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Make part of or all of windup parryable

252 866
  • 1
  • 29 Jun '18
 Cswic

Half joke half serious.

Longer weapons winding inside / nearly inside of people is not a very good look. Long weapons don't suffer any draw back from being used in facehug range (semi muh realism argument) and can arguably be said to be better than shorter weapons at this range due to the above.

With the danger of windup being parryable people would be less likely to facehug as much (which is something I see negative opinions about), especially with longer weapons. Would be a soft way to encourage weapons to fight more at their "proper" range. Smaller weapons that require you to be closer to your target would not be affected nearly as much since close range is their fighting range anyway.

Don't think this would impact morphs or feints too much unless the person is too close to begin with since it would be tough to purposefully run into someone's feinted windup assuming they're the "proper" distance. But hey, who knows.

Anyway that's all I got so fire away.

Knight 685 1855
  • 30 Jun '18
 ÐMontyleGueux

It's a good idea imo. It would also change the way people drag, instead of seeing their sword go through you until release, you would get better looking drags.

Knight 3313 6811
  • 30 Jun '18
 Bodkin

It would be interesting to try, but a more refined way to do this would be to only let it work if the weapon model touches you during windup or something.

I could see it being something that just encourages mindless facehug vs longer weapons though.

Duke 2266 4010
  • 30 Jun '18
 Huggles

This would break the game and make defense an absolute joke. Forcing parries would be a joke.

Knight 3313 6811
  • 30 Jun '18
 Bodkin

Yeah it might be something you would have to make the game around from scratch. As the game is right now it could cause some crap

Not sure really

252 866
  • 3
  • 30 Jun '18
 Cswic

@Bodkin said:
It would be interesting to try, but a more refined way to do this would be to only let it work if the weapon model touches you during windup or something.

I could see it being something that just encourages mindless facehug vs longer weapons though.

If a longer weapon like a spear or zwei were to become weaker in close range as a result they could also just be buffed in another way to support their longer range role to compensate. Could possibly help to differentiate weapon roles more than they are currently.

Re Huggles. Parry timing or angles could be tweaked as well in order to balance things out more with parryable windup.

Knight 30 160
  • 30 Jun '18
 Comeandsee

pretty sure theres actually a part of windup called early release, that is infact blockable.
help @jax

Knight 685 1855
  • 30 Jun '18
 ÐMontyleGueux

@Comeandsee said:
pretty sure theres actually a part of windup called early release, that is infact blockable.
help @jax

Early release is relative to how you move your mouse during windup afaik. Meaning that there's almost no early release on a regular attack, but there's a huge one if you try to do a rainbow overhead.

Knight 766 3329
  • 30 Jun '18
 Mittsies

Takes two to tango. Facehugging is something that either player could do, and your suggestion as written would no doubt encourage face-hugging by the defending player in order to parry his opponent's attacks earlier than normal, which is arguably just as bad as the attacker being encouraged to facehug.

Though I don't hate your idea, because I think it's something that's on the minds of anyone who's fought a spear or halberd recently. When your weapon is long enough, the end of the weapon goes beyond the defender's camera view and the attacks become unreadable, which is very ugly and not something we want to see make it out of alpha. Kicks need to be reworked into something that only really benefits defenders trying to keep people from facehugging, rather than what they are now: a way to gamble people for a free hit off the stun.

Knight 685 1855
  • 30 Jun '18
 ÐMontyleGueux

@Mittsies said:
Takes two to tango. Facehugging is something that either player could do, and your suggestion as written would no doubt encourage face-hugging by the defending player in order to parry his opponent's attacks earlier than normal, which is arguably just as bad as the attacker being encouraged to facehug.

That wouldn't work though. If your opponent rush in to parry at facehug range, you can feint then kick him easily while he's running towards you.

252 866
  • 7
  • 30 Jun '18
 Cswic

Overheads windup over the shoulder. Lmbs windup quite a bit behind you as well. Stabs and stab to slash morphs would probably be the most affected and particularly only on the longer weapons. Like the next time you or anyone else play and find yourselves at a typical neutral spacing, try to run in as if you'd be forcing a parry on their windup. Unless the opponent is actively trying to force their weapon windup inside you there likely won't be many chances. This is something that is hard to judge how it will play out in reality but those are just my thoughts on it. The situation could very well end up like you and huggles feel it may, which I agree would be bad.

Still, for the most part I really don't think you're going to see people trying to actively run in and be able to parry someone's feinted overhead windup. The speed just isn't there typically and bubble helps to prevent this as well.

As for kick being the only anti facehug measure. The only time I see kick working and being fair as an anti facehug measure is when kick range is shorter than whatever the shortest weapon swing range is if kick stun is going to remain. Probably maul or mallet/blacksmith hammer. Right now kick is being used to discourage shorter weapons from fighting at the only range they can fight at which is simply retarded.

80 286
  • 30 Jun '18
 wizardish

Early release already does what you're describing. It's especially noticeable on stabs. It's also very noticeable when you try to put your attack into somebody and drag it away - it doesn't really work. I don't fully understand the issue you're describing either. What exactly is so problematic currently that would warrant adding more early release? Early release is already an artificial mechanic that, if done poorly (i.e, making the window too large), can make the game feel clunky.

Baron 1551 2087
  • 2
  • 30 Jun '18
 yourcrippledson

@wizardish said:
What exactly is so problematic currently that would warrant adding more early release? Early release is already an artificial mechanic that, if done poorly (i.e, making the window too large), can make the game feel clunky.

I see what he is saying about lack of disadvantage using long weapons in facehug range. It makes more sense for them to be used at a distance, realistically. But the issue with that is I barely feel the advantage to using longer weapons aside from that, so I would rather try to improve long weapons advantages/utility at the proper distances, rather than making more disadvantages...

I want to see facehugging dealt with in general. But a solution that only hurts longer weapons isn't what I want to see.

This is all speaking within the context of duels, which I am not sure if they are even balancing anything around anymore.

Duke 5559 13285
  • 30 Jun '18
 Jax — Community Manager

that's already a thing, early release frames are added for lookdowns

Knight 30 160
252 866
  • 4
  • 30 Jun '18
 Cswic

How long is current early release window? And is it a static amount across weapons or different?

For the purpose of this thread the main offenders imo are stab windups.

Whether for just a stab or stab to slash morph mainly on longer weapons. Maybe the early release window on their stabs should be longer?

When I get to play tomorrow I'll try to get clips of what I think are the offensive situations that should be tweaked. If I can't get any good clips or people decide it is fine anyway then this thread is a non issue especially since early release already exists.

Edit: thanks for the screenshot info

80 286
  • 2
  • 30 Jun '18
 wizardish

The screenshot has the answers.

988 6974
  • 1 Jul '18
 marox — Project Lead

@Cswic said:
How long is current early release window? And is it a static amount across weapons or different?

Early release is a percentage of animation which is fixed per attack, but the total time varies with weapons because their release times are different. It is also further increased (dynamically) in certain situations like look-up overheads and lookdown undercuts (this is what prevents back hits). Stabs and strikes have separate values, as do ripostes (because the animations are different).

252 866
  • 1
  • 1 Jul '18
 Cswic

After 30 min or so of purposefully trying to windup stabs inside people I couldn't get any clips I felt were particularly problematic. Unless someone else wants to provide some clips or keep the discussion going I'd say the thread is dead. Thanks for info about early release as well.

301 875
  • 1 Jul '18
 Naleaus

@Cswic said:
After 30 min or so of purposefully trying to windup stabs inside people I couldn't get any clips I felt were particularly problematic. Unless someone else wants to provide some clips or keep the discussion going I'd say the thread is dead. Thanks for info about early release as well.

Do you think the problem you thought existed would be that people are waiting to chamber instead of just forcing the parry?