Mordhau

Instant Hit Discussion

1308 2875
  • 17 Nov '18
 Monsteri

Tight turncap in the early release would be really bad, you remove all legitimate aim and target switch potential while keeping the worst-looking parts of swing manipulation.

76 153
  • 17 Nov '18
 intTobey

@Monsteri said:
Tight turncap in the early release would be really bad, you remove all legitimate aim and target switch potential while keeping the worst-looking parts of swing manipulation.

Hmm, yeah. I think target switching is usually done in late release, but I see what you mean. I guess this has to be solved without messing with turncaps, since turncaps affect more than accel/drag potential.

4 18
  • 17 Nov '18
 kwazi

biggest cancers i've seen are related to
lunge making judging distance in a small scale inconsistent thanks to lunge
lunge going forward and dragging past people and allowing attacks to instahit to make an insane mixup
late ripostes blending parry animations + windup to create twisty wristy anims that are hard to see, and you can put them inside people's faces (the parry return to neutral + windup mixing up creates some wacky anims, i feel you need to follow some fighting game examples for animating)
attacks appearing to hit early thanks to the camera positioning, the headshots hit earlier than you see the strike hitting you because the camera seems to be below head level

4 2
  • 17 Nov '18
 repent

garbage video, release time dosent affect instahit

Knight 925 2541
  • 17 Nov '18
 Pred

@kwazi said:
late ripostes blending parry animations + windup to create twisty wristy anims that are hard to see, and you can put them inside people's faces (the parry return to neutral + windup mixing up creates some wacky anims, i feel you need to follow some fighting game examples for animating)

Absolute cancer, yes. Nothing seems to improve in this department since the beginning.

Duchess 774 3449
  • 17 Nov '18
 Stouty

@repent said:
garbage video, release time dosent affect instahit

by definition it would giru, why are u on an alt anyway I remember that profile pic from your smurf

239 289
  • 18 Nov '18
 idiotgod

@Stouty said:
That's weird Huggles, I remember the game being marketed with "skill based combat" rather than "gamble parry combat"

What? Did you ignore everything Huggles said in his comment? He is talking about broadening gameplay by making positioning as important a factor as reactions. if you get your opponent out of position it is fine if they should have to gamble, that is all he is saying. And you are just like "I am shtouty and what is shkill bashed combat is only reaction speed and positioning shouldn't be a factor or it isn't shkilled enuf for me shtouty the shkilled."

know what I mean?

Duchess 774 3449
  • 18 Nov '18
 Stouty

@idiotgod said:
What? Did you ignore everything Huggles said in his comment?

That's usually a good rule of thumb to follow. Huggles made a cretinous deconstruction of the genre which can be applied to any competitive game without offering any insight. You might want to re-watch the video and pay attention to my positioning as it's very apparent I'm not coming in from a diagonal angle to force an insta but straight up facing them, even with some distance between us.

It's really frustrating when low-tier turkeys like yourself try petitioning for Christmas because I know damn well you would crumble within 2 duels vs me abusing insta's and if the devs read comments re-affirming that there's no issue then we (the competitive players who probably make up the largest $% of the backers) can end up stuck with a broken game

3234 4260
Duke 2266 4007
  • 19 Nov '18
 Huggles

@Stouty said:

@idiotgod said:
What? Did you ignore everything Huggles said in his comment?

That's usually a good rule of thumb to follow. Huggles made a cretinous deconstruction of the genre which can be applied to any competitive game without offering any insight. You might want to re-watch the video and pay attention to my positioning as it's very apparent I'm not coming in from a diagonal angle to force an insta but straight up facing them, even with some distance between us.

It's really frustrating when low-tier turkeys like yourself try petitioning for Christmas because I know damn well you would crumble within 2 duels vs me abusing insta's and if the devs read comments re-affirming that there's no issue then we (the competitive players who probably make up the largest $% of the backers) can end up stuck with a broken game

Lmao, no your video actually emphasizes my point. To prove that you cannot deal with accelerated attacls, you stand perfectly still right in front of your opponent relying purely on your reaction time.

That's really not what you ought to be doing. You should be using good footwork, body manipulation, attack angling, and buffering.

If all attacks no matter what were very much readable, then the game would be very stale and all victories would come down to stamina management.

@Stouty said:
That's weird Huggles, I remember the game being marketed with "skill based combat" rather than "gamble parry combat"

The fact that doing anything short of standing perfectly still and hard reading (not doing anything) in response to your opponent is immediately labeled a gamble is pretty silly in and of itself tbh.


Ideally defense in the game comes down to more than simply not pressing rmb or pressing rmb.

Duke 2266 4007
  • 19 Nov '18
 Huggles

The states of the game that were the most objectively readable were also some of the most stale and least fun patches btw.

  • Patch 15 with very weak drags/feints/morphs

  • Patch 9 with the absurd parry lockouts

Chambers currently exist as an equalizer for strong offense for a reason btw.

Knight 1269 3804
  • 1
  • 19 Nov '18
 Frise

@Huggles said:
If all attacks no matter what were very much readable, then the game would be very stale and all victories would come down to stamina management.

No, offense being unreadable by itself is precisely what makes the combat so braindead and boring right now. Having to put effort to make something readable when the attacker did nothing skillful is shitty game design. As the attacker you should be asked to put effort into your offense to make yourself less readable, otherwise you get ridiculous skill barriers like feints in Chivalry, where any idiot can pull off something that the defender needs hundreds of hours of practice to read.

The reason the patches where stuff was readable were boring is that the combat is based and balanced solely on feints, delays and accels. Anything else has always been a gimmick. When the combat revolves around this solely, of course one of those has to be unreadable or absurdely powerful in order for the skill ceiling to remain high. What you get tho, is shitty combat, as is the case right now. Attackers have nothing to do but feint, accel or delay, and it leads to everyone doing the same thing, as you can see from stouty's, giru's, and any competitive player's POV. Since everybody does the same thing, that thing has to be powerful enough to maintain the skill ceiling. Instead of needing one thing to be absurdely powerful, give attackers more posibilities to outplay the defender, and the skill ceiling is raised without having bullshit unreadable feints or accels.

Attacks being unreadable on their own is Tornbanner-tier game design. It's a lazy way to maintain a high skill ceiling without making the combat interesting.

Duke 2266 4007
  • 2
  • 19 Nov '18
 Huggles

@Frise said:

@Huggles said:
If all attacks no matter what were very much readable, then the game would be very stale and all victories would come down to stamina management.

No, offense being unreadable by itself is precisely what makes the combat so braindead and boring right now. Having to put effort to make something readable when the attacker did nothing skillful is shitty game design. As the attacker you should be asked to put effort into your offense to make yourself less readable, otherwise you get ridiculous skill barriers like feints in Chivalry, where any idiot can pull off something that the defender needs hundreds of hours of practice to read.

The reason the patches where stuff was readable were boring is that the combat is based and balanced solely on feints, delays and accels. Anything else has always been a gimmick. When the combat revolves around this solely, of course one of those has to be unreadable or absurdely powerful in order for the skill ceiling to remain high. What you get tho, is shitty combat, as is the case right now. Attackers have nothing to do but feint, accel or delay, and it leads to everyone doing the same thing, as you can see from stouty's, giru's, and any competitive player's POV. Since everybody does the same thing, that thing has to be powerful enough to maintain the skill ceiling. Instead of needing one thing to be absurdely powerful, give attackers more posibilities to outplay the defender, and the skill ceiling is raised without having bullshit unreadable feints or accels.

Attacks being unreadable on their own is Tornbanner-tier game design. It's a lazy way to maintain a high skill ceiling without making the combat interesting.

Not wanting everything being perfectly readable =/= wanting nothing to be readable.

I agree with everything else you said, but in reality it also confirms the idea that not everything should be perfectly readable. Your idea is instead to add so many variables that one cannot possibly keep track of every one of them, which is absolutely great in my view and not a knock on your idea. If there are too many variables for anyone to keep constant track of you get more unique outplays as opposed to the same boring shit playing out the same way all the time. And rather than the top players just being mechanically superior reaction bots, they also have to be creative, strategic, and able to coordinate.

1083 1717

This game is 90% timing and it's boring. You either first frame hit or last frame hit while making it look like the other. Anything else came from a morph drag/feint.

It's not like anyone in real life forgets to raise their sword or drops their guard because your attack is super slow.

I refuse to believe more location based defense ruins team play until we see it in action. The one patch where location played the most importance (Patch 14?) was the most fun I had in both duels and team play. This was especially true for shield balance.

Can we get say 70% timing with 30% directional accuracy???

Duke 2266 4007
  • 19 Nov '18
 Huggles

@Lionheart Chevalier said:
This game is 90% timing and it's boring. You either first frame hit or last frame hit while making it look like the other. Anything else came from a morph drag/feint.

It's not like anyone in real life forgets to raise their sword or drops their guard because your attack is super slow.

I refuse to believe more location based defense ruins team play until we see it in action. The one patch where location played the most importance (Patch 14?) was the most fun I had in both duels and team play. This was especially true for shield balance.

Can we get say 70% timing with 30% directional accuracy???

locational play was best in the last test patch of patch 17 and it was rly fun imho.

76 153
  • 19 Nov '18
 intTobey

Please excuse my ignorance, but what exactly do you guys mean by 'locational' play? I'm not familiar with that terminology. Do you mean positioning and dodging?

Duchess 774 3449
  • 19 Nov '18
 Stouty

@Huggles said:
Lmao, no your video actually emphasizes my point. To prove that you cannot deal with accelerated attacls, you stand perfectly still right in front of your opponent relying purely on your reaction time.

Just ignore the 3 minutes of raw duel instas then OK

Knight 196 414

@intTobey said:
Please excuse my ignorance, but what exactly do you guys mean by 'locational' play? I'm not familiar with that terminology. Do you mean positioning and dodging?

They're referring to when the parry hitbox wasn't so giant, so if you attacked someone's legs, they actually had to aim their parry at their legs to successfully parry the attack; if you attacked their head, they had to defend their head, etc., etc.

76 153
  • 19 Nov '18
 intTobey

@Prince Oberyn Martell said:

@intTobey said:
Please excuse my ignorance, but what exactly do you guys mean by 'locational' play? I'm not familiar with that terminology. Do you mean positioning and dodging?

They're referring to when the parry hitbox wasn't so giant, so if you attacked someone's legs, they actually had to aim their parry at their legs to successfully parry the attack; if you attacked their head, they had to defend their head, etc., etc.

Well that definitely sounds like it raises the skill ceiling. Unfortunately, it puts most of the burden of skill on the defender, which I think would make it way too easy to die and would promote gambley playstyles to try to steal initiative. Plus, who likes trying to defend against weird-ass OH foot drags? Even just a sideways slash that aims for the foot is hard to read when they shift aim just as they're about to hit.

Why did they increase the parry size?

396 453
  • 19 Nov '18
 JasonBourne

@Prince Oberyn Martell said:

@intTobey said:
Please excuse my ignorance, but what exactly do you guys mean by 'locational' play? I'm not familiar with that terminology. Do you mean positioning and dodging?

They're referring to when the parry hitbox wasn't so giant, so if you attacked someone's legs, they actually had to aim their parry at their legs to successfully parry the attack; if you attacked their head, they had to defend their head, etc., etc.

According to crush, the parrybox was always the same. U didnt need to aim feet to parry the feet. The only difference was it was an angled parry instead of box parry but didnt work as supposed to.