Mordhau

Instant Hit Discussion

Duchess 590 2361
  • 2
  • 14 Nov
 Stouty

Update: new patch has largely fixed the issue

No offense intended to Crush or the devs, if I didn't believe the game had huge potential or wasn't already in a superb state I wouldn't bother giving detailed criticisms

Knight 857 2254
  • 1
  • 14 Nov
 Frise

Maybe if Crush did his job instead of protecting Giru we wouldn't have the same problems that he said he was fixing more than a year ago.

By this point I truly believe that this is just Crush's way of balancing things. After all, there has been no incentive to make anything other than feints, delays and accels viable options. Of course with such a limited palette of combat options, one or all of these have to be absurdely powerful in order to maintain a high skill ceiling.

We have constantly seen either patches where something is blatantly unreadable (accels, stab feints, foot drags), or the combat is stale.

How about, make direction relevant, maybe try out the AP clash thing I proposed in a different thread along with current riposte armour so that direction emphasis doesn't ruin 1vX, and for the love of god increase stab releases. Why are they still so overnerfed? It's not like stab delays are useful in any situation right now.

Or maybe add a new mechanic. I'm not talking about gimmicks, I'm saying something that actually adds depth to the combat. Maybe unique attacks for different weapons. Polearms get a quick, short shove with the butt end. Billhook, halberd and axes hook you with negative knockback. One-handers throw a quick, short punch. Swords could get a false edge cut with a cool new tracer, maybe it's an inbetween of a stab and a slash, so you can use it to get behind parries. Spear gets a quicker but less powerful stab.

If there were more combat options other than the same 3 moves, we wouldn't need unreadable stuff to have stronger offense than defence, and devs could make stuff properly readable without risking a bland meta.

Conscript 4259 5453
  • 8
  • 14 Nov
 vanguard

All true tbh, game too fast. It's like DW, I remember some samurai swords having a fucking fast release that was a pain to read. Chivalry had a lot of this too, it just wasn't as used because backswings existed. Maa's and sow knights did this frequently.

I had a comrade who was really good at doing this back in chiv with the greatsword overhead, absolute pain to read it, real subtle drag tbh

Knight 2896 6415
  • 14 Nov
 Punzybobo

Great video Stouty.

Knight 495 3078
  • 14 Nov
 rob_owner

the release doesnt make an attack hit you any later if youre maxing out an attacks potential for "instahitting". The release doesnt make it any less instant. The slow motion test slows literally everything down, windups, early release, turncap is stricter, not just the release. if release alone were slowed down or made longer or whatever, it would probably make things worse because you'd be able to max out how late in the tracer you could hit even easier so youre going to be encouraged to try to hard read a mixup that was just made even harder and it would probably be able to outlast parry way easier.

346 358

If attacks are to be slowed down, then parry time must be buffed to compensate it. Accels would be readable and parrying drags would be the same as now because of compensation. Maybe itll work yea. Worth a try I think.

Also the ripost animations need more crispy windup anim. Especially that lmb ripost.

346 358
  • 14 Nov
 JasonBourne

@vanguard said:
All true tbh, game too fast. It's like DW, I remember some samurai swords having a fucking fast release that was a pain to read. Chivalry had a lot of this too, it just wasn't as used because backswings existed. Maa's and sow knights did this frequently.

I had a comrade who was really good at doing this back in chiv with the greatsword overhead, absolute pain to read it, real subtle drag tbh

I come from DW and yea the swings are super fast, but it wasnt unbalanced because it had damage reduction. Accels did the least damage.

38 42
  • 14 Nov
 Cow

this is a really great video stouty, i will try to talk with my point of view.

i think the analogy with sound could work to represent what happend durring a hit:

adsr modif.jpg

In my opinion the attack time is way to short or non exponential, you just have to look down to bypass the attack time, some weapons have initialy more sustain or decay (call it whatever you want) than others, really practical for drags. i'm ok to have a short attack on dagger or short sword but not on big ranged weapons like hallberd, bardish, or battle axe who can 2 shots a fully armored knight.

After that there is another problem you can confond with the short attack time problem. The parry box problem.
sometimes you can swing inside your oppenent or to be more explicit behind him in his back that he can't parry, hallberd for exemple have a big range and can goes through him and hit his back feets so you can litteraly bypass his parry sometimes, i havn't exemple to show but it happens a lot!

Knight 606 1511
  • 14 Nov
 Pred

Some gud points there Spouty.

I had thought that broken timings and anims were there because devs hadn't fixed them yet, but now I just kinda accept it is what it is and devs either can't (anims) or don't want to (timings) change it. No changes to instas for such a long time and additions like Cleaver make me think this is just the design they want.

Devs put themselves in a trap - they took everything timings-wise, mechanics-wise and weapons-wise from Chivalry, added a supposedly major mechanic in chambers which looked good on paper, but when chambers turned out to be a flop, they were left with a very limited material to work with as there is nothing left to squeeze out of Chivalry combat. The base is only feints and accels/decels, there is no threat of a backswing so the absurd accels had to take their place, or drags wouldn't work on experienced players. Finding something else to make the combat deeper and better would probably need a major rework, and it's way too late for that.

881 6122
  • 14 Nov
 marox — Project Lead

@Stouty said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLoxheVshFQ&feature=youtu.be

No offense intended to Crush or the devs, if I didn't believe the game had huge potential or wasn't already in a superb state I wouldn't bother giving detailed criticisms

Thanks for making the video! I don't generally agree with the points made regarding what exactly is the problem, but the examples are pretty telling on their own. Over time we've remedied aspects of this problem, but the issue at large persists. It mostly has to do with attack manipulation in the early part of the release, it doesn't specifically have anything to do with animations or release times. Sure, changing those can affect this somewhat, but it would also affect other parts of the game where this isn't a problem. Instahits occur when the velocity of the hand/weapon inherent in the release animation combined with the mouse-look manipulation produces a velocity that's above a certain threshold. Of course attack animations in that early state come out quite fast, but that's how these things generally look physically, and add to that attack manipulation, where turncaps are lax enough and you get a speed that's quite excessive. On their own, both of those aspects are fine, attacks need to look physical, and turncaps need to be lax enough to not feel restrictive. The problem is just when these are combined in the early part of the release.

I'll make the point again, as you can also see in the video, the problem is the velocity in question, not the time when something hits you. Doing an overhead while looking at the ground is fine. Performing the looking down while that overhead starts to travel is the part that's problematic, because suddenly it moves at an insane speed. There's various procedural tricks we can try to remedy this, so we'll play around with it a bit and see if something can be done tackling the issue from this angle.

14 22
  • 14 Nov
 Vaygr

I can only imagine this is from Stouty playing the Culling with Crush and Crush being heavily influenced by the melee combat. Now Stouty feels like he let the community down and needs redemption. Its like Darth Vader climbing back down the air vent to gather the atoms of the emperor together again for one last shot at the light side.

Mercenary 1984 3396

@marox said:

@Stouty said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLoxheVshFQ&feature=youtu.be

No offense intended to Crush or the devs, if I didn't believe the game had huge potential or wasn't already in a superb state I wouldn't bother giving detailed criticisms

Thanks for making the video! I don't generally agree with the points made regarding what exactly is the problem, but the examples are pretty telling on their own. Over time we've remedied aspects of this problem, but the issue at large persists. It mostly has to do with attack manipulation in the early part of the release, it doesn't specifically have anything to do with animations or release times. Sure, changing those can affect this somewhat, but it would also affect other parts of the game where this isn't a problem. Instahits occur when the velocity of the hand/weapon inherent in the release animation combined with the mouse-look manipulation produces a velocity that's above a certain threshold. Of course attack animations in that early state come out quite fast, but that's how these things generally look physically, and add to that attack manipulation, where turncaps are lax enough and you get a speed that's quite excessive. On their own, both of those aspects are fine, attacks need to look physical, and turncaps need to be lax enough to not feel restrictive. The problem is just when these are combined in the early part of the release.

I'll make the point again, as you can also see in the video, the problem is the velocity in question, not the time when something hits you. Doing an overhead while looking at the ground is fine. Performing the looking down while that overhead starts to travel is the part that's problematic, because suddenly it moves at an insane speed. There's various procedural tricks we can try to remedy this, so we'll play around with it a bit and see if something can be done tackling the issue from this angle.

I'm no expert but I think Deleting Mordhua.exe could help.

Duchess 590 2361
  • 14 Nov
 Stouty

Praise Marox. Thanks for the explanation and good luck with the fix

Mercenary 45 83
  • 3
  • 14 Nov
 daWASTI

In my eyes this problem stems from keyframes that need to be stretched out. One can surprise with incredibly fast attacks even later in the release, because certain parts of the release speed up too much while the rest is fairly slow. The perfect example for this is Battle Axe, which can be seen in a little clip i recorded at 48 ping (netcode is another big issue that comes into play in reading attacks)

As you can see one can easily exploit these faster parts of the release by draging for a certain amount of time and then speeding the attack up at the right time.

Another easy fix for instahits in the early release would be to add more turncap to the windup such that accels look more like they should and surprise less.

Knight 127 295
  • 14 Nov
 AngelEyes

I abhor that little chode wanna-be scimitar when he grows up cleaver thing and now it's following me around.I regularly check Kult of Athena's new items list and to my horror the other day:

MHK1810_l

51 45
  • 15 Nov
 idiotgod

@Frise said:

If there were more combat options other than the same 3 moves, we wouldn't need unreadable stuff to have stronger offense than defence, and devs could make stuff properly readable without risking a bland meta.

like changing weapon modes mid combo?

Duchess 590 2361
  • 15 Nov
 Stouty

@daWASTI said:
In my eyes this problem stems from keyframes that need to be stretched out.

This was the conclusion I was hoping the video would lead to, where the release is adjusted at the start, helping the reading of accels without increasing the float as hard

It sounds like the team have some fancier solutions up their sleeves so I'm down for whatever works

Duke 2176 3654
  • 16 Nov
 Huggles

I think the main issue comes from expecting the game to be a reaction test first and foremost. I don't agree with balancing the game in that way and I think it's perfectly fine if there are some instances where given how you and your opponent are positioned and moving some things might not be very readable.

I think if no matter what you can always press rmb at the right moment and it is fairly readable in that respect regardless of things like positioning, the game will in fact be rather stale. Especially with the mechanics as they are now.

However, I think if more mechanics and depth are added to the combat as Frise suggests I'd prob rethink my perspective.

Duchess 590 2361
  • 16 Nov
 Stouty

That's weird Huggles, I remember the game being marketed with "skill based combat" rather than "gamble parry combat"

76 151
  • 5
  • 16 Nov
 intTobey

I've been recording little clips of this phenomenon lately, where the windup is cocked way back then accelerates to hit unbelievably fast. On review in slow-mo, you see only 2-3 frames of release. That's not even enough to perceive the motion of the attack, let alone react to it. I thought it was just lag. I'm glad it's a problem that Triternion understands and is working to fix.

Would it be helpful if turn caps were variable throughout the release, starting tight, then loosening the longer the attack is in release? This might fix the early release accel problems while still allowing drags. It would also promote footwork to dodge attacks in early release, while still allowing attempts to guide the swing back on target.