Mordhau

Tracers and Waterfalls

Duke 2266 4007
  • 3
  • 25 May '18
 Huggles

Titles are hard and I'm not sure how to name what I want to talk about here. I'm going to talk about tracers a little in preparation for the new attack curve, but I'm specifically honing in on what is called a waterfall. A waterfall for anyone who is unfamiliar with it, is basically an overhead attack that lands on the opposite side you started from.

Here is a video showing it off in Mordhau

Here is a video showing it off in Chivalry

Here is what the tracer looks like in Mordhau:

M Messer Waterfall.jpg

M Halberd Waterfall.jpg

Here is what it looked like in Chivalry

Waterfall Messer.jpg

Waterfall Halberd.jpg

The waterfall is still certainly possible in mordhau. A bit less consistent to accomplish and takes much more footwork and precision, perhaps. But it is still there. These extra hassles do make it more skillful but in turn also makes it less accessible. Generally, you don't want the skill gap to be so polarizing that new players can't even use certain techniques that good players do. Also, most newer players think it looks odd when they are on the receiving end of it.


The Idea

What I would like to see happen is when you begin to turn away from the preset tracer path in mordhau, instead of the game fighting you on this the animation slightly adjusts and the curve goes the other way. I'm not entirely sure if this idea is possible, but I think it would definitely make attacks feel better to use and it would make the waterfall attack look better and be easier to identify. It would also add a more reliable way to trick direction that does not look bad.

Really I think the biggest frustration in mordhau is just a lack of control over your tracer in general. And it is by far the cause of the majority of tracers.

I doubt this will be a priority for the devs atm as the main mode, maps, and all other sorts of content will definitely rank way higher on priorities than this. But it would be interesting to explore post-release. Also we are not even sure how the new curves and tracers will affect waterfalls, so I will make sure to update this post when we have that in.


TL;DR

I want waterfalls to be a little bit more telegraphed, look better, more consistent and streamlined, and all in all feel like an officially supported mechanic.

Knight 1269 3804
  • 25 May '18
 Frise

The waterfalls that Wizardish showed are not the normal ones that were seen a lot in chiv; He facehugs the enemy and starts the overhead already on the opposite side, basically entering release already behind their parry "box". It's way less readable and more consistent in my experience, thought it does require you to facehug. I'm not sure what my opinion is on it because noboyd here in SA does it except for me, so I haven't seen it from a personal perspective. It does look like it would be way more confusing and unintuitive for the receiver though.

As to regular ol' waterfalls, I think this is really something not worth discussing before the release changes. What made waterfalls more inconsistent for me was the 5%, and since it's getting removed, they should be rewarding now. The release animation responding to your mouse movements, as you suggested, honestly seems like way too complicated of an idea for this. If this kind of dragging needed more freedom, the thing where overheads curve into a horizontal at the end of release could be removed instead, to fill that purpose.

You mentioned a lack of control over release, and I do see why you do; I tried chiv again a few times just to compare it, and what gives you a big sense of control there is the speed of everything. Release animations are super slow and the windows are huge, which gives you a lot of time to footwork, drag, and even think a lot, all during your opponent's or your own release. Although I do miss this, I don't think it's something that Mordhau should strive to accomplish; I think that it's good for it to aim for a more fast-paced direction.

This is something that is not worth exploring before the release changes, in my opinion.

301 875
  • 25 May '18
 Naleaus

I don't care too much what happens to them, but making adjustments just to make one drag easier to perform seems like a bad idea. It also wouldn't affect most of the waterfalls that I do, or even the ones in Wizardish's video. We hardly drag them, just aim and footwork. Making them easier to actually drag leads to the silly looking ones.

Ideally, I think you'd want a few moves that ARE hard to do, as it gives an incentive for a new player to practice and adds another area where skill can be distinguished.

Duke 2266 4007
  • 25 May '18
 Huggles

@Frise said:
The waterfalls that Wizardish showed are not the normal ones that were seen a lot in chiv; He facehugs the enemy and starts the overhead already on the opposite side, basically entering release already behind their parry "box". It's way less readable and more consistent in my experience, thought it does require you to facehug. I'm not sure what my opinion is on it because noboyd here in SA does it except for me, so I haven't seen it from a personal perspective. It does look like it would be way more confusing and unintuitive for the receiver though.

As to regular ol' waterfalls, I think this is really something not worth discussing before the release changes. What made waterfalls more inconsistent for me was the 5%, and since it's getting removed, they should be rewarding now. The release animation responding to your mouse movements, as you suggested, honestly seems like way too complicated of an idea for this. If this kind of dragging needed more freedom, the thing where overheads curve into a horizontal at the end of release could be removed instead, to fill that purpose.

You mentioned a lack of control over release, and I do see why you do; I tried chiv again a few times just to compare it, and what gives you a big sense of control there is the speed of everything. Release animations are super slow and the windows are huge, which gives you a lot of time to footwork, drag, and even think a lot, all during your opponent's or your own release. Although I do miss this, I don't think it's something that Mordhau should strive to accomplish; I think that it's good for it to aim for a more fast-paced direction.

This is something that is not worth exploring before the release changes, in my opinion.

the 5% doesn't seem to matter if u look at the tracer. Where 5% would be applied is already way way into miss range if you look at the tracer for the waterfall.

I think the lack of control is the set "path" that the tracer has for overhead that works against waterfalls in general. It wants to move from right to left and it actually does no matter what you do.

Floatier attacks do feel more controllable, ya, but the tracer working against you is mostly what I am talking about here.

Knight 29 63
  • 25 May '18
 NachoAU

You can not advertise moves like waterfalls heavily because it is a massive turn off for hema and realism autists, ie people still complaining about drags and feints. Waterfalls would never be a consistent factor in Mordhau due to the completely different overhead animation from chiv and while your idea is interesting, it would never be implemented because of animation / control issues (like how directional morphs were shut down and thus resulting them being set input angles.) Also you might want to ditch that ini fov exploit, as it will most definitely be patched out (surprised it hasn't been fixed yet.)

Duke 2266 4007
  • 25 May '18
 Huggles

? the move itself is probably more rooted in realism than drags and how feints work lol.

The idea would make it more like a morph but not rly a morph that goes around/behind the parry. Which is more in line with how combat works than tricking timing. So I don' think it is unrealistic at all.

Animation and control issues sounds like a more legitimate criticism however. Me addressing that in this post would be pure theory-crafting nonsense I have nothing to base off of in the actual game. But the devs could find a way, you never know. Post is just food for thought any hoot.

Also I have no fov exploit. This is just 130 fov. The camera isn't even -15 either.

Knight 29 63
  • 25 May '18
 NachoAU

Like I said your idea is interesting but I couldn't really see a smooth way to implement it, especially when there are lots of players that use binds instead of 240 directional.

Are you playing on a stretched res or one that is not 1920x1080? Stretched resolutions give extremely higher fov in Mordhau

301 875
  • 25 May '18
 Naleaus

@Huggles said:
Also I have no fov exploit. This is just 130 fov. The camera isn't even -15 either.

Probably talking about Wiz's video, 4:3 resolutions give a better view of your sides compared to typical 16:9. It was like that in Chiv too.

Duke 2266 4007
  • 25 May '18
 Huggles

@NachoAU said:
Like I said your idea is interesting but I couldn't really see a smooth way to implement it, especially when there are lots of players that use binds instead of 240 directional.

Are you playing on a stretched res or one that is not 1920x1080? Stretched resolutions give extremely higher fov in Mordhau

I use binds, don't think that is the main concern. The way I imagine it is the animation would adjust during the beginning of release. So the input scheme wouldn't matter at all for how I see it.

Knight 693 1593
  • 25 May '18
 das

@Naleaus said:
I don't care too much what happens to them, but making adjustments just to make one drag easier to perform seems like a bad idea.

Ideally, I think you'd want a few moves that ARE hard to do, as it gives an incentive for a new player to practice and adds another area where skill can be distinguished.

I feel the same way.

I don't use too much advanced manipulations myself at the moment (I'll need practice), but I am pretty impressed when I see how effective (albeit situational) they can be against good players. Gameplay wise, they're pretty neat. They're situational and are actually quite risky when used outside of ideal situations because they tend to be easier to sidestep or matrix, but they can be an excellent mixup when the enemy is cornered or just backpedaling/crouch parrying /chamberboi'ing everything. The only "problem" is that sometimes they do look rather unintuitive, unfortunately - it's already hard for me to tell whether I died by missing parrying or because of mistiming/ping, so I have to sometimes ask my enemy if they waterfall/wessex frise'd (where does the term wessex come from?) me or not.

Knight 30 160
  • 25 May '18
 Comeandsee

Screenshot-2018-5-25 Changelog Thread - Alpha Build #16 1 05 2018(2).png

reward bad aim, footwork, reading

punish creative and skillful footwork, reading, swingmanipulation

Mordhau.

Baron 1551 2083
  • 5
  • 25 May '18
 yourcrippledson

I think I basically agree with Huggles.. I want drags to be fun as drugs. And be capable of being useful on their own. Meaning a perfectly executed drag with a well-masked animation should conceivably be able to land hits on similarly skilled opponents with some frequency, without needing a feint or morph or chamber involved.

@Naleaus said:
It also wouldn't affect most of the waterfalls that I do, or even the ones in Wizardish's video. We hardly drag them, just aim and footwork.

Is this perspective from that of purely/primarily a messer wielder? Because that weapon to me seems like one of the best for stuff like this. They feel like poop on most weapons imo, messer and longsword being some of the better ones, axes seem pretty decent too.

Plus if we get a "bash/shove-mechanic", the ones you see Wiz doing, requiring massive facehuggery, would be nearly impossible on good peeps. Maybe that is why we have nothing to counteract facehuggery?

Ideally, I think you'd want a few moves that ARE hard to do, as it gives an incentive for a new player to practice and adds another area where skill can be distinguished.

Ideally you want as many interesting and fun moves available to intermediately skilled players as possible.

Knight 528 3376
  • 1
  • 25 May '18
 rob_owner

doing this in mordhau is actually waaaaaay easier than doing it in chiv. The parry is more consistently exploitable. In chiv youre up against a parrybox that is only really more exploitable on the side of the weapon where the stab comes out of. There is literally less parrybox there, and if your windup travels through their parry windup, it doesnt matter where it lands, it will parry.

You also dont need to aim at the weapon, you parry looking at the sky, looking at god so its easier to pray that your parry wont desync. Mordhau has none of that, its extremely easy to get through a parry in mordhau compared to Chiv.

They even made it easier to bypass through the top of the head. Looking at headheight is exploitable, looking slightly up, slightly down, etc. They have their different ways to maneuver and bypass around the parry. In chiv you mostly just try to outlast the parry or make them panic parry early so you can pseudodrag

It would be great to have them more telegraphed. There are cases where you can either hit the top of the head or the legs. Both go through the parry if you parry at headheight. Parrying at the sky exposes your legs. Parrying at the legs exposes your sky. Its a GNARLY thing that I dont think many people are aware of. Not the ones wiz was doing, im talking about one like this

Duke 2266 4007
  • 2
  • 25 May '18
 Huggles

@rob_owner said:
doing this in mordhau is actually waaaaaay easier than doing it in chiv. The parry is more consistently exploitable. In chiv youre up against a parrybox that is only really more exploitable on the side of the weapon where the stab comes out of. There is literally less parrybox there, and if your windup travels through their parry windup, it doesnt matter where it lands, it will parry.

You also dont need to aim at the weapon, you parry looking at the sky, looking at god so its easier to pray that your parry wont desync. Mordhau has none of that, its extremely easy to get through a parry in mordhau compared to Chiv.

They even made it easier to bypass through the top of the head. Looking at headheight is exploitable, looking slightly up, slightly down, etc. They have their different ways to maneuver and bypass around the parry. In chiv you mostly just try to outlast the parry or make them panic parry early so you can pseudodrag

It would be great to have them more telegraphed. There are cases where you can either hit the top of the head or the legs. Both go through the parry if you parry at headheight. Parrying at the sky exposes your legs. Parrying at the legs exposes your sky. Its a GNARLY thing that I dont think many people are aware of. Not the ones wiz was doing, im talking about one like this

Well the thread isn't really me complaining about waterfalls not working. I do them fine and I love them and am effective with them. It's mainly about the visuals and inconsistency of doing them. Generally speaking it would not feel very good for more casual players or really even veteran players who just aren't mordhau gods to get killed by something they cannot replicate and something that looks odd when it kills them.

In an alpha filled with basically entirely chivalry vets, very few people are doing waterfalls. Even comp players. When they DO happen it looks odd for a while for many new players. It looked odd to me and I don't really complain about how the game looks that much at all. I just want waterfalls to be more consistent and intuitive to preform and look better.

If foot drags are way too easy and skill less to preform than I think waterfalls are kind of the opposite extreme of this because the game is fighting you when you preform it.

And I definitely acknowledge your point about chiv's parry being a joke in comparison, though perhaps with the exception of being stabbed directly in the side.

1094 1726

italicised textAll I did in Chivalry was waterfall but I cannot yet do that here in Mordhau even with 100 or so hours. In Chivalry I learned side stabs/ side overheads, etc very early on because that's what felt natural and I learned such moves before I even knew that drags/reverses existed. Side hits and their more advanced waterfall cousins are simply how one would intuitively get around parry if there were no such thing as delay/accel drags, right?

I havent earnestly played Mordhau in a few weeks, I never have fun when I come on and my pc overheats alot when playing games lately... If I had any fun playing Mordhau, however, my pc would have been fixed already so I can get back into it. However, I only really have fun dueling when I'm lucky enough to fight someone using a shield. Otherwise, it doesn't feel right when I attempt something so basic as a side stab/overhead and were it not for people like Naleus I wouldn't even know waterfalls were possible in this game. But why would you want to use waterfalls in this game anyways? Delay drags are alot more effective and I guess Mordhau's waterfalls take too time to learn even for a lvl 58 player on Chivalry like myself. Ironically the waterfalls in Chivalry looked better tbh, the ones here look sketchy.

It's sad because I thought this game would be about celebrating the intuitive sortof drags such as waterfalls and side hits and shunning the drag/accel guessing game that encourages you to do anything in your power to scare an opponent into parrying too early or cautioning him into parrying/chambering too late. This game is just Chivalry but now it's gonna take hundreds of hours to do what felt natural in Chiv and 5 minutes to effectively use what I refused to use and took longer to learn in Chivalry(drags/instahits.)

I mean, you have to admit it's really funny and ironic. To land an accel (no back tracers) in Chivalry required a good setup and preparation. To land an accel using backtracers required hundreds of hours of practice and still required a good set up and preparation. Dragging without telegraphing it required even more practice in my opinion. But in Mordhau pretty much every weapon can effectively insta-hit with no preparation/set up AND THERE'S NOT EVEN BACK TRACERS. I'm amazed at how often my Zwei will overhead riposte right into someone who knows I'm gonna riposte lol Prolly worried I was gonna drag at the last second and couldn't beat ping when they decided to input. Git gud scrub. Same for drags. Most weapons can drag with ease and if they're too fast they still got morphs, micro feints, hit recovery and those nasty insta hits will scare you into blocking/chambering early anyways. You learn those moves right off the bat in Mordhau but it's gonna take you hundreds of hours to learn waterfalls even if you already knew how to do them in Chiv.

I told everyone on PS4 when I got this game that I was quitting Chivalry, that's how confident in Mordhau I was. But I get made fun of and roasted every day by ps4 peeps for still playing lol I have much more fun dealing with Chiv's bullshit and drags/reverses are much easier to read ironically. Even on Chiv pc duelyards where people put thousands of hours into learning how to drag/reverse and I encountered my first wessex drags I still kick ass or at least hold my own. Whatever, I'm still going to get dismissed as a noob who complains about drags that needs to git gud.

Baron 1551 2083
  • 25 May '18
 yourcrippledson

@Lionheart Chevalier said:
But in Mordhau pretty much every weapon can effectively insta-hit with no preparation/set up AND THERE'S NOT EVEN BACK TRACERS. I'm amazed at how often my Zwei will overhead riposte right into someone who knows I'm gonna riposte lol Prolly worried I was gonna drag at the last second and couldn't beat ping when they decided to input. Git gud scrub.

I totally agree with this. I find it is actually easier to just do 100% accel overheads and wait for my opponent to gamble that I feint or drag. I just have slightly better reaction time. Most effective strategy I've come across. Hence why I haven't bothered to play in as long as you.

Knight 528 3376
  • 25 May '18
 rob_owner

Its probably easier for you to hit around a random joe's parry in chiv because it was so easy to parry. Effort was low, confidence high.

Consider it. "Oh I just have to stare at sky". It is true but it builds a LAZY habit and is not transferable to Mordhau. Its easier to hit around parries in mordhau because there is less parry box than chiv, and its consistent. Theres no desync. It is easier in that respect, its Harder because if you want to parry, you have to try. You have to put more effort into it. You are more aware of your parrying. One of the ways i'd hit around parries in chiv during 5v5s relied in me knowing the guy I was hitting liked to bestow his faith upon the sky god during parries so I could do some over the top side attack to ensure it would work, and also recognizing the strange flash of recovery animation that would play randomly when you parry someone, where if someone parries during it, attacks go through the parry. No clue how many people noticed that besides me.

Most people in chiv couldnt tell if they were hitting around a parry or just out-lasting it. Its easy in chiv because there is literally less parrybox on the stab-side of whatever weapon, and people dont try as hard to follow the weapon to parry. (Parry also sometimes just desyncs, you can tell this happens when you lose turncap)

The games are different, when I say its easier in mordhau, its because I can explain why it should be easier in the gameplay and the reasons for it are greater than in chiv. If its not easy, its probably because whoever I fight stops me from exploiting the reasons why it should be (if I have complete confidence in my ability to hit around a parry). The same is true for chivalry.

It took me a long time to figure out how to do much of anything in Chiv, I didn't care. There were always secrets to find in chivalry because of the freedom in combat and abundance of bugs. I went into mordhau with that same thought, and was given the same results except I found almost no bugs that were not already known. All my chiv hours really did was wise me up to what I needed to pay attention to in order to learn faster and find weird tricks.

301 875
  • 25 May '18
 Naleaus

@Lionheart Chevalier said:
You learn those moves right off the bat in Mordhau but it's gonna take you hundreds of hours to learn waterfalls even if you already knew how to do them in Chiv.

Not going into the rest of your post cause it's your opinion and that's fine, but going to use this part to rant a bit. Not about you specifically, but this sort of mindset.

So one thing I've seen from the beginning of alpha that's annoyed me, is that players that come from Chivalry will complain about not being able to do something the way they did in Chivalry, then assume it can't be done at all. This is mostly not true at all, except where it's done by design (reverse overheads, etc).

Waterfalls don't work the same as in Chivalry, attempting to do them the same way will just make you miss. But obviously they're still possible, and they work on most weapons. Same for footwork, matrixing, stab drags, etc. You just have to do them differently, and they may not be as effective, but they're still there and have some use.

This is after all a different game than Chivalry. Expecting it to play the same and for playstyles to carry over without having to change at all is strange to me. Maybe it's cause I started Chivalry at release when everyone was shit and spent a long time exploring what was possible that gives me a different mindset.

Whatever it is, the game has plenty to offer besides accels and delays. And on the topic of accels, tracers/animations are being changed and the 5% is being removed from the end of release, so as has been mentioned before, this topic is a bit moot. Once that happens, I'll be trying new stuff to see what's possible.

301 875
  • 25 May '18
 Naleaus

@rob_owner said:
It took me a long time to figure out how to do much of anything in Chiv, I didn't care. There were always secrets to find in chivalry because of the freedom in combat and abundance of bugs. I went into mordhau with that same thought, and was given the same results except I found almost no bugs that were not already known. All my chiv hours really did was wise me up to what I needed to pay attention to in order to learn faster and find weird tricks.

Damnit Rob, don't post similar shit before me.

1094 1726

Main thing to take away from my rant:

I came in expecting everything to be different but it's actually kinda the same :/ People still parry my side hits without even looking at them (Infuriating) and I'm still getting smacked when trying to decide if something is a drag/accel. Chivalry's waterfalls looked natural and were intuitive to use/defend against but Mordhau's look weird, confusing and are difficult to perform. They're unintuitive.

I hope the upcoming animations/tracer changes makes waterfalls more natural looking and intuitive to pull off. I would also like parry made more strict in regards to parry angle/direction and side hits made more viable.