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Does Mordhau Really Need Feints as the Main Aspect of Combat?

52 40

@Jax said:
Feints are still kinda risky right now due to the easier chamber, but we need to adjust some mechanics, ie chamber morph matching being too easy/existing etc.

Morphing to match an opponent's morph is probably the least controversially skillful mechanic right now. Plenty of arguments about chambers but morphing to match their morph is awesome.

Knight 1269 3811
  • 9 Sep '18
 Frise

@PhillyCheesesteak said:
Morphing to match an opponent's morph is probably the least controversially skillful mechanic right now. Plenty of arguments about chambers but morphing to match their morph is awesome.

Chamber morphing is braindead easy and allows you to chamber attacks without having to read the morph. It's the opposite of skillful, it's a crutch.

52 40

@Frise said:

@PhillyCheesesteak said:
Morphing to match an opponent's morph is probably the least controversially skillful mechanic right now. Plenty of arguments about chambers but morphing to match their morph is awesome.

Chamber morphing is braindead easy and allows you to chamber attacks without having to read the morph. It's the opposite of skillful, it's a crutch.

Most morphs are away from a stab. To chamber morph such a morph, it means you need to correctly chamber the side of the stab, which is even harder now that all the stabs are so quick. It doesn't mean you don't need to read the morph. It means you were already planning on chambering their stab (likely so you can change the tempo of the fight a bit with a quicker than normal counterattack), and they morphed.

Admittedly, though, chambering in this patch is pretty easy. But it is a bit costly in regards to stamina, which if argue balances it out. If it is braindead easy but costs 20 stamina, I would say it is balanced.

Knight 1269 3811
  • 10 Sep '18
 Frise

@PhillyCheesesteak said:
Most morphs are away from a stab. To chamber morph such a morph, it means you need to correctly chamber the side of the stab

Yes. Everybody does this. It's braindead easy. You're the same guy that said feints are weak and only work on bad players. You clearly don't have a good understanding of how the game plays out at high levels.

Duke 5562 13285
  • 10 Sep '18
 Jax — Community Manager

Morph matching was skillful when the timing window on it was miniscule (since chambers had tiny windows) - now that the window has been opened up it's way too easy to match attacks. I think the current plan is to remove it for #18 and if needed we can add it back in but heavily nerfed.

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  • 1
  • 10 Sep '18
 JasonBourne

@Jax said:
Morph matching was skillful when the timing window on it was miniscule (since chambers had tiny windows) - now that the window has been opened up it's way too easy to match attacks. I think the current plan is to remove it for #18 and if needed we can add it back in but heavily nerfed.

Yea I think it'll be worth testing out, and this will give us more variation. Chambers counter feints, and morph could counter chambers (those gamble chambers) which will higher skillcap (in theory).

Maybe add a role in 1vsx to chambers too.

Knight 941 2569
  • 10 Sep '18
 Pred

@Jax said:
Morph matching was skillful when the timing window on it was miniscule (since chambers had tiny windows) - now that the window has been opened up it's way too easy to match attacks. I think the current plan is to remove it for #18 and if needed we can add it back in but heavily nerfed.

Matching morphs being slightly too easy is at best 84th biggest problem of combat now.

In fact, they should be the designated "skillful" tactic of active defense - you chamber, so you had to match attack and direction, morph should every time beat your chamber so now you have to morph too, given you chose the right side if the first attack was a stab - instead everyone spams gamble to FTP. With how super late you can FTP + parry duration + footwork to force the parry to connect + protruding parry box = gamble to FTP protects you through all time AND space, adding to the feint meta as morph delay in this situation will only work a fraction of times that a morph feint will. Choose the right weapon and your initial gamble chamber will beat morphs too.

95 102
  • 11 Sep '18
 TheShade

@GIRUGIRU said:
Feints are much healthier than swing manipulation as the main offensive tool in terms of visuals; it's easy to forget what the game looks like to outsiders and constant drag/accel spam does not look good in comparison to morphs + feints. This also makes things like riposte anims a less determining factor of what makes a weapon powerful

Mordhau has proper netcode and the existence of chambers, this means that feints can be balanced through mechanics and value tweaks - just because feints are very powerful dosen't mean the game becomes a 50/50. A player that can read will consistently beat a gambler

I strongly disagre with feints being healthier. Feinting in Chivalrys public servers was tabuu and strongly hated by the community, while any sort of swing manipulation was accepted (except for reverses). It was easy to see that outsiders from the competitive scene did not like the idea of there being an overpowred move like feints that barely took any skill at all to use. The game is being balanced around high skilled players right now and you are seemed as one of the best players currently, so ofcourse feints are not 50/50 for you but they will be for a lot of newcomers.

If feints are going to become as strong as they were in Chivalry the community will once again "ban" them from being used in public servers. It will become stale and boring to play since Mordhau does not focus that much on freedom/different ways to play. Feinting in Chivalry was so overpowered for the casual player that using it would be like cheating in a way so people just stopped feinting instead and came to a mutual understanding that feints did not fit in a place with pubbers. Just press a button and you win.

Knight 941 2569
  • 11 Sep '18
 Pred

@TheShade said:

@GIRUGIRU said:
Feints are much healthier than swing manipulation as the main offensive tool in terms of visuals; it's easy to forget what the game looks like to outsiders and constant drag/accel spam does not look good in comparison to morphs + feints. This also makes things like riposte anims a less determining factor of what makes a weapon powerful

Mordhau has proper netcode and the existence of chambers, this means that feints can be balanced through mechanics and value tweaks - just because feints are very powerful dosen't mean the game becomes a 50/50. A player that can read will consistently beat a gambler

I strongly disagre with feints being healthier. Feinting in Chivalrys public servers was tabuu and strongly hated by the community, while any sort of swing manipulation was accepted (except for reverses). It was easy to see that outsiders from the competitive scene did not like the idea of there being an overpowred move like feints that barely took any skill at all to use. The game is being balanced around high skilled players right now and you are seemed as one of the best players currently, so ofcourse feints are not 50/50 for you but they will be for a lot of newcomers.

If feints are going to become as strong as they were in Chivalry the community will once again "ban" them from being used in public servers. It will become stale and boring to play since Mordhau does not focus that much on freedom/different ways to play. Feinting in Chivalry was so overpowered for the casual player that using it would be like cheating in a way so people just stopped feinting instead and came to a mutual understanding that feints did not fit in a place with pubbers. Just press a button and you win.

Yeah, I would also add that if The Git Gud Path in the game leads to something as boring as feint-based game, people just won't be interested in gittin gud.

  • Guise, I wanna be le badass deadly knight, what do?

  • Play few hundred hours so you acquire the crucial skill of sometimes not pressing parry when people attack you

Duchess 806 3550
  • 11 Sep '18
 Stouty

Timing based parries is the foundation of this genre, you could simplify any game like this "oh just play csgo for 500 hours and shoot enemy before he shoot you". Are you trying to say you don't find someone reading 5 feints in a row impressive? And reading is only half the story, the barrier after is punishing

Knight 941 2569
  • 11 Sep '18
 Pred

@Stouty said:
Timing based parries is the foundation of this genre, you could simplify any game like this "oh just play csgo for 500 hours and shoot enemy before he shoot you". Are you trying to say you don't find someone reading 5 feints in a row impressive?

Do I find it impressive? Or would most of the playerbase find it impressive? If a guy reads 5 feints in a row, it probably means that the other guy is slamming his head at the ground 5 times in a row doing the convincing - feints replaced drags in all this fights look like fights stuff, you have to be a good contortionist to have them sweet feints.

I find gameplay that is too heavy on feints boring (like the case with patch 17) and I would most likely not have much motivation to invest too much time into gitting gud if the current meta was to stay. Still, I probably do have much more dedication to this game than an average buyer will have, which is why I don't think feint meta is going to appeal to the general population, which in great majority hated feints in Chiv.

@Stouty said:
And reading is only half the story, the barrier after is punishing

Yeah, we can definitely revisit this discussion when punishing is actually reliable.

Knight 1269 3811
  • 11 Sep '18
 Frise

@Stouty said:
you could simplify any game like this "oh just play csgo for 500 hours and shoot enemy before he shoot you".

No, it's more like "oh u wanna get good at cs? ye don't bother with that headshot stuff just grab p90 and run around because it's the most effective strategy"

Duchess 806 3550
  • 11 Sep '18
 Stouty

Dragging to get round a parry was always an unintended exploit, quotes from TB prove this. Feinting was the core game mechanic to get past parries and should remain so (not that drags are even underpowered right now)

95 102
  • 11 Sep '18
 TheShade

@Stouty said:
Dragging to get round a parry was always an unintended exploit, quotes from TB prove this. Feinting was the core game mechanic to get past parries and should remain so (not that drags are even underpowered right now)

TB didn't know themselves what was healty for the community. They don't really have a good track record for being good developers. It was obviously not feints that made the community grow, which apparently they wanted it to be. Just because the game creator says that "this" is the way to play does not mean it is any good.

52 40

@TheShade said:

@GIRUGIRU said:
Feints are much healthier than swing manipulation as the main offensive tool in terms of visuals; it's easy to forget what the game looks like to outsiders and constant drag/accel spam does not look good in comparison to morphs + feints. This also makes things like riposte anims a less determining factor of what makes a weapon powerful

Mordhau has proper netcode and the existence of chambers, this means that feints can be balanced through mechanics and value tweaks - just because feints are very powerful dosen't mean the game becomes a 50/50. A player that can read will consistently beat a gambler

I strongly disagre with feints being healthier. Feinting in Chivalrys public servers was tabuu and strongly hated by the community, while any sort of swing manipulation was accepted (except for reverses). It was easy to see that outsiders from the competitive scene did not like the idea of there being an overpowred move like feints that barely took any skill at all to use. The game is being balanced around high skilled players right now and you are seemed as one of the best players currently, so ofcourse feints are not 50/50 for you but they will be for a lot of newcomers.

If feints are going to become as strong as they were in Chivalry the community will once again "ban" them from being used in public servers. It will become stale and boring to play since Mordhau does not focus that much on freedom/different ways to play. Feinting in Chivalry was so overpowered for the casual player that using it would be like cheating in a way so people just stopped feinting instead and came to a mutual understanding that feints did not fit in a place with pubbers. Just press a button and you win.

I'm going to guess you aren't in the alpha right now. Feints actually have a counter in this game - that you isn't a ridiculously accelerated attack.

95 102
  • 11 Sep '18
 TheShade

@PhillyCheesesteak said:

@TheShade said:

@GIRUGIRU said:
Feints are much healthier than swing manipulation as the main offensive tool in terms of visuals; it's easy to forget what the game looks like to outsiders and constant drag/accel spam does not look good in comparison to morphs + feints. This also makes things like riposte anims a less determining factor of what makes a weapon powerful

Mordhau has proper netcode and the existence of chambers, this means that feints can be balanced through mechanics and value tweaks - just because feints are very powerful dosen't mean the game becomes a 50/50. A player that can read will consistently beat a gambler

I strongly disagre with feints being healthier. Feinting in Chivalrys public servers was tabuu and strongly hated by the community, while any sort of swing manipulation was accepted (except for reverses). It was easy to see that outsiders from the competitive scene did not like the idea of there being an overpowred move like feints that barely took any skill at all to use. The game is being balanced around high skilled players right now and you are seemed as one of the best players currently, so ofcourse feints are not 50/50 for you but they will be for a lot of newcomers.

If feints are going to become as strong as they were in Chivalry the community will once again "ban" them from being used in public servers. It will become stale and boring to play since Mordhau does not focus that much on freedom/different ways to play. Feinting in Chivalry was so overpowered for the casual player that using it would be like cheating in a way so people just stopped feinting instead and came to a mutual understanding that feints did not fit in a place with pubbers. Just press a button and you win.

I'm going to guess you aren't in the alpha right now. Feints actually have a counter in this game - that you aren't a ridiculously accelerated attack.

I am but, but chambers are going to get heavily nerfed next patch.

52 40
  • 11 Sep '18
 PhillyCheesesteak

@TheShade said:

@PhillyCheesesteak said:

@TheShade said:

@GIRUGIRU said:
Feints are much healthier than swing manipulation as the main offensive tool in terms of visuals; it's easy to forget what the game looks like to outsiders and constant drag/accel spam does not look good in comparison to morphs + feints. This also makes things like riposte anims a less determining factor of what makes a weapon powerful

Mordhau has proper netcode and the existence of chambers, this means that feints can be balanced through mechanics and value tweaks - just because feints are very powerful dosen't mean the game becomes a 50/50. A player that can read will consistently beat a gambler

I strongly disagre with feints being healthier. Feinting in Chivalrys public servers was tabuu and strongly hated by the community, while any sort of swing manipulation was accepted (except for reverses). It was easy to see that outsiders from the competitive scene did not like the idea of there being an overpowred move like feints that barely took any skill at all to use. The game is being balanced around high skilled players right now and you are seemed as one of the best players currently, so ofcourse feints are not 50/50 for you but they will be for a lot of newcomers.

If feints are going to become as strong as they were in Chivalry the community will once again "ban" them from being used in public servers. It will become stale and boring to play since Mordhau does not focus that much on freedom/different ways to play. Feinting in Chivalry was so overpowered for the casual player that using it would be like cheating in a way so people just stopped feinting instead and came to a mutual understanding that feints did not fit in a place with pubbers. Just press a button and you win.

I'm going to guess you aren't in the alpha right now. Feints actually have a counter in this game - that you aren't a ridiculously accelerated attack.

I am but, but chambers are going to get heavily nerfed next patch.

Oh boy. I'd probably be more optimistic about this if the patches started coming every few weeks or at least 1 a month. We'll see then.

Knight 1269 3811
  • 11 Sep '18
 Frise

@Stouty said:
Dragging to get round a parry was always an unintended exploit, quotes from TB prove this.

How does this matter? TB were terrible developers that stumbled upon a great combat system and failed to make good use of it. Swing manipulation is a great mechanic, Tornbanner just made it shit because they made everything shit. The amount of freedom swing manipulation gives is great, the fact that with just a basic overhead you can do a delay, accel, waterfall, footdrag, and that all of this can be faked and turned into the other in reaction to the opponent is fucking great for a video game. They only feel like exploits to people who don't understand how it works, and that's an issue with the game not being clear about the mechanic.

Add to all that the ability to morph into a different attack and it just multiplies the amount of shit you can do with just 2 basic attacks. It allows freedom, creativity, it gives you something to practice to get constantly better at. It allows for varied playstyles. It's what makes the game special. Feints are a boring mechanic when they're the core of the combat.

If swing manipulation were as bad looking as ya'll are saying (nevermind how retarded people look right now trying to hide feints anyway...), you can restrict it to prevent the bad looking drags, and then make the parry less forgiving in order to allow this same freedom without over the top dragging.

When feints are the single most powerful tool, the game loses all of its depth. Make feints less powerful, just a little bit, so that mindlessly spamming them isn't effective, and you have to use them strategically. Then, since defense will inevitably get easier, make the parrybox less forgiving direction-wise. Skill ceiling remains high, with a more interesting meta. I know it's scary to have to learn a new meta, Stouty, but don't worry, I know you're a good player and will learn to adapt.

Conscript 4564 6302
  • 1
  • 11 Sep '18
 vanguard

We already had a drag heavy meta, and it played pretty shitty tbh, to the point I was having more fun with chivalry than with this game.

Drag meta is full of retarded manuevers that are shit to defend against tbh, the game feels inconsistent and exploity.

Feints are much more clear, you Know why u got hit. Drags can be one or 3 other different things that you/your opponent did that resulted in a hit, some of these things have no intuitive way to deal with.

Accels and delays are also clear. Waterfall, frisedrag, footdrags, these aren't clear.

I think it's really poor design to have things like this. Think on quake, it is a consistent game with consistent mechanics. Easy to understand what is going on.

I legit don't get why a drag meta would be so much better and skillful.

95 102
  • 1
  • 11 Sep '18
 TheShade

@vanguard said:
We already had a drag heavy meta, and it played pretty shitty tbh, to the point I was having more fun with chivalry than with this game.

Drag meta is full of retarded manuevers that are shit to defend against tbh, the game feels inconsistent and exploity.

Feints are much more clear, you Know why u got hit. Drags can be one or 3 other different things that you/your opponent did that resulted in a hit, some of these things have no intuitive way to deal with.

Accels and delays are also clear. Waterfall, frisedrag, footdrags, these aren't clear.

I think it's really poor design to have things like this. Think on quake, it is a consistent game with consistent mechanics. Easy to understand what is going on.

I legit don't get why a drag meta would be so much better and skillful.

The problem with Chivalry was the exploits it had. Why would you go back to Chivalry if you are tired of drags in mordhau? Chivalry's drags are a lot worse to read lol.

Drag meta matters because it actually takes skill to use.