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Does Mordhau Really Need Feints as the Main Aspect of Combat?

Knight 1269 3811
  • 8 Sep '18
 Frise

You basically got it spot on; it's not a skill cap issue, it's a game design/mechanics balance issue.

For the easiest tool to execute to be the most effective and prominent staple of every high level engagement is bad game design, and I think anyone will agree with this statement.

So then why insist on making feints so powerful? They used to be a resource that you had to use strategically, now they're your go to button for getting hits.

Crush insists that making the parrybox smaller will make it harder to parry stuff in 1vX. But that would balance out if feints weren't so braindead powerful.

Having defense be divided more equally amongst timing and direction, and offense requiring skill and rewarding hard to execute attacks is the right way to balance mechanics. No sense in having all the defense skill be feint reading and having all the offense skill be feinting.

1 6
  • 8 Sep '18
 LionGG

My only question is:

Why do I feel like I'm getting punished for chambering instead of feinting?

Duke 5558 13284
  • 8 Sep '18
 Jax — Community Manager

Feints are still kinda risky right now due to the easier chamber, but we need to adjust some mechanics, ie chamber morph matching being too easy/existing etc.

Knight 1269 3811
  • 3
  • 9 Sep '18
 Frise

@Jax said:
Feints are still kinda risky right now due to the easier chamber

Not with any moderately fast or long weapon

Balancing feints through making chambers easier just leads to a messy gamble fest that just looks and feels dumb for everyone involved, anyway. Plus, it just makes 1vX even harder, because the 1 has to spend the few stamina he has in chambering to avoid overpowered feints, and will have to ftp out of the chamber 90% of the times because chambers don't have AP or hyper armour.

And then you can just get flinched like above (you see, I show a GIRU video to avoid any 'git gud' comments)

It's funny, you know, today I was playing and a brazilian asked me how to do that uppercut drag I like so much, and I thought him how to do it, took him like 5 minutes to get it, and then W'olframio said "all that work when you can just press Q". I laughed, but really I felt extremely disappointed in the game during that moment.

Please get Crush to watch this video, I'm not being condescending, it's a very informative video and a lot of parts apply perfectly to feints right now:
https://youtu.be/EitZRLt2G3w?t=21

Keep in mind, nerfing feints does not mean lowering the skill ceiling. The skill ceiling can be raised back up through other, better ways, that also increase the offensive skill ceiling, not just the defensive one. I remember earlier in the alpha when feints were weaker and there were specific times where they were useful, you had to be thoughtful of when to use them, and not just mindlessly use them in every fight. You know there's something wrong with the skill/power balance when the 'top player', GIRU, wins constantly by just spamming feints and basic delay drags.

P90 in CSGO, Pyro in TF2, Teemo in League of Legends. Imagine if these were the most effective strategies in their respective games. That would be bad game design, wouldn't it.

80 286
  • 9 Sep '18
 wizardish

That clip is a morph, not a feint. I don't blame you though, it visually looks like a feint.

Knight 1269 3811
  • 9 Sep '18
 Frise

@wizardish said:
That clip is a morph, not a feint. I don't blame you though, it visually looks like a feint.

Huh, I could have sworn looking at it in slomo through VEGAS it looked like he went back to idle. Oh well. I think we all know that feint lockout is short enough that this happens sometimes when you go for a chamber.

Knight 292 904
  • 9 Sep '18
 GIRUGIRU

Feints are much healthier than swing manipulation as the main offensive tool in terms of visuals; it's easy to forget what the game looks like to outsiders and constant drag/accel spam does not look good in comparison to morphs + feints. This also makes things like riposte anims a less determining factor of what makes a weapon powerful

Mordhau has proper netcode and the existence of chambers, this means that feints can be balanced through mechanics and value tweaks - just because feints are very powerful dosen't mean the game becomes a 50/50. A player that can read will consistently beat a gambler

Knight 1269 3811
  • 1
  • 9 Sep '18
 Frise

@GIRUGIRU said:
Feints are much healthier than swing manipulation as the main offensive tool in terms of visuals

You are delusional. Any new player can instantly understand the concept of getting sidestabbed or shoulder dragged. These are the harder things to do and aren't rewarded. People fake acceling while feinting and twirling around looks retarded, people are constantly trying to hide feints by spastically looking up and down.

constant drag/accel spam does not look good in comparison to morphs + feints.

I wonder if making direction baits more viable would reduce the amount of delay/accel spam... Hmm...

just because feints are very powerful dosen't mean the game becomes a 50/50

No, it just means it rewards an easier move much more than harder to execute moves. It's just backwards game design. You should be encouraged to and rewarded by learning new moves and being creative. But right now it's just not worth it when feints and delays are miles more effective and less risky than everything else. I'm not saying delays should be less powerful though. The game shouldn't reward braindead offense so much. You should have to use feints more strategically. And of course, then you can make parrying harder direction-wise or give us more offensive tools. A simple 100ms nerf to feints and fixing the transition into release for once would make the meta more interesting.

301 875
  • 9 Sep '18
 Naleaus

@Frise said:

@GIRUGIRU said:
Feints are much healthier than swing manipulation as the main offensive tool in terms of visuals

You are delusional. Any new player can instantly understand the concept of getting sidestabbed or shoulder dragged.

Not getting into the rest of the debate cause I'm at work, but nahh to this. I've sat through the whole alpha having to explain where and why people got hit by my waterfalls, and most of them were not new players. Unless you're playing in 3rd or turn your FoV up past the normal limit, then you can't tell for shit where something hits.

Knight 1269 3811
  • 1
  • 9 Sep '18
 Frise

It just takes me saying "the overhead went over your head and hit your other side" for people to understand what a waterfall id when I do it to them, specially in mordhau since it doesn't curve around you for half a second like it does in chiv. Plus, these mechanics are not explained anywhere officially. If the concept of hitting different sides with the same attack was explained through official guides or in game tutorials, it would be easier to understand, and wouldn't feel like an exploit as it does to some people new to the game right now.

The difference between sidedrags being officially treated as a proper mechanic and them being a secret is what makes them feel like an exploit and not a proper mechanic.

We're talking about waterfalls and the like here, though. Simple sidestabs are in no way an unintuitive concept. Or having to look at the weapon to block an attack, which you don't need to do right now.

Baron 1551 2087
  • 9 Sep '18
 yourcrippledson

@Frise said:
Plus, these mechanics are not explained anywhere officially. If the concept of hitting different sides with the same attack was explained through official guides or in game tutorials, it would be easier to understand, and wouldn't feel like an exploit as it does to some people new to the game right now.

The difference between sidedrags being officially treated as a proper mechanic and them being a secret is what makes them feel like an exploit and not a proper mechanic.

If they had a training mode where each type of drag was broken down and explained in a hands on sort of way, and the player was made to preform the swing on a stationary bot until it was done correctly, there should be little confusion when they get hit by it in multiplayer.

80 201
  • 9 Sep '18
 Seseau

I hope Frontline comes out soon, so we can give feedback on the real game instead of this endless cycle of back and forth between feints, chambers, drags, ripostes and so on.

Combat, no matter how good, will only carry this game so far. I want to experience fun maps and their mechanics. They should be the main attraction. The reason everyone loved Stonehills was because you were storming a freakin village, and on the other side you had ballistas and boiling oil and so on. It felt like a damn storming, and it was fun. Combat, due to its broken nature (and the depth that came from it, no doubt) eventually just got in the way of that for your average player. Imagine a Stonehills on steroids, bigger, better, with more ways to kill your enemies en masse or to breach the gate.

Why can't I trigger a small avalanche on Mountain Peak to kill like 4 guys? Why can't I cut the ropes on the mostly useless bridge? That is personally what I want out of this game. Battle simulations pushed further than Chiv did, with more fun mechanics to that tune. That is fun. And I dearly hope I see it in Frontline, because refining the combat so much only caters to a very small sample of the potential playerbase.

Knight 941 2569
  • 9 Sep '18
 Pred

@Jax said:
Feints are still kinda risky right now due to the easier chamber, but we need to adjust some mechanics, ie chamber morph matching being too easy/existing etc.

Chamber morph matching, as chambering the first attack and after the opponent morphs, morphing your chamber as well?

I would say it's one of things that actually feel like you did something skillful when you pull it off and, as far as I can tell, very few people do or attempt this. This is definitely not a problem compared to constant gamble to FTP, which takes like 2% of skill of matching a morph and is much more reliable at the same time.

Knight 941 2569
  • 9 Sep '18
 Pred

@Seseau said:
I hope Frontline comes out soon, so we can give feedback on the real game instead of this endless cycle of back and forth between feints, chambers, drags, ripostes and so on.

Combat, no matter how good, will only carry this game so far.

If it's bad, it will drag it down though, exactly as it did with Chiv.

80 201
  • 9 Sep '18
 Seseau

@Pred said:

@Seseau said:
I hope Frontline comes out soon, so we can give feedback on the real game instead of this endless cycle of back and forth between feints, chambers, drags, ripostes and so on.

Combat, no matter how good, will only carry this game so far.

If it's bad, it will drag it down though, exactly as it did with Chiv.

That is true, but I'd say the combat is already far better than it was in Chiv. The current alpha is terrible for judging that though, because a large percentage of the current playerbase is already immensely good at the game.

What matters is how the average player sees it. Personally, unless I fight really, really, really good players, I have fun most of the time. Runagate, for example, is not bad at all but has a fairly straightforward fighting style with nothing obscure and it makes for enjoyable fights. PLOUPLOU on the other hand moves his body along with his attacks and makes his character look a jumbly mess. This is all from my casual pleb perspective.

That, shields and a couple of bs weapons like bardiche (but only in the hands of a good player). Those do not make for fun fights when you're on the receiving end. The rest is OK in my book, funwise.

But that's my point. Combat should be the backbone of the game, but should not extend its reach too much. A backbone is just that; a solid foundation for other things to build on. You have a backbone, but you also have hands and eyes and a mouth. And we all know that's where the real fun is.

Knight 941 2569
  • 1
  • 9 Sep '18
 Pred

@Seseau said:

@Pred said:

@Seseau said:
I hope Frontline comes out soon, so we can give feedback on the real game instead of this endless cycle of back and forth between feints, chambers, drags, ripostes and so on.

Combat, no matter how good, will only carry this game so far.

If it's bad, it will drag it down though, exactly as it did with Chiv.

That is true, but I'd say the combat is already far better than it was in Chiv. The current alpha is terrible for judging that though, because a large percentage of the current playerbase is already immensely good at the game.

Combat is better by the virtue of removing two garbage mechanics in backswings and trades (removing trades actually favors the more skileld players though). The other parts of combat I think are just slightly different here and there, not necessarily better than Chiv unfortunately.

@Seseau said:
PLOUPLOU on the other hand moves his body along with his attacks and makes his character look a jumbly mess.

He's abusing the lookup after parry thing which makes weapon slideshow all over the place, making it look like a riposte or god knows what. The rest I think comes from him using the controller, which makes his walking mechanical and hides the animations, ie. feet walking in a different direction than the camera is pointing.

Conscript 4564 6302
  • 9 Sep '18
 vanguard

@Pred said:

@Seseau said:

@Pred said:

@Seseau said:
I hope Frontline comes out soon, so we can give feedback on the real game instead of this endless cycle of back and forth between feints, chambers, drags, ripostes and so on.

Combat, no matter how good, will only carry this game so far.

If it's bad, it will drag it down though, exactly as it did with Chiv.

That is true, but I'd say the combat is already far better than it was in Chiv. The current alpha is terrible for judging that though, because a large percentage of the current playerbase is already immensely good at the game.

Combat is better by the virtue of removing two garbage mechanics in backswings and trades (removing trades actually favors the more skileld players though). The other parts of combat I think are just slightly different here and there, not necessarily better than Chiv unfortunately.

Chiv is slower yet there its harder to read stuff, insta hits all the goddamn time, norse sword, broken feints, broken drags, no chambers, clashes or morphs. Mordhau is objevtively better tbh, it is literally chivalry but fixed and improved uppon its best aspects.

Knight 941 2569
  • 9 Sep '18
 Pred

@vanguard said:
Chiv is slower yet there its harder to read stuff, insta hits all the goddamn time, norse sword, broken feints, broken drags, no chambers, clashes or morphs. Mordhau is objevtively better tbh, it is literally chivalry but fixed and improved uppon its best aspects.

There are more insta hits and more Norse Swords in Mordhau than there were in Chivalry tbh, 1handers are absolute terminal AIDS. You could gamble trade against Norse, it was a retarded thing but it was a counter of sorts and trades made lighter classes think at least SOMETIMES before spamming. Here you just midlessly gamble into everything that's not a riposte and when you get a hit in you take them through a ride of 50/50 guesses on your combos and combo feints. Chambers are a decoratory mechanic, you would probably perform better if you never attempt them, clashes only screw you when you try to target switch.

Mordhau IS objectively better, just not nearly as much better or as much different as I thought it would be. Right now mechanics-wise it's just a refurbished Chivalry, far from being a next step in the genre.

Conscript 4564 6302
  • 3
  • 9 Sep '18
 vanguard

@Pred said:

@vanguard said:
Chiv is slower yet there its harder to read stuff, insta hits all the goddamn time, norse sword, broken feints, broken drags, no chambers, clashes or morphs. Mordhau is objevtively better tbh, it is literally chivalry but fixed and improved uppon its best aspects.

There are more insta hits and more Norse Swords in Mordhau than there were in Chivalry tbh, 1handers are absolute terminal AIDS. You could gamble trade against Norse, it was a retarded thing but it was a counter of sorts and trades made lighter classes think at least SOMETIMES before spamming. Here you just midlessly gamble into everything that's not a riposte and when you get a hit in you take them through a ride of 50/50 guesses on your combos and combo feints. Chambers are a decoratory mechanic, you would probably perform better if you never attempt them, clashes only screw you when you try to target switch.

Yeah you have a point tbh, but honestly idk if its one handers or stabs. I mean, they are naturally more annoying to fight against, but the stabs are just a fuck, maybe its because they are fast and have long reach, so ends up being opressive as fuck against slower weapons.

I disagree about chambers though, I think they open up the gameplay via chamber feints and morphs, in 1vX it is kinda useless though because you cant hittrade with it and it doesn't have active parry anymore.

Idk about clashes too, I think they can actually end up being useful in 1vX if you have a big weapon and luck, at least I haven't found a way to actually use the mechanic consistently, it seems to just happen randomly and if you see it comming and your opponent doesn't, you sometimes can use it to your advantage, sometimes.

Mordhau IS objectively better, just not nearly as much better or as much different as I thought it would be. Right now mechanics-wise it's just a refurbished Chivalry, far from being a next step in the genre.

Well, think on arena shooters. We had doom first, then the next step was quake. Quake isn't much more then a refurbished doom, yet it is the next step in the genre.

I think that a lot of people that expects that mordhau will be a revolution mechanics wise will inevitably end up disapointed, as it is more of a refinement. Chivalry was the revolution, think about it, mordhau is the next step, that is refining that idea.

What can be revolutionary compared to chiv, or most other online games, is the Frontline mode, with all the roleplay shit avaliable. The whole interaction with the map etc. Chivalry had the potential of becoming a big medieval roleplay sandbox in a way, mordhau seems to be capitalizing on this.

Knight 3313 6811
  • 9 Sep '18
 Bodkin

@wizardish said:
That clip is a morph, not a feint. I don't blame you though, it visually looks like a feint.

Late morphs look exactly like janky feints now tbh.

The extended morph window goes past the animation-blending limits I think.