Mordhau

Waterfall & Chamber Footwork Examples

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  • 3
  • 16 May '18
 wizardish

These clips were put together fairly quickly and against players not who are not necessarily top tier (the exception being Shuugs, one of the best players). As a result, these are not the cleanest or most accurate portrayal of these mechanics. However, I do the exact same things to the best of the best -- anyone that has fought me can attest to this. Some clips are unrealistic (for example landing 3 waterfalls in a row) but the main point here is to show that waterfalls are viable and the footwork to deal with drags/insta hits. You'll notice there aren't that many chambers because what happens is the attacks miss me. They either miss or connect instantly. This is how I personally deal with the attacks that are tough to read. It's obviously not 100% consistent because that would break the game, but I can perform these maneuvers enough to what I would consider consistent.

Waterfalls are not the only way to bypass parry, there are a plethora of unique things you can do. I chose waterfalls because they are a basic and well-known move that stems all the way from early chiv days.

I have also included two bonus clips for those interested in what it looks like for stabs (the footwork for stabs is near 100% consistency):

https://clips.twitch.tv/FriendlyMistyVelociraptorRalpherZ

https://clips.twitch.tv/FantasticRichCoyoteKeepo

Count 449 1186
  • 1
  • 16 May '18
 Hadeus

People (mostly Chiv die-hards) have repeatedly told me footwork is dogshit in this game and doesn't matter. Most of these people have quit playing Mordhau, never amounting to anything.

Clearly....that isn't true. Footwork compliments your drags, and assists in how you dodge/buy time to react to it.

Nice post.

Duke 2266 4007
  • 1
  • 16 May '18
 Huggles

@Hadeus said:
People (mostly Chiv die-hards) have repeatedly told me footwork is dogshit in this game and doesn't matter. Most of these people have quit playing Mordhau, never amounting to anything.

Clearly....that isn't true. Footwork compliments your drags, and assists in how you dodge/buy time to react to it.

Nice post.

Footwork is actually probably more consequential in mordhau than it was in chivalry simply because it is slower paced and therefore more exact tbh. In chiv it almost felt like people were running all over the place like headless chickens just spazzing out. Reverses and stuff also minimized the importance of footwork.

also @vanguard this is how you are supposed to chamber

Knight 693 1593
  • 1
  • 16 May '18
 das

@Hadeus said:
People (mostly Chiv die-hards) have repeatedly told me footwork is dogshit in this game and doesn't matter. Most of these people have quit playing Mordhau, never amounting to anything.

Clearly....that isn't true. Footwork compliments your drags, and assists in how you dodge/buy time to react to it.

Nice post.

It took a while, but the moment I tried helmetless in January or December and noticed how far I could get away with things, and seeing people adapt to even THAT, my hopes for footwork in Mordhau shot way up.

Also thanks for uploading these, a lot of people don't waterfall in pub duelyards so it's hard to learn how to fight against them since I don't scrim. The truckload of hours I spent dueling Prince made me confident in fighting the many variations of stabs, but I still have trouble with overheads at the moment. Seeing you do these with FULL PLATE is telling of the possibilities. #EmergentGameplay

Footwork is actually probably more consequential in mordhau than it was in chivalry simply because it is slower paced and therefore more exact tbh. In chiv it almost felt like people were running all over the place like headless chickens just spazzing out. Reverses and stuff also minimized the importance of footwork.

This is how I feel too! It really seems that the detractors speak out of ignorance/not understanding the subtleties in defending against these kind of attacks beyond crouch parrying (and why predictable crouch parrying be so bad with the massive space and momentum it concedes). Footwork could be more EXPLOITATIVE and obvious in Chivalry (e.g. massive Vanguard knockback, Man at Arms in its entirety lol), but Mordhau seems to reward nuance much more. Honestly, I do understand when people miss stuff like jump parry and fast momentum-switching easy kicks since facehugs can feel so oppressive at times (whether they objectively are or not), but "buying breathing space" is certainly possible once you get out of that flinch oki/combo feint pressure.

93 102
  • 16 May '18
 TheShade

All duels. Footwork in 1vx is the problem.

Baron 1551 2083
  • 3
  • 16 May '18
 yourcrippledson

@wizardish said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcaBTFc0rgQ&feature=youtu.be

These clips were put together fairly quickly and against players not who are not necessarily top tier (the exception being Shuugs, one of the best players). As a result, these are not the cleanest or most accurate portrayal of these mechanics. However, I do the exact same things to the best of the best -- anyone that has fought me can attest to this. Some clips are unrealistic (for example landing 3 waterfalls in a row) but the main point here is to show that waterfalls are viable and the footwork to deal with drags/insta hits. You'll notice there aren't that many chambers because what happens is the attacks miss me. They either miss or connect instantly. This is how I personally deal with the attacks that are tough to read. It's obviously not 100% consistent because that would break the game, but I can perform these maneuvers enough to what I would consider consistent.

Waterfalls are not the only way to bypass parry, there are a plethora of unique things you can do. I chose waterfalls because they are a basic and well-known move that stems all the way from early chiv days.

I have also included two bonus clips for those interested in what it looks like for stabs (the footwork for stabs is near 100% consistency):

https://clips.twitch.tv/FriendlyMistyVelociraptorRalpherZ

https://clips.twitch.tv/FantasticRichCoyoteKeepo

AHH THAT'S HOW YOU SOLVE THE PROBLEM OF YOUR ARMS NOT EXISTING, AND NOT BEING ABLE TO SEE SHIT BELOW YOUR NOSE? Play in 4:3? How about they just make our viewmodel better so you don't have to play in 4:3 just to make the game work properly? So you can see the underhand drags when you are centered on your opponent in facehugging range. This almost seems like an Exploit for duels compared to how much up and down fov I get in 16:9.

excellent demonstration of footwork and chambers to negate drag queens.

An even better demonstration of a different problem, our viewmodel.

Baron 1551 2083
  • 2
  • 16 May '18
 yourcrippledson

If current view options result in the top players playing in 4:3, how is that better than the top players playing in 16:9 with a higher fov than average? It is just as broken. They need to re-think view-models and fovs and aspect ratios for their game. Make it look good with higher fov or something.

The way the camera is set up doesn't complement the mechanics. They just took a standard first person camera from a shooter and put a sword in front of it. This is not a shooter. There is a reason players went up to 140 and 150 fov in chivalry regularly, and no, they weren't all comp players.

I don't see restricting field of view to be so narrow as a good decision to compliment the mechanics. It is like that so when nubs see gameplay footage, they won't be scared off by the high FOV. Players want higher fov, but we can't have it cause of retention reasons, this is a big contributing factor in my lack of will to even play the game currently.

Conscript 4546 6279
  • 1
  • 16 May '18
 vanguard

Wasn't this record that day that I played with you? Holy shit, having to deal with these waterfalls with 170 ping was PAINFUL lol

I spoke mad shit when I said that using footwork to force chambers was theorycraft. It just seemed to me way too unreliable, and tbh it is, if you do as I did.

What I was doing sometimes was trying to chamber everything, for science. To try and find a way to reliably chamber your opponent, while he knows you will try to chamber stuff and actively try to throw you off. Needless to say I could not find a way to do so.

Once I stopped doing this and fought normally, I could use footwork to chamber attacks that probably were aimed to throw of my Parry, that is, those more telegraphed, less subtle drags. Turns out that if your opponent doesn't expect you to chamber a lot, he ends up throwing attacks that are easier to chamber.

In the end, if you put yourself in a situation that you need to chamber, and your opponent knows that, you are fucked. Like being out of stamina, is one of these situations.

What I'm doing is, playing really conservative with lots of parryies, not using radical drags that can easily miss and using range mind-games to try and force my opponent to miss or ftp, so I win the stamina game. Chambers are a bonus that can help me win the stamina thing. Hard reading Feints and morphs also rekts their stamina real fast.

I'm playing more around punishing mistakes or dumb risks taken by my opponent, denying chambers and stamina management.

Knight 925 2541
  • 16 May '18
 Pred

Wow, you can actually have your arms in this ratio, fucking sweet.

Baron 1551 2083
  • 16 May '18
 yourcrippledson

@Pred said:
Wow, you can actually have your arms in this ratio, fucking sweet.

4:3 confirmed pro meta. 11/10 competitive game design.

Knight 693 1593
  • 1
  • 16 May '18
 das

@vanguard said
Once I stopped doing this and fought normally, I could use footwork to chamber attacks that probably were aimed to throw of my Parry, that is, those more telegraphed, less subtle drags. Turns out that if your opponent doesn't expect you to chamber a lot, he ends up throwing attacks that are easier to chamber.

In the end, if you put yourself in a situation that you need to chamber, and your opponent knows that, you are fucked. Like being out of stamina, is one of these situations.

What I'm doing is, playing really conservative with lots of parryies, not using radical drags that can easily miss and using range mind-games to try and force my opponent to miss or ftp, so I win the stamina game. Chambers are a bonus that can help me win the stamina thing. Hard reading Feints and morphs also rekts their stamina real fast.

I'm playing more around punishing mistakes or dumb risks taken by my opponent, denying chambers and stamina management.

This is a pretty eloquent summary. Balancing chambers, parries, and utilizing footwork to supplement the two (along with hard feint reads, successful baits, and successful kicks being increasingly bigger bonuses) is what it's all about.

For instance, Zwei's good at stamming out people because it's a heavy weapon and it's too risky to chamber all the drags and morph drags, but it's not good at killing fast in a duel since the feints are useless and it's not hard to parry it per se and you definitely can't interrupt/flinch greedy/gambley plays as easily with it like you can with a Rapier. Something more versatile like a Greatsword is generally more threatening in a duel because it has more potent feints and accels while still retaining competent drags, so it's tougher for the enemy to know whether to parry or chamber, but the slightly shorter range and lesser stam negation could mean it takes that one extra crucial attack to stam someone out. On the other extreme end, fast weapons tend to be on a bit of a timer because their lack of draggability makes them easier to chamber, they're harder to chamber with because they're shorter, they have less stam negation and drain, and they rely more on feints. If you can't force the duel to a halt to regain stamina when you're low, you're in some trouble.

Baron 1551 2083
  • 16 May '18
 yourcrippledson

@das said:
Zwei's good at stamming out people because it's a heavy weapon and it's too risky to chamber all the drags and morph drags, but it's not good at killing fast in a duel since the feints are useless and it's not hard to parry it per se and you definitely can't interrupt/flinch greedy/gambley plays as easily with it like you can with a Rapier.

This is why I complain about zwei for duels. Give me a poke to work with so it is more than just a BORING battle of attrition every time I fight another good player with it.

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  • 1
  • 16 May '18
 Elder

How do you people believe that everything Mordhau implements is inherently better than Chivalry?

Not only is that reasoning improbable, but this relentless Mordhau shilling will ostracize those who do have legitimate criticisms about the game.

I genuinely do not find the movement to be better than chivalry's. The bubble is bigger, getting hit in Mordhau nearly halts you, the initial sprint speed is slower, and you can attack sooner after being parried, resulting in teamfights being much more static than in chiv.

Conscript 4546 6279
  • 1
  • 16 May '18
 vanguard

@yourcrippledson said:

@das said:
Zwei's good at stamming out people because it's a heavy weapon and it's too risky to chamber all the drags and morph drags, but it's not good at killing fast in a duel since the feints are useless and it's not hard to parry it per se and you definitely can't interrupt/flinch greedy/gambley plays as easily with it like you can with a Rapier.

This is why I complain about zwei for duels. Give me a poke to work with so it is more than just a BORING battle of attrition every time I fight another good player with it.

I kinda like these battle of atritions tbh, I always liked to play more defensively, so zwei and this fighting style suits me very well.

What gets to me is what appears to be insta hits. Fucking hate these things man, specially annoying because I use light class.

Baron 1551 2083
  • 16 May '18
 yourcrippledson

@vanguard said:

@yourcrippledson said:

@das said:
Zwei's good at stamming out people because it's a heavy weapon and it's too risky to chamber all the drags and morph drags, but it's not good at killing fast in a duel since the feints are useless and it's not hard to parry it per se and you definitely can't interrupt/flinch greedy/gambley plays as easily with it like you can with a Rapier.

This is why I complain about zwei for duels. Give me a poke to work with so it is more than just a BORING battle of attrition every time I fight another good player with it.

I kinda like these battle of atritions tbh, I always liked to play more defensively, so zwei and this fighting style suits me very well.

What gets to me is what appears to be insta hits. Fucking hate these things man, specially annoying because I use light class.

That's fine, giving the poke the same release time as a longsword would only make my preferred playstyle viable, leaving yours intact.

Knight 693 1593
  • 1
  • 16 May '18
 das

@Elder said:
How do you people believe that everything Mordhau implements is inherently better than Chivalry?

We don't. Here's some stuff that are or have been stupider than Chivalry (or at least sparked controversy) - most of them have been removed, some still remain:

Really fast stun kicks. If you tried to parry, your arm hitbox extended and instead made you more likely to get stunned lol.

Jump stun kicks.

Smoke pots blinding you instantly and from afar.

Carrying 3 firepots.

Riposte feints.

15% drag limitation.

Bubble (or lack of it), changed many times throughout the patches.

Hell, the kick mechanic in general, there isn't a unanimous consensus on it. You have a point about the legitimate criticisms though, some stuff does get brushed off too early, especially if some uhhh unsavory or more ignorant/sub-10 hours players agree with you and make your side look less credible (even though it logically makes no sense).

Conscript 4546 6279
  • 1
  • 16 May '18
 vanguard

What I think its worse here then in Chiv is what seems to be insta-hits, or hits landing on you earlier then it looks like they should.

@das said:

@vanguard said
Once I stopped doing this and fought normally, I could use footwork to chamber attacks that probably were aimed to throw of my Parry, that is, those more telegraphed, less subtle drags. Turns out that if your opponent doesn't expect you to chamber a lot, he ends up throwing attacks that are easier to chamber.

In the end, if you put yourself in a situation that you need to chamber, and your opponent knows that, you are fucked. Like being out of stamina, is one of these situations.

What I'm doing is, playing really conservative with lots of parryies, not using radical drags that can easily miss and using range mind-games to try and force my opponent to miss or ftp, so I win the stamina game. Chambers are a bonus that can help me win the stamina thing. Hard reading Feints and morphs also rekts their stamina real fast.

I'm playing more around punishing mistakes or dumb risks taken by my opponent, denying chambers and stamina management.

This is a pretty eloquent summary. Balancing chambers, parries, and utilizing footwork to supplement the two (along with hard feint reads, successful baits, and successful kicks being increasingly bigger bonuses) is what it's all about.

For instance, Zwei's good at stamming out people because it's a heavy weapon and it's too risky to chamber all the drags and morph drags, but it's not good at killing fast in a duel since the feints are useless and it's not hard to parry it per se and you definitely can't interrupt/flinch greedy/gambley plays as easily with it like you can with a Rapier. Something more versatile like a Greatsword is generally more threatening in a duel because it has more potent feints and accels while still retaining competent drags, so it's tougher for the enemy to know whether to parry or chamber, but the slightly shorter range and lesser stam negation could mean it takes that one extra crucial attack to stam someone out. On the other extreme end, fast weapons tend to be on a bit of a timer because their lack of draggability makes them easier to chamber, they're harder to chamber with because they're shorter, they have less stam negation and drain, and they rely more on feints. If you can't force the duel to a halt to regain stamina when you're low, you're in some trouble.

True man, the zwei can be quite versatile if you consider its alt-mode. It works pretty good in duels, give it enough speed to be considerably safer against gambles, and makes easier to reclaim initiative.

Duke 2266 4007
  • 16 May '18
 Huggles

@Elder said:
How do you people believe that everything Mordhau implements is inherently better than Chivalry?

Not only is that reasoning improbable, but this relentless Mordhau shilling will ostracize those who do have legitimate criticisms about the game.

I genuinely do not find the movement to be better than chivalry's. The bubble is bigger, getting hit in Mordhau nearly halts you, the initial sprint speed is slower, and you can attack sooner after being parried, resulting in teamfights being much more static than in chiv.

Most of my top upvoted posts have been criticisms of the game. In fact most of my posts in general are critical. I don't think many people come on here to circle jerk how good the game is. Most of the time it is to critique it. No one here is really a fanboy tbh. The only consensus on these forums is that chivalry was dogshit, not that mordhau is perfect.

I agree about the bubble.

Getting hit nearly halts you for a reason. It is cancer for people to be able to runaway from their fuck ups. It also makes people think more about how they are positioned in a fight and if they have teammates nearby. It forces people to commit to fights more. Initial sprint speed is there for most of the same reasons, with the added reason of tracers being quite limited compared to chiv so misses happen more often. If mordhau had chiv's movement speed it would be a constant WHIFF fest. No one would be hitting anything.

Attacking sooner after being parried is a huge improvement from chivalry. It makes fights feel more like actual fights and more dynamic and such. It punishes hesitation and people trying to pull off the slowest most ridiculously telegraphed drags without consequence. It transitions the game away from a boring turn taking simulator.

Count 671 1130
  • 16 May '18
 Zexis

@vanguard said:
What I think its worse here then in Chiv is what seems to be insta-hits, or hits landing on you earlier then it looks like they should.

part of the problem is there are numerous factors affecting when you get hit and think you should get hit.

-fov
-camera distance
-ping extrapolation or w/e it's called
-latency
-quality of connection in general
-animations (big buzzword)
-possibly bugs

I do genuinely think this has gotten better over time and next patch will supposedly, maybe, have further swing arc changes

Baron 1551 2083
  • 3
  • 16 May '18
 yourcrippledson

@Zexis said:
-camera distance

They should put an explanation for this setting to let you know how much it can affect when attacks seemingly hit you. if they haven't already.