Mordhau

I Believe We Should Remove Combo Feint To Parry.

176 454
  • 3
  • 6 Jun '18
 Koda

I feel like this is a feature leftover from chivalry that perhaps the devs haven't considered removing. For anyone who doesn't know, combo feint to parry (CFTP) is when you perform a swing, then combo into another swing but rather than following through, you right click and feint that next attack and perform a parry instantly. I'm trying to think of reasons why we need it. Here are reasons why I think it should be removed:

  1. Very high risk dodges are currently just not even worth attempting by the best players. With how controllable weapon strikes are, it's very difficult to pull off a successful matrix / duck. The problem is, if I see the attack coming and read it properly and matrix it perfectly while starting my own attack, it will be met with a parry. I can try and drag it out but they can just feint, wait a sec, then parry, so the only thing I've earned by doing this high risk, high skill move is that they lost a tiny bit of stamina doing a feint. CFTP renders the most high skill, high risk, entertaining and fun defensive maneuvers nearly useless, and I think that's bad for the game.

  2. They look silly. Do a stab and then combo into a swing and feint during it's transition. Basically your weapon goes from a fully extended stab to the parry position really fast and it doesn't make intuitive sense that you just hit someone in full thrust and they parried you.

  3. They are a band aid for players with bad offense. Right now offense is kind of thoughtless. You just pick either an instant riposte accel, an insane footdrag, a waterfall, or a morph / feint. You just pick one at random and hope to hit your enemy, but deciding when to attack is simple, always attack and ask questions later. If you end up being caught out of range you can easily CFTP and you're fine. I think having a bad offense should be a big deal. If you mess up on offense you should be dramatically punished for it.

  4. Some weapons already have no CFTP. The weapons that can't combo, and I think they've proven that the game is still fun without it.

  5. Removing CFTP might discourage crazy waterfalls / drags without limiting player control. I would feel a bit more hesitant about going all out with a ridiculous drag if I knew that I could be punished if it doesn't connect.

  6. Players who are good at aiming and timing their attacks would be rewarded. Players who aren't would be punished.

Perhaps keep CFTP on a successful hit but don't have it on a miss, so that 1vX is a bit easier. I'm not sure about this.
I genuinely can't think of a solid reason of why we need CFTP. It feels like a leftover feature from chivalry.

EDIT: I've been trying these fights lately with some players. Game doesn't slow to a crawl, nor does it become overly about dodging attacks. Here's a gif of punishing a footdrag by jumping over it and hitting someone: https://thumbs.gfycat.com/VengefulDelectableGoldenmantledgroundsquirrel-size_restricted.gif... I think that was really cool.

176 454
  • 6 Jun '18
 Koda

Maybe they could consider trying this out on the test server and see what people think. I feel like if people give it a chance without freaking out they'll like it in the long run. I know some people would get all upset because this would really hurt their spastic and extreme drag playstyles, but I think most people would enjoy the game more this way. I'm sure you guys can think of some reasons why CFTP is a good thing, I'd love to read them.

Knight 1269 3804
  • 6 Jun '18
 Frise

Removing cftp entirely is a terrible idea. What could be tried is adding a small window during the start of s combo's windup where you can't feint it. This would keep cftp the same while making misses more punishable.

176 454
  • 7 Jun '18
 Koda

Could you explain why you think it's a terrible idea?

Mercenary 176 611
  • 7 Jun '18
 Stauxie

At this point there is no reason to remove it. Not many people actually complain about this, at least not that I see.

176 454
  • 1
  • 7 Jun '18
 Koda

I don't think the fact that not a lot of people complain about it is a good reason to have it. It's been a thing for years for chiv players I don't think people even think about it, but I think it could improve gameplay if it were gone.

As for there being no reason to remove it, I just gave you a list of them.

Do you have any reason to keep it?

Baron 1551 2083

I suggested this a while ago when I was relatively new to the forum. My reason for doing so was that it is very stupid looking and unintuitive when you see the enemy is finishing off a swing, and APPEARS vulnerable. But you must learn with experience that in that moment he has teleporting arms that result in the parry.

Coming from Chiv and being used to this, I still think it looks stupid, and would much rather sacrifice the ability to do this, so I can finish off my swing with realistic timing, and connect with my enemy in a way that makes sense.

It would add a lot more commitment to each swing like in a real sword fight. Resulting in more realistic and less spammy gameplay.

I put myself in the shoes of a nub, and this looks even morer stupider, and is highly unsatisfying. Because this moment when you can CFTP is the moment when a nub would intuitively think it is the appropriate time to take advantage of the enemies seeming "mistake", and the fact that the enemie's weapon is in no position that would realistically allow them to parry a strike from any angle.

So I would love to see this tested. I don't complain about it anymore cause nobody would listen.

Basically nobody cares. Sorry. Won't happen lol too many veteran players would freak the fuck out.

176 454
  • 7 Jun '18
 Koda

@yourcrippledson said:
I suggested this a while ago when I was relatively new to the forum. My reason for doing so was that it is very stupid looking and unintuitive when you see the enemy is finishing off a swing, and APPEARS vulnerable. But you must learn with experience that in that moment he has teleporting arms that result in the parry.

Coming from Chiv and being used to this, I still think it looks stupid, and would much rather sacrifice the ability to do this, so I can finish off my swing with realistic timing, and connect with my enemy in a way that makes sense.

I put myself in the shoes of a nub, and this looks even morer stupider, and is highly unsatisfying. Because this moment when you can FTP is the moment when a nub would intuitively think it is the appropriate time to take advantage of the enemies seeming "mistake", and the fact that the enemie's weapon is in no position that would realistically allow them to parry a strike from any angle.

So I would love to see this tested. I don't complain about it anymore cause nobody would listen.

Basically nobody cares. Sorry. Won't happen lol

Yeah I really don't see why this idea gets dismissed. It would dramatically change gameplay for the better if we remove it and I'm still waiting for a reason to why it is needed. Hopefully a Dev can chime in on why they want it in the game.

Knight 253 542
  • 1
  • 7 Jun '18
 Gauntlet

Since it's relevant I'm going to quote my own post regarding cftp from another thread. I'm not strongly for or against cftp. We are also able to experience this game without cftp right now by pairing any of the following against each other: executioners swords, alt halberd, alt bardiche, spears. Perhaps make a video featuring only non combo weapons and see how it feels?

It's an interesting mechanic; in Chivalry it was needed because man at arms could dodge any attack and force misses. Mordhau has no dodge mechanic, so there is no forcing a miss unless you outplay your opponent. Then you tech their miss with either a morph or a feint to bait cftp, which either they perform it and are punished or try to read your morph / feint. It creates a meta-game within a miss instead of just outright being punished. Think of the cftp from missed kicks from patch 14 vs the missed kick of patch 15.
I think it would feel better for the defender to be able to just punish missed strikes more simply by removing combo on missed strikes, and less of a technical response required. It would make more sense for new players, as you would normally suspect that a missed strike is something you punish. However this comes at the price of once more hurting offense and creating a dynamic where you play defensively to try and footwork strikes.
Removing cftp would dramatically change the entire game, it would also mean fights are shorter / more decisive and less layered. I wouldn't mind testing it but I have a feeling it would not be popular because suddenly a non-registering strike goes from "oops cftp" to "why didn't that hit now I'm fucked".

Knight 693 1581
  • 7 Jun '18
 das

I am biased towards no CFTP on whiffs because I like playing a slow poke and bait playstyle and don't use the extreme drag variations that whiff if super duper counterfootworked. I really like the dodging aspect of the game. Thus, I can't really give an objective assessment at hand as to whether it's healthier for the general populace/competitive play.

Personally, when I whiff the Exec sword, I don't get mad at not being able to CFTP and instead think "welp, had that comig." But I think most people get more mad at dying in Mordhau than I do for smaller reasons.

  • 7 Jun '18
 NachoAU
This comment was deleted.
176 454
  • 1
  • 7 Jun '18
 Koda

@Gauntlet said:
Since it's relevant I'm going to quote my own post regarding cftp from another thread. I'm not strongly for or against cftp. We are also able to experience this game without cftp right now by pairing any of the following against each other: executioners swords, alt halberd, alt bardiche, spears. Perhaps make a video featuring only non combo weapons and see how it feels?

It's an interesting mechanic; in Chivalry it was needed because man at arms could dodge any attack and force misses. Mordhau has no dodge mechanic, so there is no forcing a miss unless you outplay your opponent. Then you tech their miss with either a morph or a feint to bait cftp, which either they perform it and are punished or try to read your morph / feint. It creates a meta-game within a miss instead of just outright being punished. Think of the cftp from missed kicks from patch 14 vs the missed kick of patch 15.
I think it would feel better for the defender to be able to just punish missed strikes more simply by removing combo on missed strikes, and less of a technical response required. It would make more sense for new players, as you would normally suspect that a missed strike is something you punish. However this comes at the price of once more hurting offense and creating a dynamic where you play defensively to try and footwork strikes.
Removing cftp would dramatically change the entire game, it would also mean fights are shorter / more decisive and less layered. I wouldn't mind testing it but I have a feeling it would not be popular because suddenly a non-registering strike goes from "oops cftp" to "why didn't that hit now I'm fucked".

If hits are failing to properly register, that is a separate issue that needs to be fixed. Fights will be shorter? Good. A lot of people are saying the game is too easy on defense and it's just a chamber and parry fest. This would offer a high risk move that I would consider both defensive and offensive, as you dodge and strike at the same time. It rewards good defense by buffing offense.

176 454
  • 7 Jun '18
 Koda

@das said:
I am biased towards no CFTP on whiffs because I like playing a slow poke and bait playstyle and don't use the extreme drag variations that whiff if super duper counterfootworked. I really like the dodging aspect of the game. Thus, I can't really give an objective assessment at hand as to whether it's healthier for the general populace/competitive play.

Personally, when I whiff the Exec sword, I don't get mad at not being able to CFTP and instead think "welp, had that comig." But I think most people get more mad at dying in Mordhau than I do for smaller reasons.

I feel the same way. I can't say how most people would react but I feel like if they get angry at the game for punishing them for missing, they need to seriously think about that for a minute haha.

Duke 5473 13074
  • 7 Jun '18
 Jax — Community Manager

I think that it'd reduce the skill of the game. I think forcing a miss deserves a punish, but that punish shouldn't be a guaranteed hit. Right now this punish is a much higher stam cost, and that's fine. On top of that, the person who missed can be easily baited by a feint since they're already primed to expect their opponent to try to punish their miss - they then combo feint, panic parry and get punished.

By removing CFTP you're removing a lot of options and not improving much, if anything.

176 454
  • 3
  • 7 Jun '18
 Koda

@Jax said:
I think that it'd reduce the skill of the game. I think forcing a miss deserves a punish, but that punish shouldn't be a guaranteed hit. Right now this punish is a much higher stam cost, and that's fine. On top of that, the person who missed can be easily baited by a feint since they're already primed to expect their opponent to try to punish their miss - they then combo feint, panic parry and get punished.

By removing CFTP you're removing a lot of options and not improving much, if anything.

After a dodge, the only thing you've got is that they will have to combo and feint. If they panic parry, that's a second mistake and doesn't have anything to do with the first one. So all you're doing is taking some Stam and getting initiative. I don't think any good player would see that as worth the risk of doing a dodge when you can parry and riposte instead.

I don't see how removing it reduces skill. Cftp is a handicap that reduces the need for skill in attacking, so I don't understand how you can say that removing it would remove skill. I think it's the opposite. Removing Cftp would reward skilled players and punish unskilled players.

I think if anyone should give a guaranteed hit, it's this.

EDIT: Also it's not a guaranteed hit anyways, there's so many time's where I matrix / duck and my next hit doesn't connect because they either also dodge or they followup with a kick combo and it interrupts my counter, but that's really rare. A lot of time though I'll be out of range, usually if I jump over an attack.

251 859
  • 3
  • 7 Jun '18
 Cswic

@Jax said:
I think that it'd reduce the skill of the game. I think forcing a miss deserves a punish, but that punish shouldn't be a guaranteed hit. Right now this punish is a much higher stam cost, and that's fine. On top of that, the person who missed can be easily baited by a feint since they're already primed to expect their opponent to try to punish their miss - they then combo feint, panic parry and get punished.

By removing CFTP you're removing a lot of options and not improving much, if anything.

Similar logic can be applied to falling for a feint, yet the forced walk speed on a missed parry was introduced to make falling for a feint a near guaranteed hit.

Personally I just think that combo feint to parry is one of the more unintuitive mechanics in the game currently. The fact that there are some fairly regular Mordhau players who still do not CFTP provides a small sample to support this. I doubt that they are just choosing to not cftp out of protest but rather are just unaware of the mechanic. I wouldn't call these players unskilled, they are just not aware of what CFTP is.

CFTP says that if you miss an attack, the best thing to do is just to double down and swing again so you can feint out of that attack in order to parry sooner. It sounds backwards until you explain to people that the recovery time after a missed swing is longer than if you combo and then feint. I would bet that if you threw 10 players new to the genre into a game and just let them play for a week they would figure out nearly every mechanic aside from CFTP.

Sure, this is what tutorials are for and a 1 min tutorial could probably be enough to explain the mechanic. I am honestly curious to know whether or not CFTP was a mechanic purposefully introduced in Chivalry or if it was just a happy coincidence.

If CFTP was removed tomorrow with no other changes then I think the overall gameplay would become slower. People would be less willing to take risks because of the lack of a safety net. Naked and light armor would become much stronger due to their potential to bait out attacks, much like kick baiting in patch 15.

Now if CFTP was removed and parry lockout windows after a miss reduced to some extent then maybe it could work. The difficulty then is finding the lockout timing where misses are still punishable but not so long that the enemy has an eternity to decide whether or not to punish.

Knight 693 1581
  • 1
  • 7 Jun '18
 das

@Jax said:
I think that it'd reduce the skill of the game. I think forcing a miss deserves a punish, but that punish shouldn't be a guaranteed hit. Right now this punish is a much higher stam cost, and that's fine. On top of that, the person who missed can be easily baited by a feint since they're already primed to expect their opponent to try to punish their miss - they then combo feint, panic parry and get punished.

By removing CFTP you're removing a lot of options and not improving much, if anything.

This is how I feel about patch 14 kick, it felt more reliable as a mechanic in general and presurred the enemy into a forced feint read situation rather than a guaranteed punish (or in the case of level 0 and 1 helmets, death). I'm still apathetic about kick's ultimate implementation though, I'll personally adapt and be fine with whatever.

Knight 86 133
  • 1
  • 7 Jun '18
 Raegarth

I hate when I do a nice footwork and can’t punish my opponent after it.

But what I don’t like the most is that this opponent can riposte right after a CTFP.

I think « got you » but in the end I’m the guy that is surprised.

CTFP is required when you do something wrong and shouldn’t be an attack option but only a defense option.

Or, I agree with Frise though its window should be smaller.

(Well maybe both options)

Edit : im talking about late CFTP

Baron 1551 2083

@yourcrippledson said:
lol too many veteran players would freak the fuck out.

Look at them freaking out down there in "off topic", rather than actually presenting any good arguments for why CFTP is a necessary mechanic.

I thought of something else removing CFTP could benefit. I have been trying to think of a way to make WEAPON LENGTH MATTER MORE in a duel, and this is a good way to do it.

Currently the advantage weapon speed brings is far greater than the advantage weapon length does in a duel. The ability to miss on purpose and combo benefits faster weapons greatly, and there is little incentive to not do this vs the potential rewards it brings. Even if the longer weapon out-footworks a faster weapon, which is the natural counter to an early/bad swing, the faster weapon is almost always safe because they can always just use CFTP to recover, a virtually ZERO skill move to counter a well timed dodge + attack, which requires precise spacial awareness and timing and is high skill af, and risky to pull off at any skill level.

Why are we rendering one of the most skillful maneuvers in the game nearly useless with one that requires virtually none? Is it primarily there to protect spamming? Why do you have to feint your opponent when you've already outplayed them using high skill and risk? Why is my reward for such a move only guaranteed a bit of stam off my enemy? If such a maneuver doesn't deserve a hit on my enemy, what should? Is outstamming supposed to be the meta? I don't get it...

Duke 2266 4006
  • 2
  • 7 Jun '18
 Huggles

@Frise said:
Removing cftp entirely is a terrible idea. What could be tried is adding a small window during the start of s combo's windup where you can't feint it. This would keep cftp the same while making misses more punishable.

I like this a lot.

I think the main reason the devs don't want to remove it is because it would make every play super passively and try to bait misses constantly, which could make combat very slow and tedious with everyone playing like pussies

Frise's suggestion combined with more incentives to be aggressive and not just backpedal constantly and use "safe" attacks would be ideal. One of your mentions for why it would be good I flat out disagree with. Waterfalls are already extremely difficult and unreliable despite being the most interesting offensive maneuver in the game imho. I'd like to see more of them not less. If you are encouraged to use safe (i.e boring) offensive tactics and discouraged from using effective and complex ones, the game will be very dull and dumbed down imho.

I think misses should be harshly punishable but the window for punishing should be very small and require very fast response. It shouldn't be anywhere near what it is for weps that can't combo currently.