Mordhau

Build #20 Discussion Thread

Conscript 4546 6277
  • 3
  • 17 Jan
 vanguard

Deceptive animations are a different story.

Yeah, thats the problem. How do you tell a delay from a accel when its done mid release? You say drags are hard countered by chamber FTP, so does this means that I should be winding up a attack every time my opponent attacks me? Or do you know when its a delay is going to happen? Because what I'm saying is that I don't know how to see if my opponent is delaying his attack or not. It doesn't matter if there exists a hard counter to this, if I can't identify it. Countering isn't the problem, identifying is. I know a great counter to delayed drags too, you just identify them and don't parry early.

You won't notice that in 2v1 or team fights as usually these drags are not common for a variety of reasons. Keep dueling and you will see them more often.

Its the same deal with the 240 system, its not impossible to be good with it, but its fucking difficult beyond imagination and goddamn annoying. Drags are more or less on this same area imo, I can't react to them, there is no visual or audio clue so I ask you again Giru, what should I look for? Do you read these mid-release drags?

Knight 292 904
  • 1
  • 17 Jan
 GIRUGIRU

i usually vouch for chamber FTPs when im against a good player and on that turn of initiative he's right in my face. As similair with chiv, keep distancing when it's your turn to parry and move in different patterns to make yourself difficult to be manipulated against

Will need to press Q if they morph though because if you just chamber ftp a morph you might get morph feinted

Either way, you only need to parry 100 or so MS later than the accels beginning to parry most drags in this game, if you're at a distance and under pressure where you're gonna struggle to read you can just use chambers to bolster your defence. It's alot easier to stay alive in Mordhau compared to chiv - in 1vX situations you can literlaly just spam riposte and tank 9000 hits as well

Otherwise, you just need to get used to maintaining distance and hard-reading when you're not in facehug. Facehug yeah, shit's gonna get hard to read, but if you could read everything in this game you would just be playing mount and blade with stamina

Wizardish has a good "speech" on this, he talks about "avoidance" as an important part of your defensive toolkit

Managing when you're facehug and when you're not is a big way to make your attacks difficult to read yet you can read theirs no problem

Knight 1269 3804
  • 17 Jan
 Frise

@GIRUGIRU said:
Making parry difficult increases the difficulty for noobs

Directional parry is more intuitive for new players to understand than timed parry. This isn't about difficulty; If a less lenient directional parry was in the game and resulted in noobs having a hard time, you can adjust by making the timing aspect of the game less powerful. And then the game would reward varying your offense instead of braindead, monotonous feinting.

This is about game design and how interesting the game is, not about hue ur bad u want ez. Combat at a high level lacks depth and the swing manipulation is a wasted opportunity.

Conscript 4546 6277
  • 2
  • 17 Jan
 vanguard

@GIRUGIRU said:
i usually vouch for chamber FTPs when im against a good player and on that turn of initiative he's right in my face. As similair with chiv, keep distancing when it's your turn to parry and move in different patterns to make yourself difficult to be manipulated against

Yeah that I know and its something in my muscle memory, I'm constantly moving and shit. But, it doesn't seems to me that this more conventional footwork is really effective in making you avoid being facehugged, and I only duel with big weapons like halberd or zwei, with either medium or light armor. In chiv seems like backpedalling was faster? Idk whats the deal man but fucking full armored bastard sword dude keeps facehugging me all the time, and unless I turn my back to my opponent and run, I can't create distance effectively especially considering the lunge + morphs.

i mean, I can avoid being dragged in most of the situations I think, but thats different from reading. Like, my opponent windups a left-to-right slash, I'll footwork to the right in order to create distance and make things easier to read. This does make so I can avoid getting hit and what not, but its not always that you can do this. Sometimes you have to read shit, and here lies the problem imo.

Just for the record, when I backpedal I don't just press S, its usually A or D and S + mouse movement, as that creates more distance faster.

Will need to press Q if they morph though because if you just chamber ftp a morph you might get morph feinted

True that.

Either way, you only need to parry 100 or so MS later than the accels beginning to parry most drags in this game, if you're at a distance and under pressure where you're gonna struggle to read you can just use chambers to bolster your defence. It's alot easier to stay alive in Mordhau compared to chiv - in 1vX situations you can literlaly just spam riposte and tank 9000 hits as well

I mean, this will depend on your setup, I can't just try to chamber all the time at facehug reach with a halberd. Maybe what you say is true for medium weapons, which is what basically everyone uses. I'm completely disconsidering 1vX here for the reasons I already stated, these readability things are less of a problem in team fights as there you have less space for doing elaborated drags and shit.

Otherwise, you just need to get used to maintaining distance and hard-reading when you're not in facehug. Facehug yeah, shit's gonna get hard to read, but if you could read everything in this game you would just be playing mount and blade with stamina

Right, but one thing is not being able to read because I need to l2p, other thing is not being able to read because the animations are not readable. One of these things are healthy for the game, the other is absolute cancerous. I still can't tell the difference between a delay and a accel, so I ask once again, what clues do you look for to identify them? On the animation itself I mean.

Wizardish has a good "speech" on this, he talks about "avoidance" as an important part of your defensive toolkit

Managing when you're facehug and when you're not is a big way to make your attacks difficult to read yet you can read theirs no problem

Yeah indeed the reach thing is directly related to readability of drags. Don't you think its too easy to facehug in this game? Its a goddamn pain in the ass to use big and slow weapons because of this tbh. Also, if there is knockback, it is barely noticeable and might be one of the things that contribute to all this imo. Big slow weapons needs knockback.

Knight 292 904
  • 18 Jan
 GIRUGIRU

Yeah lunge is too high right now that's one of the causes, it's being looked at. But I agree it's quite easy to force facehug with weapons like BS

As for animation unreadability, I dont find them unreadable as well as many other people that don't post on these forums. Although if I was to bring them to this thread I would get accussed of brigading

Frise, you're in no place to talk about the depth of high level play. The arguement that m&b style parry being good is an awful idea and it's extremely unintiutive. If that's what you prefer banner Lord is around the corner where you can enjoy that

Knight 1269 3804
  • 18 Jan
 Frise

When did I ever say m&b style parry should be a thing? If you're gonna imagine your own version of what other people say then there's no point in discussing anything.

Conscript 4546 6277
  • 18 Jan
 vanguard

@GIRUGIRU said:
Yeah lunge is too high right now that's one of the causes, it's being looked at. But I agree it's quite easy to force facehug with weapons like BS

Yeah I cant wait to see this fixed so I can use heavy weapons without wanting to kill myself after it.

As for animation unreadability, I dont find them unreadable as well as many other people that don't post on these forums. Although if I was to bring them to this thread I would get accussed of brigading

Lol Giru, you were accused of brigading because said people got into X thread and shat all over it like a bunch of fucking cavemans instead of saying usefull stuff. Absolutely no one would care if your friends came here and talked or explained stuff, maybe they can answer what clues should I look for to read delayed attacks? That would be welcome tbh. As I said, I can read when people do drags like looking to the sides/up first than attacking, but when they are done mid release its a real fuck I cant see anything lmao

Mercenary 2184 3898
Conscript 647 1454
  • 18 Jan
 ohshitsorry

My comment was deleted for drawing penis, you'd better watch out.

1058 1696

Directional parry is intuitive and makes sense. Picking up Chivalry for the first time it's what I went to since that's the obvious way to get around someone's defense. Why would delays and accels ever be the obvious choice? Who played Chivalry for the first time and said "slow motion swords are clearly going to be the meta." Why is parry timed anyways?

This game's just not fun or intuitive. 64p chaos will be fun but currently competitive play will never be anything more than the monotonous accel/decel mind games we currently have in duelyards. Every "choice" really comes down to accelerating/dragging an attack or rock/paper/scissors within those choices.

Making parry directional doesn't make it harder or easier but it will make sense and make your mouse feel like the weapon. Fighting would certainly look better and fights will feel like fights. The 1vX argument against it is very weak considering followup/double parries can be less strict or have less strict turncap just like double parry already costs less stamina. Parry turn cap can also be adjusted in general and lunge should be drastically toned down anyways, which would remove the most offensive side hits.

Those of us wanting directional parry may be a minority among people on the forums... among people who loved exploiting Chivalry's clunky parry with reverses, spazzy body feints, spazzy accels, spin drags and intentional misses in Xv1. But it's safe to say we speak for all people who hated Chivalry's poorly implemented parry or are new to the genre and are expecting fights that actually look and feel like sword fights.

Conscript 4546 6277
  • 1
  • 23 Jan
 vanguard

So ehm... I'm still waiting for a answer, maybe a dev knows? What clues does the animation gives you that its a delayed or a accelerated attack?

I'm starting to think that there really isn't no clue at all, and all you do is predict your opponent while thinking you are so skilled at reading the animations. So idk, unless someone answers this question, it really isn't a l2p issue but a design issue, one that isn't even new. Remember this thread here:

https://mordhau.com/forum/topic/12596/the-readability-of-drags/#c1

It is the exact same problem, wasn't fixed at all. The only difference is that now instead of getting fucked when trying to chamber, you get fucked all the goddamn time whenever you have to read attacks. The horizontal attack is especially hideous to tell the difference.

I don't base my playstile on predictability of my opponent, instead I try to react to things. Maybe this is why I'm noticing this more than other people? Maybe all you fuckers are suffering from a l2p issue and therefore can't see this problem? Idk really lmao, answer me pls. If it is a learn to play issue, I'm all open to learn how to deal with it and how to read drags on this game.

I'm trying to figure out how to record the game as I never did such thing before, and as soon as I do I'll post here because it isn't possible that you guys aren't seeing this shit. Its beyond me how anyone thinks that drags are readable in this game. I know its pretty cool to feel good about how high level you are or whatever retarded ego shit that goes on in this community, but can we be objective here for a change, please.

Mercenary 2184 3898

.commie got point tbh

Learn2Discuss

239 287
  • 1
  • 24 Jan
 idiotgod

@GIRUGIRU said:
Making parry difficult increases the difficulty for noobs

If I knew they were making this game for noobs I 100% wouldn't have backed it.

Thought this was competitive players crafting the Medieval combat game they wanted to play.

Seems more like medium level modders looking to cash in on an untapped market.

Just waiting for Chivalry 2

1058 1696

Parry is already difficult for noobs. When they fight a pro they will see how unintuitive and clunky the game is while stuck watching someone's slow motion sword sail into them during parry recovery... which is really just an arbitrary and artificial way for the game to reward feinting, morphing, dragging, spazzing or intentional misses... which feels horrible.

Also, making parry tighter along with other gameplay changes will make sword fighting and blocking look and feel real and intuitive. Long story short, your mouse cursor should be your weapon as well as your defense. Right now, simply pressing buttons are your defense and offense and your mouse is an after thought. In Chivalry at least, your mouse was your weapon and mattered much more for defense.

All the skill in this game is NOT in the use of formulaic or rehearsed overhead foot drag-accel mind games like we see on Giru's videos or in pressing the morph/feint button or in lightning fast target switches or inrehearsed look down animation masking... the skill is in reading through bullshit looking stuff which look like exploits. Do we really want to force noobs to "git gud" SOLELY by learning to read through bullshit, ugly and un-intuitive, pre-rehearsed moves...?

Or would we rather tell them to aim their parry at the tip of their opponents sword which makes perfectly logical sense and is prolly as close to realistic as the game can be? Wouldn't telling them to aim their weapon where they're opponent isn't ready to block be the most intuitive way to land hits...? As opposed to insta hit vs drag/feint/morph bullshit?

Bear in mind our entire system of offense/defense is currently based on the poor game designs of Chivalry, a game never meant to be anything more than a funny and gory medieval rag doll simulator. This isn't a l2p issue but a flaw in the parry system the devs decided to copy/paste over from Chivalry without any kind of overhaul.

Duke 5473 13074
  • 25 Jan
 Jax — Community Manager

read the hips/shoulder orientation. if the body is pointing away from you, it's a delay. pointing into the attack, accel. keep in mind that this only applies as long as the person doesn't move after windup, which is unlikely.

Mercenary 2184 3898

Then thats a useless advice ?

Duke 2266 4006
 Huggles

@GIRUGIRU said:
Making parry difficult increases the difficulty for noobs, yet you guys are complaining that you can't parry anything

We need to discourage blanket statements like this, and I am definitely guilty of doing this in the past. These statements are troublesome because any change we make in the game has trade offs in how it affects things, and this is no exception. A harder parry will make it harder for a noob to parry well, yes, but it also makes lone veterans far more defeatable with smart team play which is far more beneficial for noobs. We don't want the game mechanics to be in a state where any veteran can basically 1v6 noobs everywhere with ease, and we also don't want people to be too survivable overall.

The thought process of "there are more of us, we should try to surround him and kill him from the sides/back" is a very intuitive one for anyone. It also allows the game to move at a more consistent and aggressive pace and punishes bad positioning.


I agree with what you said regarding where swing manipulation is. The edge cases of drags require improper footwork on the part of the defender and almost perfect footwork on the part of the attacker. Needless to say if you put yourself in this position the attack should definitely not be readable.


I think the issue is a lot less l2p on the part of vanguard and has more to do with what he thinks reading is. Reading in a vacuum is pretty damn hard if not close to impossible if not literally impossible for people with normal reaction times. I think he is kind of expecting to be able to read in a vacuum due to reaction times, when in reality reading very well done morphs/drags/feints is a lot more about mitigating properly with footwork, chambers, etc. If you could read everything in the game with ease in a vacuum the combat fundamentally falls apart.

What he said about distance management in duels is also not rly l2p. If both players know what they are doing the reach adv in a duel matter very little. It isn't completely useless like what he said, but it is probably not as good as it should be. These are things that can be tweaked with knockback, lunge changes, etc.

Duke 2266 4006
  • 3 Mar
 Huggles

@vanguard said:
So ehm... I'm still waiting for a answer, maybe a dev knows? What clues does the animation gives you that its a delayed or a accelerated attack?

I'm starting to think that there really isn't no clue at all, and all you do is predict your opponent while thinking you are so skilled at reading the animations. So idk, unless someone answers this question, it really isn't a l2p issue but a design issue, one that isn't even new. Remember this thread here:

https://mordhau.com/forum/topic/12596/the-readability-of-drags/#c1

It is the exact same problem, wasn't fixed at all. The only difference is that now instead of getting fucked when trying to chamber, you get fucked all the goddamn time whenever you have to read attacks. The horizontal attack is especially hideous to tell the difference.

I don't base my playstile on predictability of my opponent, instead I try to react to things. Maybe this is why I'm noticing this more than other people? Maybe all you fuckers are suffering from a l2p issue and therefore can't see this problem? Idk really lmao, answer me pls. If it is a learn to play issue, I'm all open to learn how to deal with it and how to read drags on this game.

I'm trying to figure out how to record the game as I never did such thing before, and as soon as I do I'll post here because it isn't possible that you guys aren't seeing this shit. Its beyond me how anyone thinks that drags are readable in this game. I know its pretty cool to feel good about how high level you are or whatever retarded ego shit that goes on in this community, but can we be objective here for a change, please.

Game is both reacting and being proactive, but the game def isn't a reaction test. It might be for some of the more insane players with like fucking 10000+ fps and hz and 100ms reaction times.

From what I've seen the main thing you want to do to read is to keep distance and always move away from the attack so you can parry last moment. So if someone is swinging left, you move right and wait till last moment to parry.

Forcing parries by running towards attack is very easily countered with drags, so running towards attacks is usually a lot more about forcing misses from accels because they over reach you on an accel, and this carries a risk due to insiders.

Then there is mitigating, which is usually chamber ftp, or chamber with some added footworking manuever. The line on whether chamber + footwork is a gamble or not is fairly blurred, as you can consistently hit him if he goes for a morph drag but if he morph accels he will consistently hit you first.

Knight 161 227
  • 1 May
 Q

I often found it hard to distinguish between team/enemy in Frontline (with so many players). Especially in the darker areas, & when covered in blood. I suggest using brighter more florescent colours, or to abandon the colour red.

Knight 161 227
  • 1 May
 Q

Keyboard bind to toggle objective markers on/off. As they can be quite distracting at times.