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Does Mordhau Really Need Feints as the Main Aspect of Combat?

Knight 1269 3811
  • 2
  • 6 Sep '18
 Frise

I love feints, I love reading them, I loved spending 3 consecutive hours on duelyard learning how to read SoW stab feints on Chivalry. This isn't Chivalry anymore though.

In previous patches, feints felt, at least to me, situational. If you opened a fight with a feint, you were just wasting stamina. If you parried a big drag, or caught the opponent on a miss, you had a great opportunity to feint, though. It was a resource, a tool. Now, it's the bread and butter of every engagement.

Feints lead to people taking advantage of unreadable stabs, twirling around like spastics to make their feints scarier, and defenders turning around and running to double parry or dodge the follow up.

They are an extremely low-risk, high reward mechanic. Little skill required to perform properly, and the biggest skill requirement for defending against. They make fights look like they are turn-based, force you into a passive role while reading them, and turn off almost every new comer to the game.

Why are they still being buffed and promoted more and more?

idk xd.PNG by an anonymous top tier player from NA

I'm not saying feints should be removed, I love them, but they should be situational, you should have to learn when to use them. Swing manipulation is a glorious mechanic, it allows a level of freedom of expression that is found in almost no other game, it's a constant feedback loop of interaction, every instant of a drag, you're reacting to what your opponent is doing and vice-versa. Instead of "I feint, u read".

And then, we're still struggling with balancing 1vX, right? What role do feints play in it? The 1 faces huge risks in feinting, because they have no time for it. They risk getting hit in the back by the other dude while they are in lockout, even if they performed a good feint. Meanwhile the X are able to spam feints at the 1 and it will be insanely hard for the 1 to read them (and they can't chamber to avoid reading them, because chambers don't have AP or hyper armour).

Low risk should have low reward. Game design 101.

Same with morphs, they're a great mechanic, yet they are wasted by being implemented as a feint with a different name.

Make offense require skill 2018

52 40

What the game needs is NOT weaker feints and morphs.

Morphs are in a good spot - they allow you to punish people who panic block but allow those who play cautiously to block them. If you're getting hit by morphs, you should consider chamber more or not panicking and parrying. Morphs add awesome complexity to the game with multiple counterplay options that can vary based on the speed of your weapon and your opponents' weapon. Calling them a feint with a different name is ridiculous.

Feints are honestly just weak right now. They're good against weak players, but any decent player can chamber them or just not react to them.

I do agree with lengthening the release of stabs though. It is really enjoyable to be able to morph an overhead into a food stab or an underhand into a head stab. That is the type of move that makes the gameplay enjoyable to me.

You are completely wrong about swing manipulation, however. More swing manipulation makes the game look silly, and is near impossible to balance well. What used to balance swing manipulation was the turn cap - preventing people from turning to fast while swinging, to make it look more realistic and try to balance it. But that is completely unable to balance overheads. If you want a vertical turn cap against overheads, then the overhead can just start accelerated, but then right before it hits turn your player to the left or right to delay the swing, allowing unreadable strikes. I, too, love being able to drag my strikes for target switching, for instance, but having swing manipulation be the difference between someone blocking too early and too late is a terrible strategy. Just look at how hideous chivalry became with the extreme drags. A high level player with a zweihander or GS could literally not be blocked if they were dragging to the extreme.

@Frise said:

I'm not saying feints should be removed, I love them, but they should be situational, you should have to learn when to use them. Swing manipulation is a glorious mechanic, it allows a level of freedom of expression that is found in almost no other game, it's a constant feedback loop of interaction, every instant of a drag, you're reacting to what your opponent is doing and vice-versa. Instead of "I feint, u read".

To be blunt, this is a bunch of flowery bs. They are nice, but feints and morphs are just as glorious. You want to talk about constantly reacting to what your opponent is doing? Ok, how about reacting to your opponents' stab morph into a strike. I'm constantly having to watch for a possible morph or feint. If I want, I can try to block the stab, but instead, I'll take the smarter approach and try to chamber it. Being a smart player, I even chamber the same side as him, too (a quick reaction to what my opponent is doing), and then I notice he morphs. This is where I have a decision, which is glorious and full of reaction. I have five different options, and each can be better or worse depending on my own weapon.

A) Push it. Try to just hit him with my stab. This works nice if my wepaon is much quicker than my opponent's.
B) Morph. This is the safest option if I have a slow weapon or our weapons are about the same speed. Doesn't work well if I have a quick weapon and he drags (this is a nice use of dragging btw. Adds skill and complexity.)
C) Clash. I can try to move my stam to hit his incoming swing. If you've watched some of Trix's video where he clashes - especially with the bastard sword, there is an example. Leads to really cool fights, but isn't super safe.
D) Feint to parry. This is the safest. You just feint your stab-chamber attempt, and time your next block. This is the most boring and costs some stamina, but gives you security.
E) Morph to a kick. Super risky, and doesn't reward much anymore, but it's an option.

That is freedom. That is way more freedom than some swing manipulation that is basically just trying to time your parry correctly as my opponent does their best to delay as hard and sudddenly as possible.

Knight 1269 3811
  • 1
  • 7 Sep '18
 Frise

@PhillyCheesesteak said:
Feints are honestly just weak right now. They're good against weak players, but any decent player can chamber them or just not react to them.

This just shows that you have never seen a good player in action and that you're speaking out of your ass. Go watch Giru's streams or spectate NA or EU pugs.

A high level player with a zweihander or GS could literally not be blocked if they were dragging to the extreme.

This is just worse. Objectively untrue.

Chivalry's swing manipulation looked like shit because it allowed you to freeze weapons in the air, because they had slow animations and very long release times. Delays in Mordhau don't look anywhere near as dumb as in Chivalry. I was never speaking about delays anyway. I'm speaking about sidestabs and sidedrags, which are just not worth it right now when you can use feints, morphs and delays only for low risk high reward offense, and promote facehugging and twitchy movements to make it seem like you're doing an acceling and hide your morph/feint/delay. This is what looks like absolute dogshit. All the time you see top players run towards someone, look down, and overhead feint/footdrag. Because it's the most effective tactic.

Being a smart player, I even chamber the same side as him

A smart player that has no idea what high tier gameplay looks like.

Baron 1551 2087

@Frise said:
Swing manipulation is a glorious mechanic, it allows a level of freedom of expression that is found in almost no other game, it's a constant feedback loop of interaction, every instant of a drag, you're reacting to what your opponent is doing and vice-versa. Instead of "I feint, u read".

2 hard 4 nubs. They get confused and scared and angry and blame the game for their lack of understanding of it. Gotta sell game to many many nubs. Can't make nubs angry by making it too skillful.

Also 2 much work to balance all weapons around swing manipulation when you have like 30 weapons, 10 different footspeeds, and 5 main attack mechanics which will just get weird with swing manipulation, so just lose the swing manipulation and you can simply standardise chambers and morphs and shit for each weapon. Leads to simple combat, but gets the job done and if it looks nice nobody will care... hopefully

Knight 941 2569
  • 7 Sep '18
 Pred

Let me first do some virtue signalling:

Feints are weak and easy to read, every good player can read them, you shoulD uSE fOoTwOrK anD mAnAgE DisTANCE CORRECLTY BLAH BLAH

OK.

Now, why I'm not a fan of feints being the base of offense:

  • Too easy to do
  • Don't look very good. In fact, they're the worst looking mechanic in the game right now because of all the additional spine breaking movements people add to them.
  • Boring. I press a button, you try to not press a button until it's your turn the press a button.
  • Punishability is still murky as fuck because of how many variables go into it, so you have to read, and when you read one time, they just feint the second time. Or morph, then feint a third time. Add a violent head snap for the effect and game turns into read fest. When your opponent is at least 200 IQ their second attack will be from a different side than the first one so they don't have to worry about being chambered most of the time.

Look how complicated it is to make a game such as this work on mechanical level. Then think about how complicated balance is and how much work goes to the visual side. Then realize the biggest part of offense of our long awaited pinnacle bik melee game is literally this:

Start an attack. Cancel the attack. Start a new attack.

Meh. That's just a very underwhelming design if you ask me. Chivalry came out 6 years ago. I like when the game is about the bik clanks and big dos, not the bik stares and bik don'ts.

I don't buy anything about feints being weak now, in patch 16 they were much weaker than now and Pacman was demolishing duel servers with a playstyle based on LMB feint.

Duchess 806 3550
  • 7 Sep '18
 Stouty

Why wouldn't you want feints as the foundation of the combat? Drags are "glorious" apparantly but are just as braindead as feinting and looks terrible to normies. They also cost no stam so they're already in a stronger position than feints. The issue currently is that certain feints are unreadable, mostly because stabs are too powerful.

You then go on to say feints are too oppresive in 1vX. In chiv as a skilled player feints are a blessing as they give you an opening against the teamers if you can punish them. They also allow you to quickly kill off a lesser player who can't read as well.

Drags and morphs can't really be punished consistently and therefore demand your full attention for the duration of the swing which IS oppressive in 1vx. One guy can morph and drag in a single "move" and waste a huge amount of your time whilst the other guy gets a flanking position on you. Only noobs think that feints are the issue in this genre

frise u are wrong

that sandwich guy said to chamber more against morphs??? bro WHAT?

Crippled thinks drags are high skill ok how? Literally just as braindead as feints

Predator feints arent turn based because they offer the enemy the opportunity to seize your turn

Guys let's all pledge to be more intelligent in the future

Knight 1269 3811
  • 7 Sep '18
 Frise

@Stouty said:
Drags are "glorious" apparantly but are just as braindead as feinting and looks terrible to normies.

Delay drags are quite braindead but still require more skill to perform than feints, and you can force a parry on them, the other dude has to adjust their aim to your footwork. It's interactive. It's a better mechanic. And come on bro they don't look bad anymore, even the most extreme drags look quite natural (well maybe not some halberd lmb delays). I'm talking about sidedrags anyway. Sidestabs are useless right now and are in every way a better offensive mechanic for the game. You should have to aim upwards to parry overheads; Overhead morph into downwards stab should be a thing that worked. It's something that any braindead kid can understand. "oh u aim ur attacks and the opponent has to follow ur sword ok". "hue frise u wanna bring oh footdrags back idiot" you can make direction a thing without buffing footdrags to hell if you have half a brain.

In chiv as a skilled player...

Bruh this is Mordhau

Drags and morphs can't really be punished consistently and therefore demand your full attention for the duration of the swing which IS oppressive in 1vx.

You can force a parry on delays though, and if you see the delay coming you can dodge it and get an opening. The delayer has to perform good swing manipulation in order to not telegraph the attack and let you do this. Meanwhile if they just feint/morph you, you need to either hard read it or gamble it, and they just pressed a button and maybe moved around to scare u.

Crippled thinks drags are high skill ok how? Literally just as braindead as feints

They require more skill to perform than feints. Common sense would indicate that this should make them more powerful. You're only thinking about delays, though. You probably haven't done a proper sidedrag in your life hahaha Stouty more like Shity

Predator feints arent turn based because they offer the enemy the opportunity to seize your turn

After they took their turn to hard read it like a little bitch or gamble.

Guys let's all pledge to be more intelligent in the future

Says the guy that spams overheads like a braindead caveman hahaha bruh ever heard of uppercuts

Knight 941 2569
  • 1
  • 7 Sep '18
 Pred

@Stouty said
Predator feints arent turn based because they offer the enemy the opportunity to seize your turn

Like, in Chiv maybe they kinda did, they don't now. When you eat a hit and they combo, you just have to stand there and read a bullshit anim Axe lookdown twist feint.

I can seize people's turn when I have a Bastard Sword or Rapier because punishes actually work with these weapons. Otherwise it's just rage fuel material. Better equip Zwei or Spear and mass farm people from safety than waste time in the headache-inducing soup of mechanics of 1v1 game.

Knight 1269 3811
  • 7 Sep '18
 Frise

I just don't get why you would want the one mechanic that is easiest to perform to be the most powerful and important thing. It's just a boring mechanic when it's the one thing that works the most. Sidestabs are still getting nerfed to oblivion every patch when they are more intuitive, better looking, more interactive, and simply a more interesting mechanic. My guess is you just don't want to put effort into learning how to play a different meta than chiv's.

Feints are a boring mechanic compared to any kind of swing manipulation. They bring a shitload of problems to the game all the time. New players dislike them. They award shitty players with free hits against any player that doesn't have at least 500 hours in the game or comes from Chivalry.

Pressing Q shouldn't be the hardest thing in the game to defend against. That's common sense. It's not about balance, it's about the game being interesting and having proper risk/reward ratios.

Baron 1551 2087

@Stouty said:

Crippled thinks drags are high skill ok how? Literally just as braindead as feints

Maybe if you use them in a braindead way. If you are just going to do the same thing every time then sure. It is like a feint. But with a feint you can do like 4 of them in 1 second and just hope for the best, and a drag you shouldn't even know if you are doing one until you see how the enemy is reacting to your attack, and you react accordingly. Thus makes every single attack a unique opportunity to do thing differently. Where as feinting feels like the opposite.

Maybe you just don't understand how to utilize swing manipulation to its full potential?
So in chiv i am approaching my enemy and do an overhead. I can make it look like i am delay dragging and then accel, vice versa, i can go left or right, i can fake left or right, i can pretend to fake left or right while doing the above. And i can do all of that while I am doing my overhead. Swing manipulation gives options and keeps the enemy guessing. When you say feints are the same as drags it seems like you haven't even played these games.

Feints need drags to be interesting, and vice versa. Just saying we don't need drags cause we have feints and they are the same thing is just retarded.

Knight 1269 3811
  • 7 Sep '18
 Frise

Doesn't surprise me that Stouty describes swing manipulation as braindead when all he does in his montages is spam overhead foot delays.

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ive always argued that the attack after a feint should cost way more stamina since its usually the killing blow near the end of a duel. thats when i feel it suitable to use feints. and fucking it up should very nearly cost you your own life in return.

for 1vX just have the game give back the stamina you risked before getting the kill

also double feints should straight up be removed or cost 50 stamina

Conscript 4564 6302
  • 8
  • 7 Sep '18
 vanguard

The problem I see with the idea of making parry more directional, like having to look up to parry a overhead, is that the animation for overhead allow you to fake out so fucking easily, and there is no way around this, its related to the angle of the attack. I'm absolutely against this shit, it doesn't look good, it doesn't play good, the visual clues are non-existent and the skill it adds is negligible because its a dumb easy manuever to make if parries are more directional, while being a pain in the ass to deffend against.

Same shit with stabs, it is braindead easy to fake a left stab but land on the right side, if parry is more directional, its easier to execute these manuevers. I'd rather have them being hard to execute then common place. Again, it doesn't look any better then feints too.

This "takning turn" thing makes absolutely no sense or I am really not following the logic behind this argument, because essentialy you are all the time taking turns, the only moment this doesn't happen is when both fighters are not fighting, or when a clash happens. If your opponent attacks before you, you wait, read, react. You are taking turns all the fucking time with every single mechanic avaliable, dafuck is the point with this argument. Tell me, what sort of mechanic you guys want that will make so both players imput at the same time instead of taking turns? Turn the game into a big clash fight?

Feints are braindead easy to use when you are using something fast like a bastard sword in a duel against a halberd or zwei, because it is so fucking hard to punish feints with slow weapons, and stabs are a pain to read at the moment. It isn't a problem with feints, its a problem with how fights goes with certain weapons against others, and weird fast as fuck stabs.

I think that aside from stabs, the mechanics are in a very good place depending on which weapon u use against other weapons. I'd say most problems now result from timings of the weapons than the mechanics themselves.

Right now, it is not easy to land a feint depending on the weapon you are using/going against, but with some weapons it is.

I think overall that fast weapons, specially swords, are pretty unfair. They get excelent turncap, fucking good stabs, morphs, feints, damage, reach.. everything is fucking great, there is no downside it seems. 1h weapons can drag pretty well AND have the hardest to deal with feints, this is not balanced imho. Either remove their drags, or make the feints easier to deal with on 1h weapons tbh both its just too fucking much. Another option could be to buff bigger weapons, give halberd, zwei, spear etc better turncap.

Point being, I think drags are in a exelent spot and feints too, but weapons need balancing.

Duchess 806 3550
  • 7 Sep '18
 Stouty

No frise you can't consistently punish a drag because you can quite easily bring it in faster. If your punish attempt only works on noobs that can't follow your footwork or realise when to accel then it isn't a consistent punish

kicks allow for punishes even with slow weapons, if it's a micro feint then it might be unpunishable but it will then be easier to read

crippled show me an example of you cleverly dragging someone, i can't wait to see your 200 iq swing manipulation in action

as for this general sentiment that offense should be skillful, this to me shows a lack of understanding of the genre. Slashers already have the offensive components of other competitve titles (aiming, footwork, target switching) as well as these unique mechanics (feinting dragging). The skill cap largely comes from how you can defensively react to these mechanics

It's telling that you name pac as a successful feinter, pred and not some random no name who suddenly discovered the q button. Pac does so well because he utilises feints more effectively and responds to them better than his opponents

side stabs right now are instant af why do you want to buff them?

Knight 196 414

Stouty get off the forums and get back to those GAAAAINZZ!!!

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@Frise said:

@PhillyCheesesteak said:
Feints are honestly just weak right now. They're good against weak players, but any decent player can chamber them or just not react to them.
This just shows that you have never seen a good player in action and that you're speaking out of your ass. Go watch Giru's streams or spectate NA or EU pugs.

Haha yeah, I must be clueless to disagree with you. No, I just have a different view of what makes the game fun. If you pick a weapon that isn't slow, clambering is a definite option. Costs a lot of stamina, but feints aren't magical free hits.

A high level player with a zweihander or GS could literally not be blocked if they were dragging to the extreme.

This is just worse. Objectively untrue.

No, it really isn't. At least not back in 2016 when I stopped playing. By moving overheads left or right correctly a saw I guaranteed a hit. The issue with so many players of this game is that you've spent so much time in chiv that it is you're only basis.

Chivalry's swing manipulation looked like shit because it allowed you to freeze weapons in the air, because they had slow animations and very long release times. Delays in Mordhau don't look anywhere near as dumb as in Chivalry.

It's about more than just looking dumb. Dragging being the primary method for getting hits is not balanceable.

I was never speaking about delays anyway. I'm speaking about sidestabs and sidedrags, which are just not worth it right now when you can use feints, morphs and delays only for low risk high reward offense, and promote facehugging and twitchy movements to make it seem like you're doing an acceling and hide your morph/feint/delay. This is what looks like absolute dogshit. All the time you see top players run towards someone, look down, and overhead feint/footdrag. Because it's the most effective tactic.

Which can be countered by clambering with a non-slow weapon.

Being a smart player, I even chamber the same side as him

A smart player that has no idea what high tier gameplay looks like.

Once again, haha I'm dumb because you don't like my thoughts.

On a side note, could you give me an example of someone you consider a high tier player? Evidently I need to learn a ton.

Knight 1269 3811
  • 1
  • 7 Sep '18
 Frise

Raw boner, wizardish, bob sapp, giru, stouty. Anyone playing pugs or scrims. Everyone of them will you that what you said about feints being only effective against bad players is objectively untrue. It's not about disagreeing with me or what makes the game fun, it's about you having no idea what goes on in high level play.

And the chiv thing is untrue, dragging never guaranteed you a hit, it was always parryable. Not a matter of opinion, just a matter of understanding how the combat works.

301 875
  • 8 Sep '18
 Naleaus

I never fall for any feint cause I just stab with waraxe.

Knight 941 2569
  • 8 Sep '18
 Pred

@Naleaus said:
I never fall for any feint cause I just stab with waraxe.

This.

Also, no one is crutching on Zwei when everyone is crutching on Zwei.

Two biggest 200 IQ meta secrets of the game REVEALED.

@Stouty said:
It's telling that you name pac as a successful feinter, pred and not some random no name who suddenly discovered the q button.

Heavy use of one mechanic while cutting out the others for better survivability should not let you be one of the best players, it's just a sign of poor design/balance. And I'm talking patch 16 3-4 months ago, when feints were much weaker and chambers actually did have a role, as you could outstam somebody who didn't chamber.

I'm fine with chamber feint and chamber morph feint being strong, as you have to put effort to do them and use them at right times, but the 1H spam combo feints or the spear guy at the edge of a group fight feinting me 6 times in a row because when your feint doesn't work the natural thing to do is do it again - this is just poor gameplay. On the other hand, where feints absolutely should be strong - feinting FTP on misses, they don't because helicopters just don't give a fuck and continue combo every time.

Start an attack, cancel the attack, start a new attack, staple of the offense 2018. Don't know how controls are in For Honor, but I think even there you will find more sophisticated shit.

Knight 337 778
  • 8 Sep '18
 AngelEyes

I usually leave this stuff to the big boys because I can't keep up most the the time. Although I feel 100% with Frise and Pred on this on the other hand I have much respect for Stouty as a person and a player, not lightly dismissing his input.

Now that For Honor has been mentioned I feel urged to say something. Before stoning me to death for contrasting For Honor to Mordy please hear me out and understand that I openly acknowledge it to be inferior to Mordhau in every single way. Although, after buying FH(ForHonor) a few months ago and logging a few hundred hours I have come to appreciate the game for what it is, which admittedly can't even be compared to Mordhau game-play wise as the game is essentially a MOBA with more traditional fighting mechanics (Like Tekken or something).

FH gets blasted for being a heap of unbalanced trash but in all honestly the game isn't nearly as unbalanced as most people make it out to be. Cheap thrills? Cheese mechanics? 100%. People just don't take the time to learn the characters and how predictably most people will play them. FH's problem isn't balance, believe it or not the games Heroes actually have a lot of really cool kits tools and utility to use on the field. The problem is that Ubi insists on making some of these Heroes (Not all) Focus on ONE move set instead of utilizing its entire kit. (The now reworked Valks sweep, Wardens shoulder bash, Conq's shield bash ... ect ect)

This is where Mordhau comes in and while the games are so different, if we would imagine the weapons in Mordhau to be the class/hero kit like in FH, I think it's a perfectly valid contrast. This is why I feel the way Pred and Frise do although I'm not sure for the same reasons. So yes, without getting into High-tier Vs.Trash- tier play (Because I think it's stlightly irrelevant, not completely though) I think having one single mechanic to potently overshadow the rest of the utility is a giant flaw. In Mordhau's case that would be "The Q button".

This is bad design that goes beyond skill caps and learning curves I think, even though it obviously does effect them. For example putting aside skill caps for a moment. What does FH cheese, Mordhau Q button, and shields in Mordhau all have in common?
The answer is they are boring to play against (and I think for many of us subjectively boring to play as) not to mention in some cases downright infuriating especially to new players.

One more thing before my coffee buzz wears off and I start spouting gibberish beyond the already above -

I think this a thread of its own if it hasn't already gotten one, but personally I think weapon diversity in Mordhau is pretty terrible actually. Besides 1handers and the Waraxe ect most weapons in Mordhau generally don't shine on their own. While some of the weapons do in fact have stark dissimilar qualities, I think in general there is too little difference between the majority of the weapons. They have done some things like Billhook pull and to be quite honest I would love to see more stuff like that.

I won't comment on what in my opinion mechanically wise could be done to "smooth out" the tools we have to use in Mordhau, because that would just be me pretending to talk about something of which I have no idea what I am talking about.

I think I should shut up because I'm just spewing