Mordhau
Mordhau Merch
Check out our merch shop!

Does Mordhau Really Need Feints as the Main Aspect of Combat?

Knight 1269 3811
  • 12 Sep '18
 Frise

@PhillyCheesesteak said:

@Frise said:

@PhillyCheesesteak said:
If SA means South America, then the reason feints are hard to read should be pretty obvious - your ping.

You're not the smartest tool in the shed are ya

I hear ad hominem is a solid argument and not a logical fallacy.

I hear that when you play in South America with South Americans you don't get high ping because you're playing on the same continent and that any 8 year old is able to understand this concept without having to get it explained.

52 40

@Frise said:

@PhillyCheesesteak said:

@Frise said:

@PhillyCheesesteak said:
If SA means South America, then the reason feints are hard to read should be pretty obvious - your ping.

You're not the smartest tool in the shed are ya

I hear ad hominem is a solid argument and not a logical fallacy.

I hear that when you play in South America with South Americans you don't get high ping because you're playing on the same continent and that any 8 year old is able to understand this concept without having to get it explained.

You mentioned dueling against Naleus, who has good ping on the community duelyard which is in the U.S., suggesting he is in the US, and I was referencing that.

1430 2175

Side stabs and side over heads really are the most natural thing in the world. When my brother let me take a turn on his newest game, Chivalry, side hits and distance were the most logical and natural way to break someones defense. Not delay/accels and feints. Afterall aren't distancing, flanking and location deceptions how you break defense in a real sword fight? Imagine how dumbfounded I was when I encountered my first delay drags and head bang feints.

Side hits and waterfalls only look bad when the parry box is set so artificially huge and it appears this was done specifically to make side hits less viable and put the emphasis purely on timing.

100% agreement with Frise.

Knight 1269 3811
  • 12 Sep '18
 Frise

@PhillyCheesesteak said:
You mentioned dueling against Naleus, who has good ping on the community duelyard which is in the U.S., suggesting he is in the US, and I was referencing that.

Untitled.png

Knight 936 952
  • 12 Sep '18
 afiNity

Yes, why should one of the most effective gameplay mechanics be one of the easiest to execute? It literally doesn't make any sense, it's not good game design and it's definitely not "healthy".
Being able to drag around the enemy defense was one of the most fun aspects of Chivalry, the problem of Chivalry was just that the animations were bad and the system became flawed when people figured out how to abuse it (hence nowadawys meta).
But the initial idea behind that was great and Mordhau taking that away makes the game much more static.

Knight 3313 6811
  • 1
  • 12 Sep '18
 Bodkin

The primary reason I dislike overdone overhead drags with waterfalls and all that is that many times the timing difference between getting instant hit in the face and getting waterfalled is so miniscule that unless you crouch turtle, there are literally zero reliable ways to read them. You almost have to guess if this one will be the accel or not, because of the loose turncaps on very draggy weapons like LS and Messer. Like the difference between them instant hitting you or looking away at the right time is so close together man, I see no possible way to consistently block them other than forcing the block by running at it. Most of the time I can't even punish a miss if I dodge without a superspeed weapon because these weapons also tend to have fast combos

1430 2175

Waterfalls are usually microdrags @Bodkin. Aimed from the say, right side into the left side. They can become a foot drag but then it's simply a wrong side foot drag and is pretty awkward/dodgy (a step shy of impossible)to pull off due to the tracers and turn cap.

Waterfalls don't really fuck with timing and even less so now that chambers aren't susceptible to micro-dragging.

A waterfall is also rarely an accel since you're trying to trick him into blocking the wrong way by letting him see the attack before you turn it into his flank.

Edit: You block waterfalls the same way you block an unaltered overhead. Simply block where the attack will land and adjust your parry's aim as the attack becomes a waterfall.

80 286
  • 12 Sep '18
 wizardish

Or just press ctrl key and never have to worry about aiming your parry again. Just like in chiv.

Knight 292 904
  • 12 Sep '18
 GIRUGIRU

@Frise said:

Stab feints are near Chiv level in regards to readability though, I find bastard sword stab feints as unreadable as SoW feints.

chamber soft read + superior netcode + early release. Do not compare Chivalry feints to Mordhau feints - they're are not the same in terms of unreadability

No, that's not a fact. You can't claim it is a fact because it's not an objective truth. Swing manipulation is a vague term in this scenario anyway. Of course they don't comprehend it if it's not explained anywhere as an actual mechanic. You can't possibly argue that sidestabs look bad to outsiders, they're the most natural fucking thing. As for the more complex side drags, if parry was less lenient, you could adjust turncaps and/or release animations to make these drags less extreme in execution while still being viable. Like hitting your other shoulder during an overhead to bypass your parry.

nah it's a fact

Gotta love those fake-accel feint headbutts.

Fixed in mordhau, can't spasm your head on a feint like you can in chiv

  • Feints are easy to execute, but take skill to deal with. That lowers skill floor and keeps high skill ceiling (that's healthy for the game)

That's the complete opposite of healthy, are you out of your mind man? A mechanic that a player with 10 hours can use, being the most difficult thing to deal with in every skill level? Literally how is that healthy for the game? "Oh u wanna improve your offense nah man don't bother just keep doing the one thing u learned during ur first 10 hours of the game, it works against everyone" That's backwards game design.

If you're dying to noob feints you just need to learn to read. Genuinely a l2p issue - use Chiv pubs as an example

  • Feints are easy to balance with several variables (feint recovery, feint window, windup time, chambers etc.) In comparison to swing manipulation which will forever favour high release time weapons

You're only thinking about delays.

No i'm thinking about feints as a whole

  • Feint read is visually impressive

To us chiv nerds, sure. To outsiders it just looks like a dude wiggling his sword around and the other dude doing nothing.

It amuses me you would say this when you're trying to propose to make swing manipulation (again) the main offensive tool. This statement alone shows your confusion, and lack of understanding of the game's mechanics

1315 2881
Knight 1269 3811
  • 12 Sep '18
 Frise

@GIRUGIRU said:

@Frise said:

Stab feints are near Chiv level in regards to readability though, I find bastard sword stab feints as unreadable as SoW feints.

chamber soft read + superior netcode + early release. Do not compare Chivalry feints to Mordhau feints - they're are not the same in terms of unreadability

Yes they are, stab feints are as unreadable as in Chiv. If you don't realise this you're delusional. The only reason they're not as strong as in Chiv is because of chambers, but balancing unreadable stabs with chambers is just stupid because it forces you to chamber every stab or have to read something that isn't readable. And then comes the bastard sword stab chamber gambles and all that annoying stuff.

nah it's a fact

wow u got me there

Gotta love those fake-accel feint headbutts.

Fixed in mordhau, can't spasm your head on a feint like you can in chiv

????????????????????????? u can and people do so all the time? the fuck u on about mate

If you're dying to noob feints you just need to learn to read. Genuinely a l2p issue - use Chiv pubs as an example

I'm not, I don't play against noobs because the only people here playing the alpha are chiv veterans. I was referring to new players fighting players with hundreds of hours, not thousands. Of course I'm not gonna fall for bad feints, because I got past the high wall that is learning to read them. Players with 400 hours in the game, though, won't be able to consistently read feints and so will constantly get hit by new players pressing one button.

  • Feints are easy to balance with several variables (feint recovery, feint window, windup time, chambers etc.) In comparison to swing manipulation which will forever favour high release time weapons

You're only thinking about delays.

No i'm thinking about feints as a whole

What mate I'm saying that release time doesn't affect side drags as much as it does delays you dense wall. I've been repeating this shit for a docen posts, sidehits can be balanced with the parry box, turncap, release animations, and you can even balance them more in depth if you want to with dynamic parries and shit. Are you seriously this dense man come on.

  • Feint read is visually impressive

To us chiv nerds, sure. To outsiders it just looks like a dude wiggling his sword around and the other dude doing nothing.

It amuses me you would say this when you're trying to propose to make swing manipulation (again) the main offensive tool. This statement alone shows your confusion, and lack of understanding of the game's mechanics

lol ok giru show a feint reading montage to anyone that doesn't know about mordhau or chivalry and ask them how impressive it looks

Knight 1269 3811
396 454
Duchess 806 3550
  • 12 Sep '18
 Stouty

@Frise said:
lol ok giru show a feint reading montage to anyone that doesn't know about mordhau or chivalry and ask them how impressive it looks

anyone can get hype watching this, even more so when you understand the game like with any spectator (e)sport. This genre is much easier to understand than say DOTA

Knight 292 904
  • 12 Sep '18
 GIRUGIRU

WATTAGOD !

Knight 1269 3811
  • 12 Sep '18
 Frise

@Stouty you genuinely think anyone that doesn't play Chivalry finds that video impressive?

Duchess 806 3550
  • 12 Sep '18
 Stouty

Well they definitely won't find this impressive

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKDh5WQcGTk

just looks like he's hitting through parry

Knight 936 952
  • 12 Sep '18
 afiNity

It's about a design decision, the point was never that Chivalry is a perfect game,

Knight 1269 3811
  • 1
  • 12 Sep '18
 Frise

@Stouty said:
just looks like he's hitting through parry

Hmmm if only there was a way to make sidehits viable without making them so exaggerated . . . I wonder hmm... If the parry box wasn't so huge, I wonder if you could then sidehit without making such exaggerated drags... Hmmmmm .... I wish somebody had adressed this multiple times in this thread so that poor Stouty could just read that hmmmm

What about the video I just posted Stouty would that have looked like a magic attack going through my parry? Or would it have looked like I got hit because I blocked in the wrong direction?

Duchess 806 3550
  • 12 Sep '18
 Stouty

Why are you straw-manning me with side stabs when I was talking about waterfalls...

But there's also an argument to be made about having parries be reliable in chaotic team fights and the relative ease of switching attack direction compared to switching where your parry is looking at