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Example of Extreme Attack Manipulation

177 457
  • 3 May '18
 Koda

Gif: https://thumbs.gfycat.com/VillainousAdvancedDavidstiger-size_restricted.gif

Issue: Attack is going almost straight up, then passes my chamber attempt and is on a path that will miss me, then starts going in a downwards direction. This is the most severe I've seen it.

I know a lot of you will say "just use footwork, dipfuck" but I am not talking about me getting hit, I'm talking about how silly the attack looks.

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  • 3 May '18
 crushed — Art

Chamber failed not because of angle, but timing here

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  • 3 May '18
 Koda

@crushed said:
Chamber failed not because of angle, but timing here

Right, I get it. If it was an accel I would have got the chamber I assume, but this post is not about me or my chamber attempt.

This was about the attack and nothing else. Does it not look completely fucked to you?

80 286
  • 3 May '18
 wizardish

Standing still will allow for attacks to look strange like this.

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  • 3 May '18
 Koda

@wizardish said:
Standing still will allow for attacks to look strange like this.

Well if it's a weird attack, yes. It's actually the best way to see an attack as it is. If you are using footwork to make the attack look less retarded, that would be the illusion.

I want people to ignore me in this gif. I'm talking about the actual attack itself being completely ridiculous. People can't seem to get past what I could have done to somehow hide how ridiculous it was or to counter this attack.

Knight 941 2569
  • 3 May '18
 Pred

@Koda said:

@wizardish said:
Standing still will allow for attacks to look strange like this.

Well if it's a weird attack, yes. It's actually the best way to see an attack as it is. If you are using footwork to make the attack look less retarded, that would be the illusion.

I want people to ignore me in this gif. I'm talking about the actual attack itself being completely ridiculous. People can't seem to get past what I could have done to somehow hide how ridiculous it was or to counter this attack.

Yes, that's how it works here.

lOOk aT tEh tIp oF tEh wEaPoN AnD uSe fOOtwOrK

Conscript 4564 6302
  • 1
  • 3 May '18
 vanguard

@Koda said:

@wizardish said:
Standing still will allow for attacks to look strange like this.

I want people to ignore me in this gif. I'm talking about the actual attack itself being completely ridiculous. People can't seem to get past what I could have done to somehow hide how ridiculous it was or to counter this attack.

This is absolutely true imho, could this be avoided by footwork? Doesn't matter, because these kind of attacks also happens when you footwork. The fact is, this shit is borderline unreadable, notice how it is a VERY well made last-moment drag, basically, up until the last frames you think it is a accell and there is no clue at all if your opponent will delay or not. This is effectively a gamble tbh and it is frustrating as hell imho because you cannot identify wtf it is up until you are already hit by it.

I still think the game is too damn fast for its own good. Notice how this drag is basically chivalry, with the weapon freezing mid release and all, but the difference here is only that it happens way too fucking fast you cannot wait to read the release in N cases. All medium weapons like messer, LS, billhook etc can do this shit really, REALLY effective and it is not hard to do.

I still don't understand what good effects such subtle fake-out attacks bring to the combat, it is so fucking effective that it basically outshines every other offensive manuever, it rises the skill ceiling in deffense by A LOT, while lowering it on offense because honestly, this shit is easy to pull off and fucking effective beyond imagination, much more then most other offensive techniques.

Imho these kind of attacks are dumb and broken, if we are going to have fake-out attacks like this in the game, then we need some way to read them either by making the game slower or some other kind of magic idk.

Knight 1269 3811
  • 4 May '18
 Frise

Glancing blows, which fuck with 1vX in a retarded way, were put in the game so that newcomers wouldn't be scared off by dumb-looking spins.

Yet you defend this scenarios, Crush, where it looked like he chambered correctly but the weapon froze in mid-air for a split second. That's the issue here, it's that it looked absolutely retarded. Go ahead and tell me newer players won't be driven off when they read a drag and wait to chamber only to get a magically freezed-mid-air weapon.

I'm not talking about the difficulty in chambering here, I don't even want them to be easier because the patches that were chamber-fests felt like shit to me. But you need to understand that the issue is how unintuitive these freezing delays are. Something should be made to prevent these drags because they feel cheesy, look dumb, and drive off new players. Chambering will likely be way easier, but then you can just adjust the timings on it to make it properly challenging instead of it being in its current state.

@wizardish said:
Standing still will allow for attacks to look strange like this.

This happens when moving away from the attack too, you can't tell me you haven't seen weapons freezing mid-release. Standing still didn't have to do with how dumb the attack look; What the attacker did here is look away from the attack during late release, leading to the floaty look. If Koda had been moving away from the attack, the attacker would just have tracked him early/mid-release, and slightly pull away at the end of release. Same floaty look. But come on man, you know how dragging works and you know these freezing drags happen all the time.

Anyway, the actual point is that if you look at that gif, it absolutely looks like he chambered it right. He winded up the attack when the opponent's weapon was practically touching his weapon, but it magically froze mid-air and hit him later. Difficulty/balance is not the point here, but how unintuitive it looks.

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This game is about timing your defensive input down to the ms ahead of accel+ping but after feint/drag/morph window etc. Thus the meta on the offensive end will always be about making you react too late or too early. Such moves and last second drags will thus always be the meta and if you nerf them fights will go on forever... until you nerf parry/chamber windows but then you're back at square one. THIS IS WHY PARRY SHOULD BE ABOUT LOCATION/ANGLE ETC rather than the corny and lame way Chivalry set it up. The game is really fast, yes, but slowing it down is just a band-aid to the real issues at hand. Slow it down and everything becomes ez block and ez chamber and you don't feel the pressure to try inputting before ping. The purest, most natural and intuitive moves come from players attacking a shield user. I'm impressed when Huggles or Naleus rape my shield. Those aren't muscle memory moves you use to break a shield and muscle memory moves don't work twice against a shield user without mindgames and ofc, skill.

This game:
"Let's remove jedi spin drags and back tracers"

"oh but let's make all weapons super fast yet draggable and make parry/chamber windows super small so people still hate themselves"

diabolical laughter

988 6974
  • 4 May '18
 marox — Project Lead

In this patch we changed the look interpolation equations entirely, so this is probably a result of that. The interpolation time might be too low at the moment to smooth out the stuff the server sends, but it would be good to have a high framerate video instead of a gif, and the fps this was played at.

1090 6149
  • 4 May '18
 crushed — Art

@Frise said:
Yet you defend this scenarios, Crush,

I don't defend it, the OP gave me the impression that this was about the angle and not timing that's all. The drag looks wierd and tweaks will be made to improve it.

This game is about timing your defensive input down to the ms ahead of accel+ping but after feint/drag/morph window etc. Thus the meta on the offensive end will always be about making you react too late or too early. Such moves and last second drags will thus always be the meta and if you nerf them fights will go on forever... until you nerf parry/chamber windows but then you're back at square one. THIS IS WHY PARRY SHOULD BE ABOUT LOCATION/ANGLE ETC rather than the corny and lame way Chivalry set it up. The game is really fast, yes, but slowing it down is just a band-aid to the real issues at hand. Slow it down and everything becomes ez block and ez chamber and you don't feel the pressure to try inputting before ping. The purest, most natural and intuitive moves come from players attacking a shield user. I'm impressed when Huggles or Naleus rape my shield. Those aren't muscle memory moves you use to break a shield and muscle memory moves don't work twice against a shield user without mindgames and ofc, skill.

We tried a smaller directional parry recently, and it was very bad. The directional drags are a lot more wonky and unintuitive to fight against than timing drags, they look much worse too when you aim at an attack, parry and it goes trough. Teamfights were ruined completely. We're definitely not going to change the timing focus of the combat.

396 454
  • 4 May '18
 JasonBourne

You need to run into the swing a little bit, and turn your body a bit towards the swing.

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  • 4 May '18
 Naleaus

The video in the first post looks like the sort of hitches in animations I see when messing with the m.maxpinginterpolation setting, so I definitely think it'd have more to do with that than drags.

As for calls for reduced parry size, it's already pretty easy to attack around parry (for me at least.)
When shield parry size was reduced, it was almost trivial to hit around them. And it's not like people didn't know that I'm about to spam waterfalls on them. It just didn't matter. I don't think people enjoy getting hit by those currently (check out Koda's other thread or the bunch of wtfs I get in game), making that sort of change would just exacerbate those style of drags. It's also a chiv drag, nothing new or specific to Mordhau at all.

King 9 20
  • 4 May '18
 Knil

I think the biggest issue that people need to understand is that drags as a mechanic look and feel terrible for the average player and really shouldn't exist if we want to reach a larger market than just chiv vets.

177 457
  • 4 May '18
 Koda

@Naleaus said:
The video in the first post looks like the sort of hitches in animations I see when messing with the m.maxpinginterpolation setting, so I definitely think it'd have more to do with that than drags.

As for calls for reduced parry size, it's already pretty easy to attack around parry (for me at least.)
When shield parry size was reduced, it was almost trivial to hit around them. And it's not like people didn't know that I'm about to spam waterfalls on them. It just didn't matter. I don't think people enjoy getting hit by those currently (check out Koda's other thread or the bunch of wtfs I get in game), making that sort of change would just exacerbate those style of drags. It's also a chiv drag, nothing new or specific to Mordhau at all.

The thing is that there are two sides. One side is saying make attacks a bit more strict to make them more natural looking and less extreme. The opposition says that will make it so parrying / chambering is too easy, so fights will last too long.

Then the people who want stricter attacks will say that the solution to that is to make parrying / chambering more difficult, rather than making attacks more extreme.

So one side wants crazy attacks and easy parries to compensate, the other side wants more believable attacks and harder parrying / chambering. I think there is a middle ground somewhere and the current state of the game is at or very near to this middle ground. I think the game has never been better and I wouldn't suggest further nerfs or buffs in that area. I'm really happy with the state of the game right now and if it were up to me, the devs would stop making dramatic combat changes to constantly try to appease whichever side is upset. I still see people complaining about drags, and a lot less than that wanting drags buffed, but most people I believe are happy right now, more or less.

Conscript 4564 6302
  • 4 May '18
 vanguard

Yeah I mean, for me, aside from the fake-out drags and the 240 system lacking a few features, the game is 10/10

Duke 986 1381
  • 4 May '18
 PadanFain

@Knil said:
I think the biggest issue that people need to understand is that drags as a mechanic look and feel terrible for the average player and really shouldn't exist if we want to reach a larger market than just chiv vets.

Lol wut

Duke 2266 4010
  • 3
  • 5 May '18
 Huggles

@Koda said:

@Naleaus said:
The video in the first post looks like the sort of hitches in animations I see when messing with the m.maxpinginterpolation setting, so I definitely think it'd have more to do with that than drags.

As for calls for reduced parry size, it's already pretty easy to attack around parry (for me at least.)
When shield parry size was reduced, it was almost trivial to hit around them. And it's not like people didn't know that I'm about to spam waterfalls on them. It just didn't matter. I don't think people enjoy getting hit by those currently (check out Koda's other thread or the bunch of wtfs I get in game), making that sort of change would just exacerbate those style of drags. It's also a chiv drag, nothing new or specific to Mordhau at all.

The thing is that there are two sides. One side is saying make attacks a bit more strict to make them more natural looking and less extreme. The opposition says that will make it so parrying / chambering is too easy, so fights will last too long.

Then the people who want stricter attacks will say that the solution to that is to make parrying / chambering more difficult, rather than making attacks more extreme.

So one side wants crazy attacks and easy parries to compensate, the other side wants more believable attacks and harder parrying / chambering. I think there is a middle ground somewhere and the current state of the game is at or very near to this middle ground. I think the game has never been better and I wouldn't suggest further nerfs or buffs in that area. I'm really happy with the state of the game right now and if it were up to me, the devs would stop making dramatic combat changes to constantly try to appease whichever side is upset. I still see people complaining about drags, and a lot less than that wanting drags buffed, but most people I believe are happy right now, more or less.

I'll echo this. The state of the game is very good right now and the balance between offense, defense, drags, feints, morphs, etc are all really solid.

I was pushing for defense nerfs for basically the entirety of this alpha. I was the first to say patch 15 was utter dogshit, like a lot, for many hours over many days.

But, this patch is simply phenomenal. I don't think parry needs any changes atm. The only thing I for me would be that what I think the game needs is the removal of the 5% mechanic. It really would not effect drags very much at all. They would still be just as easy to defend against. But many attacks that missed that VISUALLY hit your opponent would actually hit them and it wouldn't feel bad because the end of releases are sped up.

Perhaps more directional parries would work very well for duels, but for teamplay they're really bad when considering how the rest of the game functions. The devs would need to radically redesign combat which at this point is very late and a dumb move when people are more or less happy with the game.

TLDR: The balance is almost as good as it is gonna get. If defense gets any easier, I think I'll flip shit. But I don't really think it should be that much harder even tho that is generally what I prefer. I do think the game is fine tho minus some whiffs that really shouldn't whiff due to the 5% shit. The FURTHEST I would go is some tiny parry nerf, like 25ms or something. But seriously, if defense gets any easier I'll flip shit >:c

Conscript 4564 6302
  • 1
  • 5 May '18
 vanguard

But in the case of the gif showed by the OP Huggles, do you think that kind of thing should be as strong as they are now? Do you consider fixing or nerfing fake-out drags to be a offense nerf or a deffense buff?

Offense and deffense buff or nerf are concepts that confuse me tbh

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