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Does Mordhau Really Need Feints as the Main Aspect of Combat?

Knight 1269 3811
  • 11 Sep '18
 Frise

@vanguard said:
We already had a drag heavy meta

You mean when everybody was chamber botting so everyone just did subtle drags to avoid chambers?

Well ye that was shit but that was the fault of the chambers.

All these complex side-drags are fairly clear when on the receiving end once you know that they exist and how they work, it's just a matter of recognizing them as proper mechanics and explaining them to new players. If you're a new player in TF2 and you don't know what rocket jumping is, of course you're going to think "what the fuck that guy is cheating" when you see a soldier flying at 200km/h and oneshotting you with a shovel.

With match-making though, noobs aren't gonna see a lot of this at all, because it takes a huge amount of practice to pull these drags off, so they realistically will only experience them commonly once they've climbed through the ranks and are ready to learn the intricacies of the combat. Meanwhile, if feints are this powerful, any person with 20 hours in the game can do an attack that takes hundreds of hours of practice to read properly.

"But Frisé, noobs will encounter good players in frontline, and they will see wessex there and they will get angery!" It's gonna be very unlikely in a 64 players game mode, and even when it rarely happens, it's unlikely that a noob will think much of it. They're not visually shocking like reverse hits in Chivalry were to newcomers. They will just think "wtf I parried that" and move on.

Even if these drags end up becoming a huge issue, you can just nerf them by adding turncap or adjusting release animations to curve towards a horizontal strike again. You can still have sidestabs and morphs to bypass direction.

52 40

@TheShade said:

@vanguard said:
We already had a drag heavy meta, and it played pretty shitty tbh, to the point I was having more fun with chivalry than with this game.

Drag meta is full of retarded manuevers that are shit to defend against tbh, the game feels inconsistent and exploity.

Feints are much more clear, you Know why u got hit. Drags can be one or 3 other different things that you/your opponent did that resulted in a hit, some of these things have no intuitive way to deal with.

Accels and delays are also clear. Waterfall, frisedrag, footdrags, these aren't clear.

I think it's really poor design to have things like this. Think on quake, it is a consistent game with consistent mechanics. Easy to understand what is going on.

I legit don't get why a drag meta would be so much better and skillful.

The problem with Chivalry was the exploits it had. Why would you go back to Chivalry if you are tired of drags in mordhau? Chivalry's drags are a lot worse to read lol.

Drag meta matters because it actually takes skill to use.

I'll admit that this thread is changing my views on feinting and drags. Feints still take skill to use, however. If you feint a stab, it is almost certain that a skilled player will punish it with a chamber. Let me give an example.

Lets say you stab, morph to undercut, and then feint.

A noob will block at your morph, and depending on your skill level you can either F it up and feint the morph, or just let the morph hit after their block.

A player slightly more skilled will attempt to chamber the stab. Depending on your skill, if you follow through with the morph instead of feinting, you'll get the hit on them. This is further split up depending on whether you need to accelerate it to ensure their chamber attempt doesn't hit before your undercut, or perhaps slow it down if you have a fast weapon, to ensure you don't hit into their parry.

A relatively skilled player will attempt to chamber the stab, then they might just push it and gamble they'll hit first, or feint to parry.

Truly skilled players will either not parry until the real attack hits, whatever it be. If they have a fast weapon, they'll chamber and push through it to punish your morph. Or they'll do the stab-chamber and then aim at your weapon to cause a clash. Or they'll follow through with the morph by morphing their stab, and punish your feint. The highest level players would not react until your final attack. Or they might decide to be aggressive. Or they'll do nothing, but then when they see you feint they'll punish it with an accelerated attack.

This was a bit extreme of a comment, but my point is that incorporating feints into fights does require skill. Against skilled players, feints can be a double-edged sword.

Personally, I think a solid way to improve feints would be to increase the time to feint to parry, but allow feint to attack to be a bit quicker.

Conscript 4564 6302
  • 1
  • 11 Sep '18
 vanguard

@Frise said:

@vanguard said:
We already had a drag heavy meta

You mean when everybody was chamber botting so everyone just did subtle drags to avoid chambers?

Well ye that was shit but that was the fault of the chambers.

But now everybody is "parry botting", with a drag heavy meta it will happen the same, people will drag all the time because if you don't you are objectively playing wrong.

All these complex side-drags are fairly clear when on the receiving end once you know that they exist and how they work, it's just a matter of recognizing them as proper mechanics and explaining them to new players. If you're a new player in TF2 and you don't know what rocket jumping is, of course you're going to think "what the fuck that guy is cheating" when you see a soldier flying at 200km/h and oneshotting you with a shovel.

Yeah fair point but think about it, I have 2800h in chiv and almost 400 in this game and these drags still look fucked up when they land on you. I know what was that hitted me, but I don't know any realiable way to deffend against it feels more like I'm having to wait for you to comit a mistake making these drags, than me activelly disarming them.

With feints, I can read them and in a healthy gameplay situation, I would be able to punish it. My problem with feints is more related to weapon balancing than feints themselves.

With match-making though, noobs aren't gonna see a lot of this at all, because it takes a huge amount of practice to pull these drags off, so they realistically will only experience them commonly once they've climbed through the ranks and are ready to learn the intricacies of the combat. Meanwhile, if feints are this powerful, any person with 20 hours in the game can do an attack that takes hundreds of hours of practice to read properly.

I'm not even bothering wiht noobs here tbh, my point is that these drag heavy metas play bad in high level. I think it makes sense that the best noobs will be the ones who wait to parry instead of panicking all around. Remember that noobs fucking spam everything, this game kinda rewards that via FHF and chambers too in a low level fight. For a noob, it will be a fucking nightmare to feint another noob lol.

Even if these drags end up becoming a huge issue, you can just nerf them by adding turncap or adjusting release animations to curve towards a horizontal strike again. You can still have sidestabs and morphs to bypass direction.

Yeah I'm all for sidestabs and morphs bypassing direction. I'm against fucking subtle drags, these shit on the gameplay imho. Footdrags that looks like a accel etc, these things are cancer man. I understand they add dynamic and skill etc, but they are so fucking cancerous to deal with, it isn't fun. I mean yeah, it is fun to execute these manuevers, but to be on the recieving end? Fucking bulllshit I say. If we were to have these things, then the game must be slower overall. Releases, windups etc, everything slower so it gets readable, otherwise I'm full against it.

Conscript 4564 6302
  • 11 Sep '18
 vanguard

@TheShade said:

@vanguard said:
We already had a drag heavy meta, and it played pretty shitty tbh, to the point I was having more fun with chivalry than with this game.

Drag meta is full of retarded manuevers that are shit to defend against tbh, the game feels inconsistent and exploity.

Feints are much more clear, you Know why u got hit. Drags can be one or 3 other different things that you/your opponent did that resulted in a hit, some of these things have no intuitive way to deal with.

Accels and delays are also clear. Waterfall, frisedrag, footdrags, these aren't clear.

I think it's really poor design to have things like this. Think on quake, it is a consistent game with consistent mechanics. Easy to understand what is going on.

I legit don't get why a drag meta would be so much better and skillful.

The problem with Chivalry was the exploits it had. Why would you go back to Chivalry if you are tired of drags in mordhau? Chivalry's drags are a lot worse to read lol.

Well no lol, with patch 16 drags were WAY more readable in chiv then in Mordhau tbh. Although they did look worse, the point is that you could read it.

Drag meta matters because it actually takes skill to use.

And so does feints, think when you were a noob, did feints made you win against veterans? No, feints probably fucked you up even more. I get fucked all the time trying to feint here in this game, which means it isn't "press buton to win".

Knight 1269 3811
  • 11 Sep '18
 Frise

@vanguard said:
But now everybody is "parry botting", with a drag heavy meta it will happen the same, people will drag all the time because if you don't you are objectively playing wrong.

The difference is that to bypass a parry with a delay, you have to make a big drag, and bait them to parry early by acceling them regularly. This is where interaction comes into play. When people chamber botted, any braindead slight drag go you a free hit.

but I don't know any realiable way to deffend against it feels more like I'm having to wait for you to comit a mistake making these drags, than me activelly disarming them.

They're incredibly punishable though, if you already parried and you see the wessex coming you can run into it and most times it will force a miss; Those drags are impossible to do if you run towards it. If you follow the weapon with your camera, it's possible to track it and parry it accordingly, when I went to Miami I played with rob owner and naeleus, who both use a lot of waterfalls, and I found it completely possible to simply parry these drags. If you do parry it, the riposte is extremely hard to see coming, because of where you end up looking after doing these drags. Even worse if you get chambered. Plus, if you see it and run into it to force a miss, it's basically a free hit. This is what makes it so interesting, the multiple ways to interact with it, instead of just having to either read it or preemptively chamber.

With feints, I can read them and in a healthy gameplay situation, I would be able to punish it. My problem with feints is more related to weapon balancing than feints themselves.

Stabs are impossible to read reliably, they're borderline Chiv-tier. The only thing that keeps them from being full retarded are chambers, but that just makes it a boring mess of "chamber stabs or be forced to read ridiculous feints and morphs". And stabs are useless aside from feinting right now.

Yeah I'm all for sidestabs and morphs bypassing direction. I'm against fucking subtle drags, these shit on the gameplay imho. Footdrags that looks like a accel etc, these things are cancer man. I understand they add dynamic and skill etc, but they are so fucking cancerous to deal with, it isn't fun. I mean yeah, it is fun to execute these manuevers, but to be on the recieving end? Fucking bulllshit I say.

I have to just disagree here; Playing in NA against Naeleus was thrilling, he just played with overheads but had incredible aim, and I had to constatly keep his weapon in the middle of my screen or he would hit me on the foot, head, or the other side with a waterfall. Even when defending, I was constantly doing something. (This was in patch 16 when parries had a reasonable size). Whenever I receive a wessex or waterfall here in SA, I just get a feeling of getting outplayed, because I know that it's not an easy thing to do. Instead when you get feinted, the other dude just pressed a button and you failed to defend against a very powerful attack.

Knight 941 2569
  • 11 Sep '18
 Pred

@vanguard said:
We already had a drag heavy meta, and it played pretty shitty tbh

We had a delay heavy meta to be specific and that was because of the chambers.

Misdirection plays should be emphasized, because if they kill you, you know you got tricked the fuck out and get angry at yourself and not the game. Also post-chamber gameplay should be opened up so the initial one doesn't lead to more easy chambers. Then feints as just another tool. Currently we have feint game, with some additional mechanics sprinkled on top of them, in the essence just further enhancing the base which is feints (morph feint, chamber morph feint and combo headslam feint - 3 most efficient plays in the game, amirite?).

52 40
  • 11 Sep '18
 PhillyCheesesteak

@Frise said:
I have to just disagree here; Playing in NA against Naeleus was thrilling, he just played with overheads but had incredible aim, and I had to constatly keep his weapon in the middle of my screen or he would hit me on the foot, head, or the other side with a waterfall. Even when defending, I was constantly doing something. (This was in patch 16 when parries had a reasonable size). Whenever I receive a wessex or waterfall here in SA, I just get a feeling of getting outplayed, because I know that it's not an easy thing to do. Instead when you get feinted, the other dude just pressed a button and you failed to defend against a very powerful attack.

If SA means South America, then the reason feints are hard to read should be pretty obvious - your ping.

Conscript 4564 6302
  • 5
  • 11 Sep '18
 vanguard

@Frise said:

@vanguard said:
But now everybody is "parry botting", with a drag heavy meta it will happen the same, people will drag all the time because if you don't you are objectively playing wrong.

The difference is that to bypass a parry with a delay, you have to make a big drag, and bait them to parry early by acceling them regularly. This is where interaction comes into play. When people chamber botted, any braindead slight drag go you a free hit.

Yeah, I like telegraphed delays and accel drags, I think they are healthy for the combat. But, the point was towards making it more directional and shit. The more directional the parrying is, the easier it is to make subtle shit connect, and subtle shit makes the game dumb imho, as it adds to much randomness in defense and its opressive beyond imagination, every riposte is a fuck, it takes alway incentive to do crazy footwork manuever because you can't run around like a retard if you have to keep reading each mouse movement your opponent makes.

but I don't know any realiable way to deffend against it feels more like I'm having to wait for you to comit a mistake making these drags, than me activelly disarming them.

They're incredibly punishable though, if you already parried and you see the wessex coming you can run into it and most times it will force a miss; Those drags are impossible to do if you run towards it. If you follow the weapon with your camera, it's possible to track it and parry it accordingly, when I went to Miami I played with rob owner and naeleus, who both use a lot of waterfalls, and I found it completely possible to simply parry these drags.

Yeah it is possible to parry these drags, but they are absolutely unintuitive. Every attack in this game requires that you more or less look at the direction the attack is coming, right. These attacks break this rule completely, instead of having to turn a bit to where the atack is coming from, you gotta center your screen on it and pray a lot. Honestly, against you I think I manage to parry/avoid this bullshit via footwork mostly lmao. The pojt is, it is unintuitive and looks exploity as fuck.

You know, as I said they do add skill to the game, same way backswings did to chivalry. But I don't find them fun atm, or better yet well fleshed out. They still look and feel exploity here.

It is that thing we were talking about, these drags are the sort of thing you won't see in any promotional video of this game, or any video that tries to convince people to join us in any form.

What I'm trying to say man is that drags are fun and skillful, but they are also frustrating and exploity.

Think about it, people hate feints because they are sort of a cheap deception right, drags are a very elaborate one. Some drags are way too elaborated way of decieving. You get what I mean? Like, you can expect a feint. You can read a feint by reading the situation you are in + your opponent, you don't rely 100% on reading the animation. These drags, any overhead can be one waterfall, any horizontal cut could be a wessex. You see, they are a very elaborate shit to deal with that can happen all the fucking time and you can't tell, I find annoying idk

Its like backswings man, any slash could be either a fucking delay of doom or a retarded backswing, same with overheads.

And like backswing, yeah, they are fun, but they have this very annoying aspect in it

Stabs are impossible to read reliably, they're borderline Chiv-tier. The only thing that keeps them from being full retarded are chambers, but that just makes it a boring mess of "chamber stabs or be forced to read ridiculous feints and morphs". And stabs are useless aside from feinting right now.

This true tbh stabs a fucko, too fast

Yeah I'm all for sidestabs and morphs bypassing direction. I'm against fucking subtle drags, these shit on the gameplay imho. Footdrags that looks like a accel etc, these things are cancer man. I understand they add dynamic and skill etc, but they are so fucking cancerous to deal with, it isn't fun. I mean yeah, it is fun to execute these manuevers, but to be on the recieving end? Fucking bulllshit I say.

I have to just disagree here; Playing in NA against Naeleus was thrilling, he just played with overheads but had incredible aim, and I had to constatly keep his weapon in the middle of my screen or he would hit me on the foot, head, or the other side with a waterfall. Even when defending, I was constantly doing something. (This was in patch 16 when parries had a reasonable size). Whenever I receive a wessex or waterfall here in SA, I just get a feeling of getting outplayed, because I know that it's not an easy thing to do. Instead when you get feinted, the other dude just pressed a button and you failed to defend against a very powerful attack.

I ended up answering this in the wall of text above I think. But as I was saying, for me it feels kinda like backswings in chiv.

This is why I don't really mind a shift towards feints, I find them better idk I like it more than to have to read a attack that looks like X, but it is actually Y

Knight 1269 3811
  • 11 Sep '18
 Frise

@PhillyCheesesteak said:
If SA means South America, then the reason feints are hard to read should be pretty obvious - your ping.

You're not the smartest tool in the shed are ya

Conscript 4564 6302
  • 3
  • 11 Sep '18
 vanguard

What if the edge of the sword, curved with the tracers? You know, imagine a wessex for example, you slash kinda above your opponent and then drop the attack on his shoulder/back, right?

What if the horizontal attack turned into a "overhead" depending on how you drag it? Woudn't that make it more readable/looking better? Specially in the case of waterfalls. You know, the edge of the weapon kinda follows where the tracers are going

1430 2175

I can't keep up with most of this thread but I at least read through everyone's long posts on the first and last pages.

My problem with feints/drags is that a guy waves his sword around, twists his body around or head bangs to lure me into parrying and once I parry a perceived attack my sword falls from the sky just so he can hit me. Kind've pathetic. Yeah I should git gud but I'd also like to see them use deceptions that were less cheesy/formulaic and more intuitive/inventive.

I like shields in patch 16 cause they turn dragging/feints/morphs etc into something that took IQ. If parry box was a little smaller or at least thinner then we would see drags that look better and make more sense. Right now I'm certain I hit peoples sides and I then eat their riposte anyways. I want to see these next patches experiment with gradually decreasing parry size to find a balance.

We're not proposing anything crazy here, I think parry sizes somewhat smaller than Chivalry's would be ideal. Side hits felt so satisfying and made sense to defend against. This should be the staple of our gameplay.

I'm not sure anything can be directly done about feints being powerful besides shortening their window, increasing stamina cost and/or making chambers cost less stamina.

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  • 1
  • 12 Sep '18
 TheShade

@vanguard said:

@TheShade said:

@vanguard said:
We already had a drag heavy meta, and it played pretty shitty tbh, to the point I was having more fun with chivalry than with this game.

Drag meta is full of retarded manuevers that are shit to defend against tbh, the game feels inconsistent and exploity.

Feints are much more clear, you Know why u got hit. Drags can be one or 3 other different things that you/your opponent did that resulted in a hit, some of these things have no intuitive way to deal with.

Accels and delays are also clear. Waterfall, frisedrag, footdrags, these aren't clear.

I think it's really poor design to have things like this. Think on quake, it is a consistent game with consistent mechanics. Easy to understand what is going on.

I legit don't get why a drag meta would be so much better and skillful.

The problem with Chivalry was the exploits it had. Why would you go back to Chivalry if you are tired of drags in mordhau? Chivalry's drags are a lot worse to read lol.

Well no lol, with patch 16 drags were WAY more readable in chiv then in Mordhau tbh. Although they did look worse, the point is that you could read it.

Drag meta matters because it actually takes skill to use.

And so does feints, think when you were a noob, did feints made you win against veterans? No, feints probably fucked you up even more. I get fucked all the time trying to feint here in this game, which means it isn't "press buton to win".

Drags in patch 16 was a lot easier to parry than in 17. I guess you mean that drags were bad back then because they were a lot harder to chamber.

Knight 292 904
  • 1
  • 12 Sep '18
 GIRUGIRU

There's a lot of overcomplication and overthinking in this thread.

  • Don't compare Chivalry feints to Mordhau

  • Defence is far easier in Mordhau

  • Feints will never be consistently punishable 100% of the time, there are alot of dynamic variables. Knowing when to punish or not is a skill. It's simply just not a mathematical possibility to have consistently punishable feints in all scenarios

  • Swing manipulation does not look good to outsiders 90% of the time. This is a fact. Forget how fun it is to execute, it's simply a fact that normies do not comprehend swing manipulation and it looks bad from outside

  • Feints and clear cut accels look healthier than swing manipulation meta

  • Feints are easy to execute, but take skill to deal with. That lowers skill floor and keeps high skill ceiling (that's healthy for the game)

  • Feints are easy to balance with several variables (feint recovery, feint window, windup time, chambers etc.) In comparison to swing manipulation which will forever favour high release time weapons

  • Feint read is visually impressive

  • Feint heavy meta promotes an aggressive and initiative-seeking meta. This creates for exciting spectatorship. Currently I find myself allowing people to attack me so I can chamber to be offensive. This is not healthy - look at For Honor's high level gameplay

Knight 93 270
  • 12 Sep '18
 Nikosawa

@GIRUGIRU said:
There's a lot of overcomplication and overthinking in this thread.

  • Don't compare Chivalry feints to Mordhau

  • Defence is far easier in Mordhau

  • Feints will never be consistently punishable 100% of the time, there are alot of dynamic variables. Knowing when to punish or not is a skill. It's simply just not a mathematical possibility to have consistently punishable feints in all scenarios

  • Swing manipulation does not look good to outsiders 90% of the time. This is a fact. Forget how fun it is to execute, it's simply a fact that normies do not comprehend swing manipulation and it looks bad from outside

  • Feints and clear cut accels look healthier than swing manipulation meta

  • Feints are easy to execute, but take skill to deal with. That lowers skill floor and keeps high skill ceiling (that's healthy for the game)

  • Feints are easy to balance with several variables (feint recovery, feint window, windup time, chambers etc.) In comparison to swing manipulation which will forever favour high release time weapons

  • Feint read is visually impressive

  • Feint heavy meta promotes an aggressive and initiative-seeking meta. This creates for exciting spectatorship. Currently I find myself allowing people to attack me so I can chamber to be offensive. This is not healthy - look at For Honor's high level gameplay

i agree. but stabs in general seem a little overused this patch.

Knight 292 904
  • 12 Sep '18
 GIRUGIRU

@Nikosawa said:

i agree. but stabs in general seem a little overused this patch.

Yes because the stab chamber window needs reducing, once that's done the whole spam stab after getting your stab chambered becomes redundant

Knight 936 952
  • 12 Sep '18
 afiNity

I think drag meta as it was played in Chivalry until mid of 2013 was fine. After that people started to use reverse ohs and shit. If Mordhau would basically use that old Chivalry meta and prevent everything that goes further than that, then the game would be more fun imo.
Maybe feints look more comprehensible for outsiders than drags, but this reaction-based combat that Mordhau is going for isn't really fun and feels limiting.

80 201
  • 12 Sep '18
 Seseau

Do you really believe this game has any spectatorship potential whatsoever?

Duchess 806 3550
  • 12 Sep '18
 Stouty

Shade go read chivs steam reviews and ctfl f "drag", then tell me again how chiv grew because of them lol

frise you're absolutely out of your mind if you think you can justify waterfalls to noobs or even other comp players. First of all they're practically a gamble because the amount of masturbation of your mouse required to pull it off will often result in a miss. Secondly they reek off exploitation "just drag your mouse round my parry box so even if im parrying whilst facing the wep you still hit me brah". Why would anyone want this jank carried over from chiv

Knight 1269 3811
  • 12 Sep '18
 Frise

@GIRUGIRU said:

  • Don't compare Chivalry feints to Mordhau

Stab feints are near Chiv level in regards to readability though, I find bastard sword stab feints as unreadable as SoW feints.

  • Swing manipulation does not look good to outsiders 90% of the time. This is a fact. Forget how fun it is to execute, it's simply a fact that normies do not comprehend swing manipulation and it looks bad from outside

No, that's not a fact. You can't claim it is a fact because it's not an objective truth. Swing manipulation is a vague term in this scenario anyway. Of course they don't comprehend it if it's not explained anywhere as an actual mechanic. You can't possibly argue that sidestabs look bad to outsiders, they're the most natural fucking thing. As for the more complex side drags, if parry was less lenient, you could adjust turncaps and/or release animations to make these drags less extreme in execution while still being viable. Like hitting your other shoulder during an overhead to bypass your parry.

  • Feints and clear cut accels look healthier than swing manipulation meta

Gotta love those fake-accel feint headbutts.

  • Feints are easy to execute, but take skill to deal with. That lowers skill floor and keeps high skill ceiling (that's healthy for the game)

That's the complete opposite of healthy, are you out of your mind man? A mechanic that a player with 10 hours can use, being the most difficult thing to deal with in every skill level? Literally how is that healthy for the game? "Oh u wanna improve your offense nah man don't bother just keep doing the one thing u learned during ur first 10 hours of the game, it works against everyone" That's backwards game design.

  • Feints are easy to balance with several variables (feint recovery, feint window, windup time, chambers etc.) In comparison to swing manipulation which will forever favour high release time weapons

You're only thinking about delays.

  • Feint read is visually impressive

To us chiv nerds, sure. To outsiders it just looks like a dude wiggling his sword around and the other dude doing nothing.

  • Feint heavy meta promotes an aggressive and initiative-seeking meta. This creates for exciting spectatorship. Currently I find myself allowing people to attack me so I can chamber to be offensive. This is not healthy - look at For Honor's high level gameplay

@Stouty said:
First of all they're practically a gamble because the amount of masturbation of your mouse required to pull it off will often result in a miss

You don't need to do any complicated shit though, they don't work like in chiv. Even then, if the parrybox wasn't autistically huge, you could bypass a parry by hitting someone on the shoulder instead of having to go all the way to the back. So you wouldn't need such a big drag. But because of how huge the parrybox is, the only way to get away with sidedrags now is to exaggerate them.

Secondly they reek off exploitation "just drag your mouse round my parry box so even if im parrying whilst facing the wep you still hit me brah"

"You can redirect your attack mid-air to change where you hit the opponent" is in no way a weird concept. It makes complete sense. Any negative connotation drags have is a result from Chivalry's bad implementation. Whenever I explain to someone who doesn't know about Mordhau or Chivalry, that you can do all these hard to execute attacks with just a basic click, it gets a good reaction. Because it's a fucking dope mechanic. The issue is when it is seen as an exploit, and that's the fault of the game for not explaining and embracing them.

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  • 12 Sep '18
 PhillyCheesesteak

@Frise said:

@PhillyCheesesteak said:
If SA means South America, then the reason feints are hard to read should be pretty obvious - your ping.

You're not the smartest tool in the shed are ya

I hear ad hominem is a solid argument and not a logical fallacy.