Mordhau

Build #20 Discussion Thread

Knight 3135 7295
  • 24 Dec '18
 Punzybobo

man if vantguard give up on 240 system, there really is no saving it tbh

301 875
  • 24 Dec '18
 Naleaus

@vanguard

I wrote up some big reply and forgot to post it. But the gist was that I do not really have those issues, whether it's cause of a different setup (angle before or after, mouse, playstyle, etc) or something else. Obviously I have incorrect inputs occasionally, but it's rare enough that I don't get pissed off. And I do wacky footwork and matrix shit nonstop (less wacky in team games though).

This isn't to refute what you've said, but just to give a different viewpoint that not everyone has the same issue with it. I know Stauxie uses full 240 and does well, so that may be another person to look at in regards to differences in experiences with it.

Conscript 4561 6299
  • 24 Dec '18
 vanguard

I would say that in my experience, every idk 8 fights I have, in one of them my input will fuck up. Sometimes it doesn't impact me negatively, like I have the initiative and want a overhead, but the game gives me something else.

I'm giving up on it mainly because of this constant threat of wrong input. I never know when it will fail, it's a lotery.

I do imagine you can get good at it to the point where mistakes are minimal, but the threat is still there, it doesn't go away.

Binds has none of this, you are absolutely secure with them. This is why I'm switching, it will minimize the chance of mistakes happening.

Knight 1269 3805
  • 24 Dec '18
 Frise

@vanguard said:
This is why I'm switching, it will minimize the chance of mistakes happening.

But then you won't be born again

Duke 5496 13122
  • 27 Dec '18
 Jax — Community Manager

AngleAfterAttackPress works fine for me. Also i think next patch will have a way to invert 240 attack direction.

Conscript 4561 6299
  • 1
  • 29 Dec '18
 vanguard

Still has inconsistency in my experience because of the footwork thing I said. I think that when you boot the game, it should give you 2 options for input: the 240 system, or a set of binds. Put a disclaimer under the 240 system saying that it is fun, but can be inconsistent for "serious" play.

Rising Storm 2 does this, it asks you if u want to use RO2 control scheme, or the new one they came up with

@Frise said:

@vanguard said:
This is why I'm switching, it will minimize the chance of mistakes happening.

But then you won't be born again

SHUT FUCK THE UP this is very serious topic no jokes are allowed here.

Knight 1269 3805
  • 29 Dec '18
 Frise

@vanguard said:
no jokes are allowed here.

Why are you here then?

Mercenary 1137 2082
  • 29 Dec '18
 TheKingInTheNorth

@Frise said:

@vanguard said:
no jokes are allowed here.

Why are you here then?

ouch

Conscript 4561 6299
  • 29 Dec '18
 vanguard

Oh my god Frise stop right now or I'll ask Jax to ban you!!

  • 1 Jan
 Moses
This comment was deleted.
Mercenary 2188 3902

Vanguard just got burnt out of commumizm

Conscript 4561 6299
  • 1
  • 17 Jan
 vanguard

After playing this patch a bit more, animations are still unreadable, its horrible to see the difference between a delay or a accel from any weapon really. Morphs are still unreadable, there should be at least some sort of grunt or any other sound when you do them imho, right now its borderline retarded tbh, fights feel cheesy as hell. Chamber morphs are bad, real bad to deal with. Add chamber morph feints to the mix and you are in for a gamble festival where no one reads fuckall and whoever can keep the initiative wins, simply because this allows you to throw more unreadable stuff at your opponent, which is why big slow weapons are shitty for duels as being slower while having no noticeable reach advantage fucks your initiative big time. This leads us to the part where you don't really have much freedom in fights, you better get a medium tier weapon (LS, BS, Battle Axe etc) and mix up unreadable stuff while doing everything you can to not lose initiative.

Frise said something that I agree, we fight more against the animations than our opponent itself.

Honestly? Fights have been more annoying than fun, and I'm not even burned out on the game as I did give it quite some time already. When I lose or win it feels cheesy, unless me or my opponent pull of some cool footwork manuever, all the rest is basically unreadable animations that doesn't give you any clue on what the hell is going on.

There are no range plays in duels, a halberd and a bastard sword feels exactly the same range wise, morphs + lunge makes so anything can reach anything at any given moment, it makes so footwork is more about flashy stuff like using torso movement to duck under a waterfall atempt for example, than positioning and keeping your opponent at the edge of your weapon. The thing is, flashy stuff is situational and gambly as fuck, while positioning could be used constantly and consistently. I think backpedall speed is too low, playing with halberd and 2-2-0 armor I cannot create/maintain distance between me and my opponent that is using a LS/BS.

I can understand if the game launches with the combat on this state due to time constrains and such, but it will have to be tweaked after release, like big priority stuff imho. Probably on the Frontline mode these things won't be really noticeable, especially for new players going against other new players, but its just a matter of time until people find out the real cheesy tactics and abuse the fuck out of them, making the combat annoying.

About the animations, the advantage of Chivalry's freezing weapon in mid air is that you could actually read this happening and react accourdingly. Here its so fluid, you can't really see the delay untill its already too late. There is 0 indications that a delay is being used if your opponent actually knows what he is doing, same for accels.

Knight 1269 3805
  • 1
  • 17 Jan
 Frise

Even if we disregard the whole discussion about whether or not drags and morphs are readable in this patch, the truth is that barely anybody new to the game will want to put in 1000 hours if the combat remains like this. It's just extremely monotonous. There's nothing new to learn once you've learned how the meta works. In TF2 you can spend hours just practicing airshots, in Rocket League you can spend hours practicing dribbling, aerial stuff, etc... in CSGO, you can spend hours practicing spray patterns and aim. In Mordhau, there's really no incentive to make any effort whatsoever in learning stuff. You just keep playing and get a bit better at reading feints and delays. Any attempt of doing something new ends up with "I could have just feinted and got better results for less effort". No sense in playing such a repetitive melee game when there's other melee games out there with way more variety. At this point what is even the point of the swing manipulation system if the combat doesn't take advantage of it?

Right now, after almost 600 hours, I've reached the point where I'm playing the game and I'm just bored. I just go into braindead mode and feint/delay drag like it's Chivalry. But at least in Chivalry we had the feeling that we created all these things.

Knight 292 904
  • 17 Jan
 GIRUGIRU

Alot of those statements are just flat out wrong, the rest is mostly l2p issues. I suggest you spend more time practicing rather than overthinking and writing forum posts

Knight 1269 3805
  • 17 Jan
 Frise

i no need discuss to improv gaaem u nid get gud

Knight 292 904
  • 17 Jan
 GIRUGIRU

Big difference between viable game balance discussion and just whining, frise

Knight 1269 3805
  • 17 Jan
 Frise

everything I can't refute like an intelligent person is a l2p issue or whining

pls don't make parry harder tho because aiming scares giru giru

Conscript 4561 6299
  • 1
  • 17 Jan
 vanguard

Yeah the unreadable animation thing might be a l2p issue, I don't really know. What clues does the game gives you that its a delay or a accelerated attack? What do you look for? All I can do is try to predict what the fuck Frise or anyone else will do. I can only read his delays when he does it in a real dumb way, like starting a attack while looking to the sides or something, which doesn't happen really often. When you drag mid release there is no clue at all tbh.

The morph having no sound whatsoever to distinguish it from other stuff isn't really a l2p thing though, I think its actually pretty basic stuff to have tbh. Same way in chiv ripostes had no grunt while normal attacks did, and this was fundamental to read feints after being parried. Here you can hold a stab inside your opponent, than morph it last second into a delated overhead and there is no visual/sound clue that A) a morph is happening and B) you are getting delayed. It boils down to predicting my opponent's fighting style, which I find annoying idk.

1125 1770

What's so hard about aiming parries and making gameplay more intuitive/realistic? What's wrong with fights that look like fights?

Right about now is usually when I come on to play the game but lately I haven't seen the point. I lose to cheese and win through cheesing. Nothing real intuitive about delaying/accelerating or pressing the morph/feint button. Offense is so brain dead easy and defense is infuriating for all the wrong reasons. I thought I hated the game cause I got shit on but I was recently raping worse players and it wasn't fun at all. Watching high level duels disgusts me, just accel/drag mind games over and over. That's all I ever see on Giru's videos, I'm glad at least he enjoys mindless fights that look nothing like fights.

The most complaints in Chivalry were about slow motion swords and reverse hits which make no sense.

But here the ONLY meta is about super sonic swords vs slow motion swords. I don't care if someone likes to make their sword do ugly slow motion, floaty shit. But why in God's name are slow motion swords even the meta? WHOSE IDEA WAS THIS? Yet side hits and shoulder drags get deleted instead of the despised accel/delay meta. Remeber dev blog 2 where parries failed for being a few inches too low or too high? Guess the devs were only joking about doing things right.

Drags/reverses in Chivalry were simply exploits discovered by the player base. TB decided to formally endorse such since they were too lazy to fix them. Mordhau's devs, on the other hand, simply thought first frame vs last frame hits were an ingenius meta.

This is a serious game design flaw, not a learn to play issue.

Knight 292 904
  • 17 Jan
 GIRUGIRU

Making parry difficult increases the difficulty for noobs, yet you guys are complaining that you can't parry anything.

you guys are an extremely vocal minority, back when i used to play Chiv we would just l2p rather than cry on the forums - you wouldn't get an answer from the devs then. Nothing in this game is unreactable, nothing hits you too fast before you can react to it. Deceptive animations are a different story

As for this ultra swing manipulation meta you guys are talking about, i'm not sure where you're getting this from either. Drags are hard countered by chamber FTP in this game, anything with massive drags is easy to deal with because of this mechanic. Huge drags also require you to perform them offscreen, that means you can punish them like so;

  • Accel riposte
  • Early Chamber
  • Chamber feints
  • Wait for a panic parry

Anything that's not an offscreen drag is easy to deal with. Morph feints aren't that scary because aslong as you read the initial attack, you can just chamber the morph and it's garunteed initiative

Take this clip for example https://www.twitch.tv/giru/clip/CreativeOpenRaccoonMVGame?filter=clips&range=7d&sort=time i don't see anything here with what you guys are talking about. The game is about initiative and target switching, with good defense and stamina management. Doing dumb spasticating swing manipulation will just get you destroyed by any good player