Mordhau

Please REMOVE

Baron 1601 5082
  • 16 May '18
 Lincs

REMOVE

-3rd person
why: literally nobody asked for it and it adds nothing to this FIRST PERSON game
at the very least make it a toggle-able option for community servers and disable it on official servers

-kick stun
why: it's the chivalry kick, basically. the one you guys said you were going to improve on
the original kick in mordhau was good for interrupting attacks without being overly annoying or broken, now it's just godawful and the worst shit ever

-hit trades
why: the fuck did you add hit trades to mordhau
active parry was a much more intuitive and less face-desking mechanic
also, this furthers the extreme neglect of chambers and clashes, fundamentally some of the most interesting and revolutionary mechanics in mordhau and the most fun to do. they occur less often now that there's such an emphasis on the boring parry and riposte meta

-jump kicks
why: this is an actual bug, and for some reason you guys have said you have no intention to fix it in the forseeable future. WHY.

may add more things to remove over time
please remove these very bad, no good, ugly things from our mordhau. thanks

Knight 79 157
  • 1
  • 16 May '18
 Netherim

Is there anything objectively wrong with 3rd person? It doesn't give that much of advantage, but will definitely increase the playerbase which is actually interested in that way of view (some M&B fans or so).
"active parry was a much more intuitive" lol rly?)) Active parry was inconsistent and was looking horrible for the attacker ( like when you trying to attack your opponent, but he chambers/riposte from your teammate and your attack just SUDDENLY stops on invisible wall ) so yea, riposte hit trades feels miles better and much more intuitive imho.
Can't say anything about kick jumping and kick-stun however, maybe it should be considered ¯ \ (ツ) / ¯

Knight 334 777
  • 16 May '18
 AngelEyes

@Netherim said:
Is there anything objectively wrong with 3rd person? It doesn't give that much of advantage, but will definitely increase the playerbase which is actually interested in that way of view (some M&B fans or so).

Gonna have to flat out oppose you on that one. M&B is my most played game on steam and for one it helps me read better in Mordhau because it gives the illusion I am further away from my opponent so as not to parry panic like a crack fiend like I do. I however do not use 3pp in Mordhau because it feels like the game was designed around 1st. Likewise, no one plays 1st in Warband because the game clearly is meant to be played in 3rd.( Unless of course just poking around in single player or mounted combat.) It's for the devs to decide if this is something objectively wrong with that and how they designed this game to be played.

However 3pp does give an objectively gargantuan advantage in Team Fights. I don't think I need to go into detail as to why.

As for Jump-kick. I think it's derp, especially a guy in full plate doing it. If it's to stay either make it a perk for FULL light armour or something. Most of all It's basically a bug, I don't even know how to do it neither have I taken the pains to even simply ask someone, that's because I'm not convinced for a second that it's going to stay the way it is right now.

Baron 1551 2083
  • 5
  • 16 May '18
 yourcrippledson

I am mostly indifferent to these suggestions, with the exception that I believe hit trades to be better than AP in almost all aspects.
And I dislike 3rd person.

@Netherim said:
Is there anything objectively wrong with 3rd person?

@yourcrippledson said:
well this is kina gey

Hiding around a corner with a 1 shot weapon. gey. Imma do this a lot if they keep 3rd person as it is, just out of spite.

Look he is still there when I come back. 3rd person invites this style of gameplay. It is rewarding and effective as it is cancerous.

Posted this in another thread. I still feel the same. I guess locking some servers to 1st would partially solve this issue without pissing off the 3rdies

Knight 651 994
  • 16 May '18
 VampireDuck

@Netherim said:
Is there anything objectively wrong with 3rd person? It doesn't give that much of advantage

imo third person's biggest advantage is in team fights. It gives you much more situational awareness as you can see a lot more of whats going on around you and attacks that you wouldn't see coming in first person you can see in third. Plus it negates one of the draw-backs to shields completely which is the amount they block your vision in first person; in third using a shield doesn't affect what you can see at all.

@Netherim said:
but will definitely increase the playerbase which is actually interested in that way of view (some M&B fans or so).

Yes a bigger player base is good but is it worth compromising the integrity of the game? honestly I would be content with it being only 1st in official servers and competitive matches while allowing 3rd in non-official servers, which I think is a decent compromise.

Empress 362 853
  • 16 May '18
 Soulcatcher

Remove third? no

How are we supposed to get drunk off our faces, go third to admire our sexy beefcake warriors, enjoy watching our characters as we spam Mordhaus gorgeous emotes and (future) voice commands when we can't be fucked playing the game properly?

Example

Seriously though, the third person in Mord doesn't seem like it offers any real advantages over first at all, sure you can see around a bit better, but that's heavily outweighed by how much dexterity and often vision of where strikes from someone infront of you are coming from. It's pretty alright really.

fuck kicks

fuck trades

fuck jump kicks

Knight 26 83
  • 1
  • 17 May '18
 GucciLoafers
  1. 3rd person is personal preference, Triternion have made it in such a way that it is not overpowered like in Chivalry (you are locked to above the head view and can't see behind you). There is no point of removing this, all it does is add more options for players to play the game.

  2. Kick stun was re-implemented to discourage face-hug play-styles which are intrinsic to styles adopted from Chivalry's top tier combat, something they were trying to avoid. This is also the same reason why the character bubble is slightly larger. Without the stun, from experience, players were not phased at all by adopting a face-hug style into their fights, some would say it was even encouraged. It has been refined over many updates and currently sits in a good balance of difficulty versus reward.

  3. Hit trades off ripostes, before we start on this, let's talk about why active parry was implemented and why it got removed. Active parry was implemented from day one as a mechanic to make 1vX situations a little bit more friendly for the 1. The problem with it was that after 14 or 15 patches (I don't remember) it still wasn't in a good spot and every high tier player I met disliked it for it's inconsistency and unintuitive nature. It had little indication of when an active parry would occur which in turn made it less desirable for the X to focus on the timing of their strikes. Hit trades off of riposte is a substitute for active parry, it allows for the 1 in 1vX to have a smoother fight as well as making the X have to commit to strikes. Why make it easier to 1vX? That's simple, when Mordhau launches, there will no doubt be lot's of new players running around the battlefield, without hit trades off ripostes coupled with damage reduction, new players would have a hard time getting any kills against good players. Something that Chivalry struggled with was the discouraging nature of it's skill cap. Not to say that Mordhau is an unskilled game, it's just a better experience for both new players and skilled veterans, it forces the veterans to not get bored and stay alert, and it gives new players short term gratification to keep playing the game.

  4. Jump kick is a bug and will be fixed.

Baron 1551 2083
  • 17 May '18
 yourcrippledson

@GucciLoafers said:

  1. 3rd person is personal preference, Triternion have made it in such a way that it is not overpowered like in Chivalry (you are locked to above the head view and can't see behind you). There is no point of removing this, all it does is add more options for players to play the game.

I like playing in 1st person. but I play in 3rd in team fights. It isn't a "personal preference" it is so I can do better. I would rather have an even playing field with everyone in 1st so I can play in 1st, like the game has been designed to play, without feeling like I am at a disadvantage...

Knight 26 83
  • 17 May '18
 GucciLoafers

I would argue that 3rd person is actually much of a hindrance to high level play due to the player model being in the way forcing you to look at the ground to see your opponent.

Baron 1551 2083
  • 17 May '18
 yourcrippledson

@GucciLoafers said:
I would argue that 3rd person is actually much of a hindrance to high level play due to the player model being in the way forcing you to look at the ground to see your opponent.

https://giphy.com/gifs/request-donald-wrong-hPPx8yk3Bmqys/tile

Knight 26 83
  • 17 May '18
 GucciLoafers

Explain

Duke 2266 4007
  • 1
  • 17 May '18
 Huggles

medieval-splinted-etched-greaves-leg-armor-sca-reenactment-stainless

woops, wrong tab, lmao

Knight 762 3296
  • 2
  • 17 May '18
 Mittsies

@Lincs said:
REMOVE

-3rd person

I'd make it so if you attack or parry you're forced back into 1st person, but you can go 3rd person to look at your guy and do emotes (great for streamers and spectators). However serious / competitive / ranked modes should probably disable 3rd person completely, for obvious reasons.

-kick stun

yes remove. landing kicks is already inherently rewarding as it's a free attack that drains stamina from your opponent. if kicks are not strong enough without the stun, they can be tweaked and re-balanced accordingly, but conceptually the stun is dumb.

-hit trades

yes remove. total absence of hit-trades was one of my favorite things about mordhau. it seems like an experimental change that has severely overstayed it's welcome.

-jump kicks

either remove it or rework it into a less janky mechanic.

Baron 1551 2083
  • 17 May '18
 yourcrippledson

@Mittsies said:
yes remove. total absence of hit-trades was one of my favorite things about mordhau. it seems like an experimental change that has severely overstated it's welcome.

This is an overstatement

Baron 1601 5082
  • 17 May '18
 Lincs

@GucciLoafers said:

  1. 3rd person is personal preference, Triternion have made it in such a way that it is not overpowered like in Chivalry (you are locked to above the head view and can't see behind you). There is no point of removing this, all it does is add more options for players to play the game.

That said, there's no place for it in competitive play. It goes against the design of the game and the previously expressed intentions of the devs. I don't think anyone minds it for casual pubs and custom servers, so you can stroke your ego over your fancy kniggas, but in more serious play it should be locked.

I like the suggestion someone made above to enable third person for emotes, though the camera would need to be limited some more to prevent seeing around corners and all that.

  1. Kick stun was re-implemented to discourage face-hug play-styles which are intrinsic to styles adopted from Chivalry's top tier combat, something they were trying to avoid. This is also the same reason why the character bubble is slightly larger. Without the stun, from experience, players were not phased at all by adopting a face-hug style into their fights, some would say it was even encouraged. It has been refined over many updates and currently sits in a good balance of difficulty versus reward.

Firstly, that's entirely your opinion. Mine is that kicks are entirely too easy to abuse when paired with a fast weapon, making facehugging even more viable than before in the right hands. There's no hard counter to kick stun spam either; kick chambering merely cancels the other kick out with no reward for being fast enough to block the attacker's kick with your own.

Introducing stun on kick seems like a slapdash bandage to the problem, instead of tweaking the balance of the original kick.

  1. Hit trades off ripostes, before we start on this, let's talk about why active parry was implemented and why it got removed. Active parry was implemented from day one as a mechanic to make 1vX situations a little bit more friendly for the 1. The problem with it was that after 14 or 15 patches (I don't remember) it still wasn't in a good spot and every high tier player I met disliked it for it's inconsistency and unintuitive nature. It had little indication of when an active parry would occur which in turn made it less desirable for the X to focus on the timing of their strikes. Hit trades off of riposte is a substitute for active parry, it allows for the 1 in 1vX to have a smoother fight as well as making the X have to commit to strikes. Why make it easier to 1vX? That's simple, when Mordhau launches, there will no doubt be lot's of new players running around the battlefield, without hit trades off ripostes coupled with damage reduction, new players would have a hard time getting any kills against good players. Something that Chivalry struggled with was the discouraging nature of it's skill cap. Not to say that Mordhau is an unskilled game, it's just a better experience for both new players and skilled veterans, it forces the veterans to not get bored and stay alert, and it gives new players short term gratification to keep playing the game.

There were numerous proposed solutions to giving active parry visual or audio cues. Again, hit trades seem like a slap dash solution to a complex problem that leaves a large part of the community feeling alienated by the dev team. They deliberately advertised in the combat dev blog and on the forums that goofy mechanics like hit trading would be forgone for clashes and parries, to preserve the look, feel and pace of fights.

I know this thread was kind of tongue in cheek, but the reason I made it was because all the things I listed in the OP are things that the devs explicitly stated that they didn't want in the game. It feels like they're taking the lazy approach to tackling some of the finer issues here, and thus reducing the quality of the combat.

Knight 685 1852
  • 17 May '18
 ÐMontyleGueux

3rd person needs to be strictly for admiring your character. Instead of controlling your view, the mouse should let you rotate around your character to admire yourself. 3rd person shouldn't be a viable option to play with.

Jax basically said that ap was a terrible mechanic, but they don't like trades either and are looking into a better option, experimenting with chambers and clashes.

I personally preferred the kick in patch 14 compared to the current kick stun. It's quite frustrating to get kicked now. But I'm not strongly opposed to the kick stun either.

Jump kick looks weird and is an exploit, so I'm not too worried about it. It will surely get either removed or refined.

Baron 1551 2083
  • 4
  • 17 May '18
 yourcrippledson

@ÐMontyleGueux said:
3rd person needs to be strictly for admiring your character. Instead of controlling your view, the mouse should let you rotate around your character to admire yourself. 3rd person shouldn't be a viable option to play with.

8bd0877fde33f787c734ddb042fedad1.png

I would like this for first person only. so you can look around, and your head moves with your camera so It is obvious where you are looking. You can only view your outfit from first person using this, the way a normal human can look down and check themselves out. Because if you could go third person to do this, you can still use it to see around corners.

Being able to do simple things like this enhances my immersion immensely, and is an excellent feature for role playing too.

251 859
  • 5
  • 17 May '18
 Cswic

I always get a kick out of the "jump kick as a concept is bad". Usually because the comments against it are always something like "devs said that it shouldn't be here 8 months ago" or "kick is only meant to be defensive measure".

As far as I know, jump kicks only really started to more commonly appear in the tail end of patch 14. Prior to that you'd just see it every so often as some sort of gimmick that people would be doing in a slow duel server.

Patch 14 was the last patch we had without kick stun. The majority of the time (from what I know) that jump kick has been more popular kick has had stun. This has resulted in a lot hate for jump kick that I think really should be directed at kick stun instead.

Why? Because being stunned by any kick feels like shit. Being stunned by a jump kick feels even worse since you weren't necessarily facehugging or doing a long drag. There is a chance that kick stun will be doing away anyway given this recent comment in discord. "kick stun is probably not needed anymore since the combo followup was made much faster, its almost always a free hit even without stun"

Here is a brief outline of how jump kick would be without stun and why the current "janky" way that jump kick is performed is good in certain ways.

  • No stun of course means the opponent will have a chance to parry the follow up strike if they are fast enough or if the kick follows up too slowly rather than the guaranteed damage it is now. This likely means no more silly jump kick stun -> maul headshot combo since maul is so slow and your opponent will have a decent chance to parry or move. Sames goes for other similarly slow weapons.

  • Jump kick requires you to jump which is 13 stam. Kick deals (15 or 20?) stamina damage + about 15-20 damage on average now that armor types affect kick damage. Net result is that the kicker doesn't get much of an advantage in the stam war due to the stamina cost of jump.

  • The requirement to morph into a jump kick provides some balance. First it means you get a bit of warning because they have to do part of the initial windup before morphing into a kick. Second it means that the slower and harder hitting weapons cost more stamina to jump kick with because of their increased morph costs. The slower weapons benefit more from the increased combo followup after a successful kick since they do more damage. Having to morph to kick also means that there is a timing element to it that the kicker can mess up on resulting in a kick way out of range that can be easily punished. If you could just jump and hit F to kick whenever you wanted the above checks and balances would be lost. I agree that the current way to perform jump kick is not very intuitive, but there are also the positives I mentioned above.

  • A strike ->combo into jump kick - > strike combo is generally harder to avoid than someone just running up and doing a morph jump kick. However due to the required timing you typically have to jump before you even know that your hit your opponent with the first strike. You can't combo without landing the first strike so there are times where you end up jumping only to have your opponent parry your first strike resulting in stam wasted on jumping if you are careless. This bit of balance would also be lost if you could jump and kick freely as the required timing would not longer exist. Like currently I don't think you can do some extreme toe drag with longsword where you hit in the last tiny bit of release and then combo into a kick before of the timing required but I am not certain. I just know that being able to jump and kick freely would enable you to do so.

The positive of devs making jump kick as simple as hitting F and jumping would be the following:

  • more intuitive to perform for everyone
  • could mean it would be balanced separately from general kick
  • this will also mean that jump kicks would probably become more common place as they would be easier to use and would cost less stam in the case of morph jump kicks (assuming there are no additional trade offs put in place to discourage them).

I feel the questions you should ask yourselves are 1) Do you hate jump kicks as a concept or just hate jump kicks with stun? 2) Do you hate jump kicks because you find them difficult to use or perform because of the current way they are performed?

Anyway the above bullet points hopefully help to outline why the current janky way has some balance to it that would be lost or require additional balancing with being able to simply hit jump and F.

Calling it a bug or exploit at this point is sort of reaching given recent dev statements on jump kick. It is more of a gray area now between bug and feature despite being born from a bug. Unintended behavior becoming desired and intended behavior.

Yes I jump kick more than most. You can say I am bias if you want, but it also means I can shed some light on parts of jump kick that people may not have been aware of without using it. No I don't like to be jump kick stunned or kick stunned in general. I hate stun overall and have felt for a while now it shouldn't be on jump kicks or jump kicks removed if kick stun is to remain. Can see the stauxie kick thread for that.

Count 3976 8328
  • 17 May '18
 TheDankestMeme

@Netherim said:
Is there anything objectively wrong with 3rd person?

it is bad because as an opponent you have no idea if the enemy is using third or first person thus making evading view harzardous

also because people just want it because it was in chivalry, pretty much every multiplayer fps/tps games understood the problem i mentionned above

Baron 1551 2083
  • 17 May '18
 yourcrippledson

@TheDankestMeme said:

@Netherim said:
Is there anything objectively wrong with 3rd person?

it is bad because as an opponent you have no idea if the enemy is using third or first person thus making evading view harzardous

also because people just want it because it was in chivalry, pretty much every multiplayer fps/tps games understood the problem i mentionned above

It completely messes with tactics like using the kite shield to block the enemies view of your attacks, which is literally all kite is good for.