Mordhau

Mordhau Lacks Emergent Gameplay

Baron 1551 2074
  • 1
  • 12 May '18
 yourcrippledson

@das said:
You CAN do well with Zwei, with either grip.If anything, basically any weapon, even the fucking farming tools, is at the very least SERVICEABLE thanks to the game mechanics unlike

My gripe with the Zwei doesn't necessarily come from lack of power, but feel of the weapon. Speaking of farming tools, the shovel currently feels more like how the Zwei animations should feel...

in Chivalry where you literally had 95 - 5 matchups like Heavy Flail vs Maul.

You could do just fine with the flail, just rare when anybody invested the time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aDvaTtRc3c&t=4s

Duke 2264 3999
  • 12 May '18
 Huggles

More unique mechanics on certain weapons like the billhook has are what the game needs imho.

Also maybe a fresh new mechanic that brings something new to the table in terms of distance management maybe. I always wondered what the game would be like with some type of quick grab and throw mechanic for instance. As a long term smash player I always missed that kind of thing in a sword fighting game.

Not something spammy and obnoxious that does a ton of unavoidable dmg or sets up unavoidable dmg. Just like a quick semi risky move that creates distance but not much else.

Baron 1551 2074
  • 2
  • 12 May '18
 yourcrippledson

@Huggles said:
a quick semi risky move that creates distance but not much else.

^This.

We need more ways to create distance. Bubble is a lazy solution. Knockback only does so much. Kick isn't for this.

251 856
  • 1
  • 12 May '18
 Cswic

Sounds like a pommel bash / shield bash / off hand punch type of thing. Polearm weapons could do like a chin bop darth maul style.

1909 961

@das said:
Have you considered that it's because we did so much exploring on Chivalry already? Imagine if Chivalry never existed and this game got released out nowhere with zero cool or educational Youtube from Jax, moosey, Sharantil, Giru, etc. You'd probably have the same half-decade slow meta optimization and discovery process of matrixing, spacing, aiming, etc. We've discovered the big, obvious, macro mechanics long ago. There's still a lot of subtle depth not being touched imo.

I don't think that's the case. Because Chivalry still feels less constrained than Mordhau.

Regarding your comment that we should forget about duels and focus on teamplay.

I think a good game allows for emergent gameplay in both duels and teamplay, not one or the other.

Knight 154 452
  • 5
  • 12 May '18
 Nautilus

@roshawnmarcellterrell said:

@das said:
Have you considered that it's because we did so much exploring on Chivalry already? Imagine if Chivalry never existed and this game got released out nowhere with zero cool or educational Youtube from Jax, moosey, Sharantil, Giru, etc. You'd probably have the same half-decade slow meta optimization and discovery process of matrixing, spacing, aiming, etc. We've discovered the big, obvious, macro mechanics long ago. There's still a lot of subtle depth not being touched imo.

I don't think that's the case. Because Chivalry still feels less constrained than Mordhau.

Regarding your comment that we should forget about duels and focus on teamplay.

I think a good game allows for emergent gameplay in both duels and teamplay, not one or the other.

I think there's a fundamental difference in the way that playstyles emerge in both games. In Chivalry there were very little limitations and it seemed that play-styles and mechanics arose from freedom. In Mordhau, it seems to be the opposite where many mechanics were intentionally built into the game and freedom arises from choosing mechanics.

I wouldn't say any is better, but it feels like I don't have to think as actively about strategy when playing Chivalry as it is very organic. In Mordhau, it seems to encourage more strategy where players have to consider the mechanics and pick different ones at different times.

All of this doesn't mean that surprise strategies don't arise in Mordhau, but there is much less manipulation of the mechanics than in Chivalry, as the mechanics in Mordhau are all intentional. The downside to this spontaneity is that certain tactics in Chivalry come off as cheesy or broken (i.e. backswings). However, I do believe that these Chivalry tactics were very emergent and creative as there was a very subtle manipulation of mouse movement that made it an art of sorts. I would often try something new in Chivalry and I would either Succeed or fall flat on my face, which is a difference between Chivalry and Mordhau. In Chivalry, most of my tactics came from experimentation and I was barely taught any tactics from others directly. The combat in Chivalry is very organic and simple with less restrictions on movement such as clashes.

There is a beauty to Mordhau's mechanics, which is namely that mechanics can be accounted for more easily. This also means that Mordhau remains more orderly and consistent because there are more rules. This allows for more strategy but also requires a more active understanding of the mechanics. I think this is what ultimately makes the game feel much slower for me as the game encourages "analytical gameplay." The mechanics in Mordhau might also lend themselves better to new players as there are no backswings and the like. I feel like Mordhau is better for those who want to focus on strategy, whereas Chivalry is better for "mellowing-out" and just going with the moment.

Either way, I like both games and I can't really make a fair comparison until Mordhau hits release. I can't wait to see how all of the game modes pan out.

Baron 1551 2074
  • 3
  • 12 May '18
 yourcrippledson

Even as you're trying to be objective/play devils advocate, you're making an extremely good case for Chivalries gameplay philosophy. It almost seems like as you were writing this comment, you were discovering what is really missing in this game. I do this a lot. I will start writing a comment with one opinion, then by the end of it, I've thought more about it than before, so I have a different opinion lol.

@Nautilus said:
In Chivalry there were very little limitations and it seemed that play-styles and mechanics arose from freedom. In Mordhau, freedom arises from choosing mechanics.
playing Chivalry is very organic. In Mordhau, players have to pick different mechanics at different times.

Root of the problem^. Chivalry you essentially invent your own mechanics in an extremely organic feeling way over time.
In MORDHAU you get better at picking which mechanic the game has put in front of you.
This causes me to feel stunted as a player, creatively and skillfully. (Only compared to Chiv. Mordhau is still far more complex than any other first person action game)

in Mordhau, there is much less manipulation of the mechanics than in Chivalry, as the mechanics in Mordhau are all intentional. The downside to this spontaneity is that certain tactics in Chivalry come off as cheesy or broken (i.e. backswings). However, I do believe that these Chivalry tactics were very emergent and creative as there was a very subtle manipulation of mouse movement that made it an art of sorts.

This emergent gameplay was arguably the best thing about chivalry. I assumed the entire purpose of Mordhau was to take this and expand upon it. But it seems All they have really done is remove the broken feeling, that was clearly their only focus. This result is a game that doesn't feel like Chivalry and isn't even attempting to expand upon the main thing that made it so good, instead it has objectively diminished. This is why people say it is not the true successor to Chivalry.

I thought morphs and chambers were here to increase the skill ceiling. Instead they just bring it back up to where Chivalries was, in a much more constrained way. (Which is still fun to the point where MORDHAU is currently my favourite game). But I fear will leave me feeling creatively bankrupt 1000, 2000 hours in.

Mordhau remains more orderly and consistent because there are more rules. makes the game feel much slower for me as the game encourages "analytical gameplay." The mechanics in Mordhau might also lend themselves better to new players as there are no backswings and the like. I feel like Mordhau is better for those who want to focus on strategy, whereas Chivalry is better for "mellowing-out" and just going with the moment.

Lack of emergent gameplay is a direct result of catering to the nubs. NUB fanbase is vital, but a better balance between player freedom and nub friendliness can be attained. Plus Mordhau has so many rules, it is confusing to Chiv vets at first, so I'm not even convinced this game is more nub friendly atm.

Chivalry wasn't even that inconsistent either, it felt that way at first, then I got faster internet, better computer, better at the game, and guess what? It felt completely consistent. if everybody could have played Chivalry at 120 fps and 30 ping, this alone would have helped the population drastically. If Mordhau was nothing more than a polished Chivalry, it would be able to retain a decent player base. And really, this is all MANY people wanted/expected when they threw their money at the project.

Intelligent game design accomplishes the same goals with fewer rules. The fewer arbitrary rules and mechanics there are, the closer the game feels to real life, or as you put it quite nicely "mellowing out and going with the moment". In MORDHAU the moment is lost on me.

Whether or not more thought was put into Chivalries mechanics is irrelevant, I feel as though the development process itself was more organic and less structured, leading to a more organic product. Winner of the duel in this game is the more creative player who is able to "go with the flow", and improvise.

Mordhau's development is more scientific, creating scientific feeling gameplay. The winner of the duel in this game can be seen on paper before the duel begins. It rewards thinking ahead and pure muscle memory. This punishes creativity, and improvisational tactics.

1909 961

I would often try something new in Chivalry and I would either Succeed or fall flat on my face, which is a difference between Chivalry and Mordhau. In Chivalry, most of my tactics came from experimentation and I was barely taught any tactics from others directly. The combat in Chivalry is very organic and simple with less restrictions on movement such as clashes.

This right here.

I love this process in games.

1909 961

@yourcrippledson said:
Intelligent game design accomplishes the same goals with fewer rules. The fewer arbitrary rules and mechanics there are, the closer the game feels to real life, or as you put it quite nicely "mellowing out and going with the moment". In MORDHAU the moment is lost on me.

Exactly, you want less rules not more of them.

I also very much agree with what you said regarding consistency.
Whenever someone did something completely new that I didn't expect, I was always pleasantly surprised. Because I myself didn't imagine doing that, even though what they did fit completely and made perfect sense in accordance to rules of the game.

I remember the first time I saw someone do a backswing. I wasn't angry, I was like 'Wow, I never thought of doing that!'. And it made me quite giddy with excitement because it made me wonder what else is possible, what else can I do?

I also agree with your statement that Mordhau does feel very scientific/analytical and mostly focuses on just muscle memory.

Knight 5030 6691
  • 12 May '18
 Humble Staff

@yourcrippledson said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aDvaTtRc3c&t=4s

Man this is my first contact with chivalry since Mordhau's alpha came up and i unistalled chiv.
Watching this video was even cathartic, made me realise how much i truly enjoyed this game and how although Morhdau is better in many ways, i haven't had the oportunity to truly enjoy it yet. My heart belongs to the big, objective based battles and the ffa caos, fuck duels.
I also realised how Mordhau in comparison to chivalry is like a mute people convention, there isn't a single second of that video in which you don't hear a line from any of the characters of chiv, lmao.

251 856
  • 1
  • 12 May '18
 Cswic

So basically you are upset that the aspects of chivalry the average person disliked were purposefully removed in Mordhau.

Mordhau has "rules" because it is healthier in the long run.

Every time there is a comment about Chivalry out in the wild on reddit/YouTube it goes something like this:

"Chivalry was tons of fun at the start but then the game got ruined by people doing swing exploits and crazy spinning shit".

There are still many different tactics to try in mordhau, they just don't seem to be the tactics that you wanted.

Baron 1551 2074
  • 2
  • 12 May '18
 yourcrippledson

@Cswic said:
So basically you are upset
"Chivalry was tons of fun at the start but then the game got ruined by people doing swing exploits and crazy spinning shit".

Never said I was upset. Never said spinning shit needed to be in the game. There is a middle ground between freedom and constraint, and I'm speculating that they can afford to give us slightly more freedom. That's it.

EDIT: I find it somewhat ironic that the guy who probably abuses the unintentional, emergent "jump kick" exploit the most of any player in the game is defending the hard and fast ruleset MORDHAU tries to make you play by. If it's so great as it is why do you jump kick so much?

251 856
  • 2
  • 12 May '18
 Cswic

I was replying to roshawn not you.

It should also be said that i was one of the main people in stauxie's jump kick thread I was one of the main people stating that jump kicks with stun are dumb and should go because they would likely result in an unfun experience for newer players.

Similar to backswings, reverses, etc. Do any of the above 3 cause much grief for more experienced players? Not really. But newer players would die to them and overall they made the game look bad (IMO).

Devs seem to still be undecided about jump kicks so they may very well go as well and that is fine.

Baron 1551 2074
  • 2
  • 12 May '18
 yourcrippledson

Oh sorry for roasting you.

gotta quote bro. I am sensitive.

But honestly, when people say "Chivalry was tons of fun at the start but then the game got ruined by people doing swing exploits and crazy spinning shit". They don't know what they are talking about. The game got ruined by people being much better than them Period. It wasn't the spinning in itself that turned gamers off, it wasn't the way it looked. It was the fact that they went from the nub servers to the normal servers and got FUCKED UP. It wouldn't have mattered at all if backswings were in the game or not. They just would have gotten fucked up by a different meta, only to go onto a forum and complain about how it's the game's fault instead of theirs.

Knight 890 2462
  • 2
  • 12 May '18
 Pred

Chiv bik fredoom every duel taking turns feinting with SOW. Mordhau no emergent mechanics, such restraint.

If discovering new stuff was such important to you in Chiv, then maybe brag a little and give us the list of things and mechanics you discovered when you were freely expressing yourself. I'm interested in that.

Baron 1551 2074
  • 12 May '18
 yourcrippledson

@Pred said:
Chiv bik fredoom every duel taking turns feinting with SOW

^WRONG

You literally didn't even have to feint in Chivalry. The animations in combination with the level of swing manipulation gave you enough to work with. The "drag only" playstyle looked like a ballerina not only because of all of the spinning, but because you and your weapon were constantly in motion and combat flowed, which really felt good. It felt like I was in absolute control. 100% of each swing was CALCULATED down to the millisecond. It is a completely different feeling, that as of patch 15 has been eradicated from this game. I am not forced to calculate my swings. I just swing, mechanics provided by the game do the rest. it's like driving on manual for years and then switching to an automatic.

Having to feint and morph CONSTANTLY makes the combat feel more clunky and rigid. SWING WAIT CANCEL WAIT PARRY WAIT MOREPH WAIT CHAMBER. I want these thing to be tools on my belt that I take out when I need them, instead they are all I got.

301 875
  • 12 May '18
 Naleaus

@yourcrippledson said:

@Pred said:
Chiv bik fredoom every duel taking turns feinting with SOW

^WRONG

You literally didn't even have to feint in Chivalry. The animations in combination with the level of swing manipulation gave you enough to work with. The "drag only" playstyle looked like a ballerina not only because of all of the spinning, but because you and your weapon were constantly in motion and combat flowed, which really felt good. It felt like I was in absolute control. 100% of each swing was CALCULATED down to the millisecond. It is a completely different feeling, that as of patch 15 has been eradicated from this game. I am not forced to calculate my swings. I just swing, mechanics provided by the game do the rest. it's like driving on manual for years and then switching to an automatic.

Having to feint and morph CONSTANTLY makes the combat feel more clunky and rigid. SWING WAIT CANCEL WAIT PARRY WAIT MOREPH WAIT CHAMBER. I want these thing to be tools on my belt that I take out when I need them, instead they are all I got.

You don't have to feint in Mordhau either. But just like in Chiv, it's usually the fastest way to kill someone that isn't just terrible. Personally I don't feint much because against the majority of people playing it's not needed, I'll be able to kill them other ways.

People didn't hate reverses and other mechanics because the people using them were better. They didn't like it cause it was unintuitive and looked like shit. It didn't take skill to reverse bad players. Most of the newer players that picked up reverses and tried to use that playstyle were fucking terrible because they didn't learn any other fundamental stuff and just spun instead.

I was pretty good at Chiv, I'm pretty good at Mordhau. Instead of trying to force the playstyle you want on Mordhau, explore and find other styles. Or wait for someone better than you to find a meta you like.

1909 961

@yourcrippledson said:

@Pred said:
Chiv bik fredoom every duel taking turns feinting with SOW

^WRONG

You literally didn't even have to feint in Chivalry. The animations in combination with the level of swing manipulation gave you enough to work with. The "drag only" playstyle looked like a ballerina not only because of all of the spinning, but because you and your weapon were constantly in motion and combat flowed, which really felt good. It felt like I was in absolute control. 100% of each swing was CALCULATED down to the millisecond. It is a completely different feeling, that as of patch 15 has been eradicated from this game. I am not forced to calculate my swings. I just swing, mechanics provided by the game do the rest. it's like driving on manual for years and then switching to an automatic.

Having to feint and morph CONSTANTLY makes the combat feel more clunky and rigid. SWING WAIT CANCEL WAIT PARRY WAIT MOREPH WAIT CHAMBER. I want these thing to be tools on my belt that I take out when I need them, instead they are all I got.

Thank you, yes exactly.

Many Top players like Alice never feint. Not because they were against them, but simply because they didn't need to or want to, it just wasn't apart of their playstyle.

I'm the same way, I don't feint at all. But in Mordhau, you're essentially forced to use these mechanics.

1302 2871
  • 12 May '18
 Monsteri

@yourcrippledson said:
Having to feint and morph CONSTANTLY makes the combat feel more clunky and rigid.

I agree with this.

In addendum I think a feint heavy meta will fuck up noobs much worse than a swing manipulation-heavy meta. Every single little combofeint I do means a free hit. Noobs really struggle with feints, and they're much easier to perform so you end up with a boring intermediate skill curve where offense takes very little skill and defense is a passive reaction test. Of course this is not how the high level plays out, but I don't think the players who are just getting to grips with the game are gonna have much fun.

301 875
  • 12 May '18
 Naleaus

@roshawnmarcellterrell said:

@yourcrippledson said:

@Pred said:
Chiv bik fredoom every duel taking turns feinting with SOW

^WRONG

You literally didn't even have to feint in Chivalry. The animations in combination with the level of swing manipulation gave you enough to work with. The "drag only" playstyle looked like a ballerina not only because of all of the spinning, but because you and your weapon were constantly in motion and combat flowed, which really felt good. It felt like I was in absolute control. 100% of each swing was CALCULATED down to the millisecond. It is a completely different feeling, that as of patch 15 has been eradicated from this game. I am not forced to calculate my swings. I just swing, mechanics provided by the game do the rest. it's like driving on manual for years and then switching to an automatic.

Having to feint and morph CONSTANTLY makes the combat feel more clunky and rigid. SWING WAIT CANCEL WAIT PARRY WAIT MOREPH WAIT CHAMBER. I want these thing to be tools on my belt that I take out when I need them, instead they are all I got.

Thank you, yes exactly.

Many Top players like Alice never feint. Not because they were against them, but simply because they didn't need to or want to, it just wasn't apart of their playstyle.

I'm the same way, I don't feint at all. But in Mordhau, you're essentially forced to use these mechanics.

This is kind of bullshit.

Alice was a top player when feints were looked down upon in NA, and it stunted the skill level of a lot of players for quite awhile. Alice didn't dodge either, guess what happened when they had to fight another top MAA, Kwazi, that did? Alice had to dodge, and lost because they hadn't used that mechanic as much. They both feinted too I believe.

Not using a mechanic doesn't make you more skillful, it makes you a worse player. And even still, you don't have to use feints in Mordhau to kill people. I kill most players the same way as in Chiv. Waterfalls, footwork and better defense.