain said:
Sometimes I wonder what game you guys are playing you want to buff dmg on bows... times like this I'm thankful for private feedback on discord

How pretentious of you. I bet you don't even play archer in Mordhau yet act all elitist-like.
I came from a background from Chivalry - and played mostly shield or archer.

Archery needs a buff in terms of shortbow and longbow. Ive already put in enough hours to realize this.

80 27
  • 1
  • 30 Nov
 Xanatelos

I really like the bow and arrows but they feel like nerf versions right now.. a long bow shouldnt realistically do much damage to plate but right now its useless in comp

80 27
  • 3
  • 30 Nov
 Xanatelos

short bows need a range buff as well as a penetration buff

Capture.PNG

Knight 2912 5488
  • 5
  • 30 Nov
 Bodkin

If you buff recurve damage to be equal to longbow then why the hell would anyone ever pick longbow lmao

Like dude are you 12

EDIT: Misread, did not see you wanted both bows buffed

Archer damage is honestly fine right now save for a few small quirks

Longbow

Needs to do 50dmg to light torso instead of the current 75

Needs to do 50dmg to medium helm instead of the current 60

Needs to do 40dmg to heavy helm instead of the current 50. Makes heavy helmet more effective.

Slow fire rate on longbow to be slightly quicker than chiv warbow.

General Changes

Add in arrowhead glint like scopes from battlefield. Suggested this a long time ago on discord, glad Cswic thought of it as well. This lets you know an archer is present and has you in his sights

Make bows and crossbows louder on shot so people can use audio and visual queue to parry if they are paying attention to archers

Then make longbow 11pts again

Make recurve 7

Leave crossbow alone

Nerfing archer damage output any more than this will just result in me using spear support loadout and doing 2x as well at half the difficulty of doing the same as archer tbh. Spear support is already better than an archer in some maps. More armor, can parry to defend mates, flinch to defend mates, more damage, can feint, etc. Very strong loadout that does a similar job to archer in a different way. Nerfing archer damage to shit tier will just make this much more viable than archer honestly.