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The Future Of Drag/Accel Reading

17 49
  • 4 Nov '18
 Rhike

Last patch, we've had legitimate concerns about long weapons being unreadable such as the GS and bardiche. Thankfully, that has been somewhat addressed. Can any skilled players who have played against the changed weapons, or any long weapons in patch 18, confirm that you ARE able to read them to a large extent? For example, an 80% chance to read drag/accel of BAxe (sounds unrealistic to me).

Another point is, does the "ideal balance" require these attacks to be somewhat unreadable, so that offense is stronger than defense? If so, can we agree on the percentages and playtest them thoroughly until we reach readable animations and release times?

I've heard some people talk about 50/50s meta being in the game again, but I'd guess it applies to morphs more than accel/drags. Still, try to fight Pac and see how much you can read.

Conscript 192 478
  • 2
  • 4 Nov '18
 Shovonem

From my chiv experience I don't think feint was ever 100% readable and I don't think it's supposed to be. Since feint and morph follow similar principle I'd say this applies here as well. I saw the best way to deal with feint was to utilize different tactics and 'increasing your chance' to read the feint/drag.

Reading feint is a combination of 3 things:

  1. Animation reading: just plain reading. Learning to parry at the last possible second.

  2. Footwork and positioning: being unpredictable with footwork to mess with opponents aim and give you more time to react.

  3. Prediction: Some people call it gambling but in reality every good player learn to predict to some degree. If you learn feinting patterns and grow a sense of when people use it, you expect it. When you expect a feint your
    brain focus a lot more on the incoming attack and you can react better because of that focus. It is not humanely possible to focus 100% on each attack your opponent is landing. Prediction helps you focus on the right time. Also with experience you automatically use certain footwork tactics when expecting a feint. It's a second nature.

That being said, if people can react to every single attack and read consistently it would be impossible to hit them. So it will be never be possible to read 100% of the attacks. But each attack should be readable. Let's say that your opponent just feinted you. You reacted at the final moment, you utilized the best possible footwork and you expected it. Then the attack should be 100% readable. However, it's not humanely possible to get these 3 things perfectly right each attack. That's why you can never read 100% of attacks. Most of the time even decent players get 1-2 things right.

Of course chivalry is a poor example considering how much retarded animation and lag we had to deal with and I don't think the attack animations are perfect in Mordhau but I am telling you the general idea behind attacks not being readable all the time. Not saying Mordhau animation don't need work.

17 49
  • 4 Nov '18
 Rhike

That's not what I said tho. Why are you schooling me about feints.

Duke 5558 13284
  • 4 Nov '18
 Jax — Community Manager

The new swing arcs introduced a few patches ago fixed that for the most part.

If you're good enough you still probably won't be able to 100% read every drag or accel, which is good. If every attack was super readable defense would be the meta and high-level fights would be realllly stale. That being said, the skill floor is pretty high for reading them, it's definitely possible to react to timing mixups and defend against them. I can hold my own against dragg weapons pretty well, not just by being experienced in reading the attack but also passive measures like proper footwork/positioning and understanding timing/initiative.

Duchess 806 3550
  • 5 Nov '18
 Stouty

Defence is already the meta and always will be for talented players. If unreadable attacks exist then high-level fights are determined by who has the most un-readable hits which is an awful random meta and will make people quit out of frustration. Imagine implementing desync hits from chiv as a way to quicken ttk, it's the same concept as keeping unreadable instas in the game

(we can't tell if instas are currently in the live build due to server lag tho)

Knight 685 1855
  • 5 Nov '18
 ÐMontyleGueux

My only issue with the defence in the game has been in since the beginning of the alpha. It's the fact that the parry is server sided, causing a lot of parries to fail where they should have worked. It makes defence very frustrating since you can't parry at the last second if your ping is above 60, and can't really react to what your opponent is doing.

1430 2175

My biggest frustration as a 90-120 ping player DMontyle... but wouldn't there be alot of other issues by switching parry to client side?

Knight 685 1855
  • 5 Nov '18
 ÐMontyleGueux

The parry doesn't need to be entirely client sided, I'm pretty sure that some lag correction can be specifically added around the one most crucial mechanic of the game. It should be expected that the parry works for any ping below 80 (higher than that is known to be less than ideal anyway, people will expect issues).

I really hope that it will be implemented at some point. Releasing the game while parry doesn't work properly above 60 ping might cause bad publicity.
I'm an alpha player, I may consistently die due to late parries, but I understand why and will patiently wait for a fix. Newcomers on release might just leave the game as soon as they die 3 times in a row to hits they should have parried.

988 6974
  • 6 Nov '18
 marox — Project Lead

@ÐMontyleGueux said:
The parry doesn't need to be entirely client sided, I'm pretty sure that some lag correction can be specifically added around the one most crucial mechanic of the game. It should be expected that the parry works for any ping below 80 (higher than that is known to be less than ideal anyway, people will expect issues).

I really hope that it will be implemented at some point. Releasing the game while parry doesn't work properly above 60 ping might cause bad publicity.
I'm an alpha player, I may consistently die due to late parries, but I understand why and will patiently wait for a fix. Newcomers on release might just leave the game as soon as they die 3 times in a row to hits they should have parried.

You can use m.DebugNetworkParry 1 to see if the netcode is to blame, although that doesn't work on kills, but should give a clear indication if it's a problem with the game or a problem of git gud. Clientside parry would incur hitreg delay and generally feel awful for the attacker. For comparison, Chivalry's parry is attacker client-side (what you're asking for is defender client-side), so actually twice as bad in terms of delay compared to what Mordhau uses.

Knight 1269 3811
  • 7 Nov '18
 Frise

@Jax said:
The new swing arcs introduced a few patches ago fixed that for the most part.

joy.png

140 66
  • 1
  • 21 Nov '18
 s522662

morphs and feints are bad, end of story

Knight 321 611
  • 26 Nov '18
 Duckalot

@marox said:

You can use m.DebugNetworkParry 1 to see if the netcode is to blame, although that doesn't work on kills, but should give a clear indication if it's a problem with the game or a problem of git gud. Clientside parry would incur hitreg delay and generally feel awful for the attacker. For comparison, Chivalry's parry is attacker client-side (what you're asking for is defender client-side), so actually twice as bad in terms of delay compared to what Mordhau uses.

Ima go ahead and necro this abit. Dont know if im the only one experiencing this, probably not. But here is how a regular Duel session goes for me. These pictures are taken from a single match, and i played like +20 duels in total. I missed several screenshots but these are at least half of them i manage to take.

20181126161124_1.jpg20181126161339_1.jpg20181126163615_1.jpg20181126163704_1.jpg20181126163712_1.jpg20181126163928_1.jpg20181126164146_1.jpg

If it helps, i had around 50 ping and my opponent had 80-90. But from what i've seen the ping difference doesnt make any difference for me.
And its almost exclusively accelerated attacks and ripostes that can get through my parry like this.