Mordhau

Does Mordhau Really Need Feints as the Main Aspect of Combat?

94 102
  • 14 Sep '18
 TheShade

Drags being hated in Chivalry is a pretty huge misconception. Just look at the steam community forums and reviews about it. Not many hates it and those that does just get attacked by the community for not understanding the mechanic. It's fun and gives depth, you need skill to pull it off and you need skill to defend against it. A noob can pickup good feinting withing an hour and then make a 3k hour chiv vet start panicking. No one can read Chivalry feints conistently since it has 15ms between a feints windup limit and release.

Visually feints don't look that great for neither the defender or attacker. If you feint you go back to your idle animation thensstart a new attack, which breaks the flow of combat. The defender just stands there without making any kind of "intense" movement. Feint reading is impressive for the competitive eye, but for noobs that don't really understand everything that's happening will find it looking boring. Imo feinting should not be the meta but an option.

301 875
  • 14 Sep '18
 Naleaus

@TheShade said:
It's fun and gives depth, you need skill to pull it off and you need skill to defend against it. A noob can pickup good feinting withing an hour and then make a 3k hour chiv vet start panicking.

This isn't Chiv, but let's carry on anyway.

No one can read Chivalry feints conistently since it has 15ms between a feints windup limit and release.

I don't play Chiv anymore, but pretty sure there's a 200ms cutoff on the feint window. Either way, it's not 15ms, so why make shit up?

Visually feints don't look that great for neither the defender or attacker.

Same with drags in Chivalry.

The defender just stands there without making any kind of "intense" movement. Feint reading is impressive for the competitive eye, but for noobs that don't really understand everything that's happening will find it looking boring.

If this is how you try to read feints, maybe that's the problem. How do you defend against a drag? By using footwork and pressing the parry or trying to punish. How do you defend against feints? By using footwork and not pressing parry and/or trying to punish. They're not that different.

It's fine if you like chiv drag meta, whatever. But give better reasoning.

94 102
  • 4
  • 15 Sep '18
 TheShade

@Naleaus said:

@TheShade said:
It's fun and gives depth, you need skill to pull it off and you need skill to defend against it. A noob can pickup good feinting withing an hour and then make a 3k hour chiv vet start panicking.

This isn't Chiv, but let's carry on anyway.

No one can read Chivalry feints conistently since it has 15ms between a feints windup limit and release.

I don't play Chiv anymore, but pretty sure there's a 200ms cutoff on the feint window. Either way, it's not 15ms, so why make shit up?

Visually feints don't look that great for neither the defender or attacker.

Same with drags in Chivalry.

The defender just stands there without making any kind of "intense" movement. Feint reading is impressive for the competitive eye, but for noobs that don't really understand everything that's happening will find it looking boring.

If this is how you try to read feints, maybe that's the problem. How do you defend against a drag? By using footwork and pressing the parry or trying to punish. How do you defend against feints? By using footwork and not pressing parry and/or trying to punish. They're not that different.

It's fine if you like chiv drag meta, whatever. But give better reasoning.

Most feints are read by backpedling, staying passive and waiting for the end of the animation. Drags and reverses require more footwork to defend against.

Watch this fight between rick and stouty and you see how highlevel fights looks like and how dull and slowpaced it looks if you ignore the drags, reverses and accels. Watch the fights at 0:03 and 1:32. https://youtu.be/a4fnwirrp_M

Also this. https://youtu.be/cJVdV8gwQmA

What makes these fights somewhat interesting is the variation of moves that are being used. I'm for the removal of morph matching, but not at the cost of feints and morphs becoming too strong.

301 875
  • 15 Sep '18
 Naleaus

Maybe rewatch the first video and not cherry pick a single fight. Rick just backpedaled all the reverses and mostly got hit cause shit animation. Real fun to watch. Stouty did a whole bunch of dumb looking shit and got punished. Then check out the footwork that happens when Rick falls for a feint, or the early parries and then footwork to give time to catch the follow-up. The drags were the least interesting shit in that video.

94 102
  • 15 Sep '18
 TheShade

@Naleaus said:
Maybe rewatch the first video and not cherry pick a single fight. Rick just backpedaled all the reverses and mostly got hit cause shit animation. Real fun to watch. Stouty did a whole bunch of dumb looking shit and got punished. Then check out the footwork that happens when Rick falls for a feint, or the early parries and then footwork to give time to catch the follow-up. The drags were the least interesting shit in that video.

To parry any reverse you sinpmy use footwork around your opponent. No one backpedals for reverses lol. I'm talking about footwork to read a feint, not to recover from falling from it. Objectively those fights were slowpaced. Slow for many casuals = boring.

What's interesting is the art of variating moves being used and not drags itself.

301 875
  • 15 Sep '18
 Naleaus

Cause they're duels. Add in drags and they're still slow paced. You're still just waiting for an attack to end so you can regain initiative. Without feints they're even slower because people take longer to die. Causing your attack to float in the air or spinning around to hit your opponent looks bad for casual viewers and even worse it's confusing to them. But why are we even talking about reverses or Chivalry tier drags? They're not coming back in Mordhau. At least Frise only advocates for subtle side drags.

And, hey, guess what, mixups still happen in Mordhau just like Chiv.

Baron 1551 2085
  • 15 Sep '18
 yourcrippledson

@Huggles said:
I think it is silly to think the game will ever look realistic with free form combat. It just has to look like people are being aggressive and fighting in real time as opposed to being passive and taking turns. Will never look remotely historical accurate.

What Monsteri said about swing manipulation making you feel more engaged in the combat and like you are the main driver behind the attack instead of doing some pre-scripted move is 100% true and the biggest thing I like about drags. I always kind of viewed feints as a necessary evil as opposed to an interesting game mechanic. I just don't feel as satisfied following up after a feint as I do pulling off a side stab or side overhead.

Fundamentally, you "read" a feint by doing nothing. If the best way to deal with a move is doing nothing, it isn't really engaging.

I hear it's all the same. Stouty "feints are the same as drags"
Naelas "it's all about making your attacks look like shit, it's all the same"

These guys have hours and status, so how can you argue?

Knight 475 919
  • 15 Sep '18
 wierHL

@vanguard said:
Noob X noob is by far the most hilarious thing to ever happen to this kind of game, I love playing with noobs lmao sometimes they are so fucking unpredictable, it is very educative to get hit by a noob tbh, shows glaring flaws in your playstile.

Always happy to help.

52 40
  • 15 Sep '18
 PhillyCheesesteak

@TheShade said:

Watch this fight between rick and stouty and you see how highlevel fights looks like and how dull and slowpaced it looks if you ignore the drags, reverses and accels.

Implying Naleus isn't high level, lol

Duke 2266 4009
  • 1
  • 15 Sep '18
 Huggles

Those fights weren't really interesting at all. Extraordinarily boring to watch. Mordhau is a huge improvement for sure. Trix's latest video makes people really want to play the game. Stouty's duels in chiv would prob put people to sleep tbh.

Knight 445 1074
  • 2
  • 17 Sep '18
 Knight Nicholas

Yeesh, just reading through this thread is giving me a worried headache. I'm glad we're getting so many ways to fight and have fun outside of regular melee combat, cause otherwise I feel like this divide between what the melee combat "should be" is going to inevitably shove away some large chunk of the community- not to the degree Chivalry had, where what few players who remain that like the current combat system of the game are now filling up a few duel yards- but at least to the degree that there will be some chaos among some parts of the player base, after release, when they start getting into the depths of how the combat works. I have next-to-no-experience with game balance regarding to games like Mordhau, but I think, after reading through this thread, that the devs should strive for balance between different "unabusive" melee playstyles to allow each player to play the way they feel comfortable with, while also describing in their tutorials what defines the limits of "abusive" in the gameplay of Mordhau.

Knight 3303 6769
  • 2
  • 20 Sep '18
 Bodkin

At least therealDrNick agrees...

Conscript 4561 6301
  • 20 Sep '18
 vanguard

intense fast paced high level duels

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  • 1
  • 21 Sep '18
 s522662

the thing that makes no sense is to know what truly looks good, this is all subjective/abstract. drags, feints, and morphs are all brain dead mechanics but the level of freedom to it makes it complex/professionally useful.

140 66
  • 21 Sep '18
 s522662

preventing emergent attacks makes the game however linear, everyone would/ would be able to do the same attack. Either your promoting a "who has a better combos of feints/morphs" game or one where you can kill an opponent by your decision that you think is more efficient/cool

140 66
  • 21 Sep '18
 s522662

bet that this game will be dark souls in the near the future

Conscript 9 6
  • 2
  • 21 Sep '18
 ApartmentDJ

I'm also not a fan of the spastic state of combat used by the more skilled players. It just looks ridiculous, feels less skill based and isn't going to make for a fun game to watch competitively. Ideally the game will rely more on skill based chambering rather vomiting your camera everywhere and crouching like a madman

Knight 3303 6769
  • 21 Sep '18
 Bodkin

Triple commenting is a brain dead mechanic