Mordhau

Kickstun (again)

Mercenary 179 612
  • 1
  • 1 Jun '18
 Stauxie

The main thing about kickstun in it's current state is revolving around gambling to get a free hit. You can revolve a playstyle around doing gamble mixups with kicks and using a hard hitting weapon to deal out damage that would've been difficult to get, but it's free. Patch 14 kick was fine to many peoples standards, yet it was changed to this. It now is just another offensive attack rather than a tool used to deter facehuggers. Being easy to counter isn't really the point in this if the reward for gambling a kick is so great.

Overall, I just want to know why it should be kept.

After-thought: When riposte feint was a thing, people didn't like it, and it was removed. Devs decided to bring it back, to no one's surprise, people still didn't like it. I have seen the same reaction with kickstun. People didn't like it, it got removed, devs added it back, and shockingly people still didn't like it.

Duchess 789 3478
  • 1 Jun '18
 Stouty

I really hate the >bik drag >miss >kick as opponent comes in to punish combo

396 453
  • 1 Jun '18
 JasonBourne

Crush said kick is gonna stay the way it is. This is a huge letdown for me but lets hope he will change his mind lateron.

Knight 928 2545
  • 1 Jun '18
 Pred

@JasonBourne said:
Crush said kick is gonna stay the way it is.

Wut?

Knight 685 1852
  • 1 Jun '18
 ÐMontyleGueux

I don't hate it because there is ways to counter it. However as long as there isn't a bash or shove mechanic to replace the old kick, people won't be satisfied with the current kick.

Also please remove the jump kick. It was fun until people figured out how to exploit it during combat.

176 454
  • 1 Jun '18
 Koda

I like kick stun. It buffs offense which is what everyone's been asking for. People said we need extreme drags and ridiculous attack animations because otherwise it would be hard to penetrate a good defense. Now we have another offensive option and people are complaining because they haven't learned how to deal with it yet.

Nobody should be able to beat you by just kick gambling. If a person is in range for a kick, you should either back up or kick. If you do either of these, you're fine. If you fail to react at all to the kick, you get punished very hard.

My main worry though is not about kick stun at all but about posts like this that claim EVERYONE hates something, even though it's just you and maybe a few others. You shouldn't expect the developers to believe you unless you do some kind of strawpoll or something. I could easily make a post that says everyone hates greatsword so remove it, but why should anyone believe me?

252 864
  • 2
  • 1 Jun '18
 Cswic

Kick stun is pathetic. Entire fights can be decided by a single kick because of how powerful the stun is. Oh you're wearing a medium helmet or below? Enjoy losing ~75% of your HP to a single kick and 2hand weapon headshot.

This isn't even mentioning how stupid it is when you have a shorter weapon. Weapons like waraxe, maul, and many of the shorter 1handers such as mace and arming sword all require you to be within kick range when attacking. If someone decides that they just want to back pedal and go for a kick while you close the distance, well too bad. Now your options are to cha-cha-slide on over constantly trying to bait out the kick or at best you get a semi neutral result with a counter kick. Long weapons can avoid these situations much more easily. Rapier, qstaff, bsword, and longer weapons can all stay out of range for the most part if they want.

In general, mechanics that cause a person to lose control of their character tend to be controversial or viewed as un-fun.

1) Part of why people hate/hated rogues in WoW is because of the stuns that remove your ability to fight back.

2) You see people complain about Mei in Overwatch as being a annoying character because she can freeze an opponent to stun them briefly.

3) Same goes for McCree and flashbang which stuns a person for a second.

These are not examples that match kick stun 100% but they all share the common thread of stun.

252 864
  • 1 Jun '18
 Cswic

@Koda said:
It buffs offense which is what everyone's been asking for. People said we need extreme drags and ridiculous attack animations because otherwise it would be hard to penetrate a good defense.

My main worry though is not about kick stun at all but about posts like this that claim EVERYONE hates something, even though it's just you and maybe a few others.

He could save others, but not himself.

But yes not everyone likes or hates kick stun. Not everyone thinks offense needs to be buffed. Not everyone thinks xyz.

Duke 2266 4009
  • 1 Jun '18
 Huggles

@Stauxie said:
The main thing about kickstun in it's current state is revolving around gambling to get a free hit. You can revolve a playstyle around doing gamble mixups with kicks and using a hard hitting weapon to deal out damage that would've been difficult to get, but it's free. Patch 14 kick was fine to many peoples standards, yet it was changed to this. It now is just another offensive attack rather than a tool used to deter facehuggers. Being easy to counter isn't really the point in this if the reward for gambling a kick is so great.

Overall, I just want to know why it should be kept.

After-thought: When riposte feint was a thing, people didn't like it, and it was removed. Devs decided to bring it back, to no one's surprise, people still didn't like it. I have seen the same reaction with kickstun. People didn't like it, it got removed, devs added it back, and shockingly people still didn't like it.

I agree. I thought I would like kick stun more with all the changes they made since its original implementation, and I do like it more text but definitely not compared to patch 14 kick. It is just a gamble kick. For it to be useful and not OP with stun it would have to be much shorter but faster. Crush said that this would give it phantom range or something that he can't fix so the next best bet is just patch 14 kick.

It was actually useful as a tool back then, not just 50/50.

Knight 928 2545
  • 1 Jun '18
 Pred

I don't kick at all because I thought it was 100% being removed so there's no point in abusing broken shit. I'm pretty baffled it's stying tbh.

Unless arms are no longer kickable, then maybe it will be a little better, but I dunno, I'm not a fan of anything it brings to the game and I'm also not a fan of it not doing what many people would want it to do, ie. GET PEOPLE OFF MY FACE.

TFW you miss the Chivalry kick every day.

Duke 2266 4009
  • 1 Jun '18
 Huggles

@Cswic said:
In general, mechanics that cause a person to lose control of their character tend to be controversial or viewed as un-fun.

1) Part of why people hate/hated rogues in WoW is because of the stuns that remove your ability to fight back.

2) You see people complain about Mei in Overwatch as being a annoying character because she can freeze an opponent to stun them briefly.

3) Same goes for McCree and flashbang which stuns a person for a second.

These are not examples that match kick stun 100% but they all share the common thread of stun.

I don't think it is the idea of stunning alone. I think it is mainly the idea that the stun was unavoidable. The reach of kick currently certainly gives that idea. Stunning in games should be confined to very specific scenarios that without the stun would have been cancerous. However, these scenarios should always be avoidable.

Duke 2266 4009
  • 1 Jun '18
 Huggles

@Pred said:
I don't kick at all because I thought it was 100% being removed so there's no point in abusing broken shit. I'm pretty baffled it's stying tbh.

Unless arms are no longer kickable, then maybe it will be a little better, but I dunno, I'm not a fan of anything it brings to the game and I'm also not a fan of it not doing what many people would want it to do, ie. GET PEOPLE OFF MY FACE.

TFW you miss the Chivalry kick every day.

? The chivalry kick was designed to get people out of your face and it did in addition to being used offensively to keep initiative. People gambled with it all the time to get free initiative back while also dealing stam damage. Chivalry kick was very cancerous and obnoxious. It was unavoidable and very easy to do.

Why should kick be used to get out of your face? It isn't like it is just a button press and that's it. It is counterable and a skilled and aggressive facehugger could bypass it especially in patch 14

Duke 2266 4009
  • 1 Jun '18
 Huggles

@Koda said:

My main worry though is not about kick stun at all but about posts like this that claim EVERYONE hates something, even though it's just you and maybe a few others.

Of course "everyone" is hyperbolic, but what it usually means is a solid majority of people dislike the mechanic. Even strawpolls are kind of shotty at truly figuring it out tho. It's just going off of anecdotally talking to people in game, discord, and steam chat. The only way the poll could be scientific is if there was some in game poll that probed peoples experiences while playing the game. But you would get a lot of people who have no clue what they are doing giving feedback so I feel like that would be bad too.

Really you just have to allow the core community (the people on discord, forums, and in clans) talk about the game like we're doing now. Most of the active good players don't really like kick atm.

1309 2875
  • 1 Jun '18
 Monsteri

The stun is better. It leads to more grounded gameplay in teamfights and gives you bik 1vX potential.

Duke 2266 4009
  • 1 Jun '18
 Huggles

@Monsteri said:
The stun is better. It leads to more grounded gameplay in teamfights and gives you bik 1vX potential.

How can you deny that it is extremely gambly tho?

Baron 1551 2085
  • 1 Jun '18
 yourcrippledson

If the devs would confirm if they are adding a bash or something to replace what kick was supposed to be, then we could stop making this topic and pointlessly having the same discussions over and over and over for months.

1309 2875
  • 1 Jun '18
 Monsteri

@Huggles said:

@Monsteri said:
The stun is better. It leads to more grounded gameplay in teamfights and gives you bik 1vX potential.

How can you deny that it is extremely gambly tho?

It's not gambly except if you gamble with it. You're supposed to use it when the enemy has mispositioned without initiative bad enough that they can't escape in time, not when they're simply being aggressive or moving toward you. It is kinda niche, I'd remove the arm hits and make the windup slightly faster with a more obvious animation to remove the bullshit cases and make it a more consistent mechanic. Add a shoulder bash to deal with braindead facehug.

Mercenary 179 612
  • 1
  • 1 Jun '18
 Stauxie

While it can be used to punish bad positioning, it does reward you greatly for gambling a kick and successfully connecting. 15 damage + stam damage + headshot from any weapon. The main way this gamble kick is used is to feint/chamber feint someone while closing distance and kicking as they attempt to counter it in some way. People wouldn't try to do this if kick stun wasn't a thing, because there is just no reason. Because of the kickstun you can have playstyles that revolve around doing this or something like it. It doesn't really become a utility, it becomes more of an offensive move that can mitigate the downside of some hard-hitting weapons.

If they are going to keep the kickstun, it has to be on a slow, heavy kick. Having the light kick as an option to use as well.

Baron 1551 2085
  • 1 Jun '18
 yourcrippledson

And look at t hat we have come to the same conclusion yet again. Devs? Say something?