Mordhau

Automatically Feint To Parry seems faster than Double Click

Duke 5501 13138
  • 5 Apr '18
 Jax — Community Manager

according to my mouse driver I have 2.25 million LMB clicks and 600k RMB clicks I think I'm fine

Knight 928 2545
  • 5 Apr '18
 Pred

@Jax said:
according to my mouse driver I have 2.25 million LMB clicks and 600k RMB clicks I think I'm fine

GAMBLE MOAR

Count 671 1131
  • 5 Apr '18
 Zexis

@das said:
double rmb ftp was inferior for the exact same reason in Chivalry. Manual FtP is best cause, say in Zwei vs Arming Sword for instance, you start a stab but so does the enemy and you know his weapon will hit you first, so you feint but then you notice he feinted too, so you DON'T FtP because you don't crutch on auto FtP but rather recognize that manual FtP still has its merit and autoFtP is simply for making the input more responsive

or you're a scrub like me and ftp is muscle memory so it takes extraordinary concentration to begin a ftp but not parry
;(

Conscript 4562 6301
  • 5 Apr '18
 vanguard

@Zexis said:

@das said:
double rmb ftp was inferior for the exact same reason in Chivalry. Manual FtP is best cause, say in Zwei vs Arming Sword for instance, you start a stab but so does the enemy and you know his weapon will hit you first, so you feint but then you notice he feinted too, so you DON'T FtP because you don't crutch on auto FtP but rather recognize that manual FtP still has its merit and autoFtP is simply for making the input more responsive

or you're a scrub like me and ftp is muscle memory so it takes extraordinary concentration to begin a ftp but not parry
;(

Lmao shiet, I went through this back in Chiv.. Good luck man this is annoying as fuck to get rid off

Baron 1551 2085

@Zexis said:

@das said:
double rmb ftp was inferior for the exact same reason in Chivalry. Manual FtP is best cause, say in Zwei vs Arming Sword for instance, you start a stab but so does the enemy and you know his weapon will hit you first, so you feint but then you notice he feinted too, so you DON'T FtP because you don't crutch on auto FtP but rather recognize that manual FtP still has its merit and autoFtP is simply for making the input more responsive

or you're a scrub like me and ftp is muscle memory so it takes extraordinary concentration to begin a ftp but not parry
;(

That is why i like double click so much. You can click once for caution, and only click again once you know situation is critical. Therefore my second click is going to be at the last possible millisecond, but i am being punished for it because although my click was perfectly timed, my actual parry was not.

I am pointlessly dieing because of an aberrant sliver of animation, unnecessarily brought about by my preferred choice of binds, that i carried over directly from the only other games in this genre, which this game is based directly off of and mechanically built atop...

It worked perfectly in both Chiv and MnB. I don't see why it shouldn't for Mordhau...

if i have to change this i might as well also swap W with LMB for how much of a mindfuck such an ingrained mechanic changing is going to be...

IMO THIS IS A MAJOR DESIGN FLAW

Knight 693 1593
  • 5 Apr '18
 das

You should've titled it as "Double clicking RMB has a delay in parrying that isn't supposed to be there" because, if I understand you correctly, you're saying it's slower than it's supposed to be (compared to chivalry).

Knight 528 3378
  • 5 Apr '18
 rob_owner

chivalry double click rmb was slower than chivalry Q + Rmb, but both were as slow as molasses compared to binding the first column for parry to like backslash, and the second to rmb, which makes rmb work the same as autoftp

Knight 3303 6769
  • 2
  • 5 Apr '18
 Bodkin

Auto ftp is pretty essential for noobs to understand the game and not get turned off because of "hackers" you can't kill when they miss.

This is probably the reason it exists and the primary reason it should stay.

Removing it and making some mechanics really convoluted will just repeat the chivalry cycle. I'm aware some people seem to want this, but I eeally would rather new players be impressed at high level fights rather than turned off or not even understanding how people do really basic and essential maneuvers like ftp

The easiest way to allow people to not call BS at everything is to easily let them do the same thing.

If a basic mechanic is so powerful and broken that someone would argue that no noob should do it easily, then it probably just shouldn't be in the game to begin with.

Baron 1551 2085
  • 5 Apr '18
 yourcrippledson

@Bodkin said:
Auto ftp is pretty essential for noobs to understand the game and not get turned off because of "hackers" you can't kill when they miss.

This is probably the reason it exists and the primary reason it should stay.

Removing it and making some mechanics really convoluted will just repeat the chivalry cycle. I'm aware some people seem to want this, but I eeally would rather new players be impressed at high level fights rather than turned off or not even understanding how people do really basic and essential maneuvers like ftp

The easiest way to allow people to not call BS at everything is to easily let them do the same thing.

If a basic mechanic is so powerful and broken that someone would argue that no noob should do it easily, then it probably just shouldn't be in the game to begin with.

I am not sure why everyone refers to Chiv as if it was some big failure. It was an indie companies half assed first game that became way more popular and long lived than it deserved to. Look at vast array of AAA titles that have come and gone while chivalry maintains a population to this day. When I was a nub in chiv and I saw what people could do, the fact that I didn't understand what they were doing was a draw, not a drawback. It had a dynamic range of creative playstyles like I've never seen. The fact that I had to figure out you can parry after a feint on my own wasn't a deterrent... And seeing as how, unlike most skills in this game, you can literally just type a one sentence explanation "You can parry right after a feint." in chat and then they know. Not to mention there is going to be tutorial. and on top of that most kids immediately ask the internet "How do I pwn in (........)?" whatever game they are losing in at the time...

Baron 1551 2085
  • 5 Apr '18
 yourcrippledson

http://cookie.riimu.net/speed/ I found a click speed test... My fastest was 12 CPS. Wonder if this is bad or if anyone in the world can even beat this?

Knight 3303 6769
  • 6 Apr '18
 Bodkin

@yourcrippledson said:

@Bodkin said:
Auto ftp is pretty essential for noobs to understand the game and not get turned off because of "hackers" you can't kill when they miss.

This is probably the reason it exists and the primary reason it should stay.

Removing it and making some mechanics really convoluted will just repeat the chivalry cycle. I'm aware some people seem to want this, but I eeally would rather new players be impressed at high level fights rather than turned off or not even understanding how people do really basic and essential maneuvers like ftp

The easiest way to allow people to not call BS at everything is to easily let them do the same thing.

If a basic mechanic is so powerful and broken that someone would argue that no noob should do it easily, then it probably just shouldn't be in the game to begin with.

I am not sure why everyone refers to Chiv as if it was some big failure. It was an indie companies half assed first game that became way more popular and long lived than it deserved to. Look at vast array of AAA titles that have come and gone while chivalry maintains a population to this day. When I was a nub in chiv and I saw what people could do, the fact that I didn't understand what they were doing was a draw, not a drawback. It had a dynamic range of creative playstyles like I've never seen. The fact that I had to figure out you can parry after a feint on my own wasn't a deterrent... And seeing as how, unlike most skills in this game, you can literally just type a one sentence explanation "You can parry right after a feint." in chat and then they know. Not to mention there is going to be tutorial. and on top of that most kids immediately ask the internet "How do I pwn in (........)?" whatever game they are losing in at the time...

Chiv sold successfully but failed at retaining a player base comparable to how many owned it.

What made chivalry suffer was a lack of straightforwardness in actually getting good at the game. Many mechanics were unintentional or hidden. New players would play like normal for a while with other noobs and see this shit out of the blue and be like what tf?

They hated drags because they couldn't use them. People hated most of the wierd stuff because they simply couldn't do them or had no idea how. Keeping everything straightforward is what we need so this is a non-issue.

No mechanic should be convoluted, everything must be ez to accomplish in the overall toolbox. The skill ladder should come from out playing people who have access to the same tools, not from having knowledge of tools that others don't have, or the ability to modify said tools to work better.

Baron 1551 2085

@Bodkin said:
. The skill ladder should come from out playing people who have access to the same tools, not from having knowledge of tools that others don't have, or the ability to modify said tools to work better.

the issue is if you want to encourage a variety of playstyles you should expect binds to be modified to compliment the style of play of many players. I hardly see double clicking as an exploit. I make the controls "work better" for me. The controls feel like i could make them "work better" i should be able to, because like you said, we are outplaying each other, fighting the controls shouldn't be a barrier... i don't know if removing the mechanic is the right answer or just add some feature to balance all the schemes out, because right now a benign checkbox is giving discreetly giving those who decide to click it a slight advantage. Dis is bad.

And if the issue is making the game nub friendly, for a lot of players binding feint to the same button as parry is a means of SIMPLIFYING the controls. Making them "work better" for what the players preferences are going in.
There is enough to learn, so being able to transfer as many skills as you can is vital.

Once i click that box i have to rebind feint, yet another button you have to learn. And i honestly have no clue how i would manage to get used to pushing Q while i am doing all of the footwork required in this game. Getting used to that sounds like a nightmare tbh...

One more point. A controller has limited buttons. Without Feint and parry being on the same button, mine doesn't have enough..

Knight 3303 6769
  • 2
  • 6 Apr '18
 Bodkin

I'm not arguing double click should be removed.

Somewhere along the line I read someone saying autoftp is gay and shouldn't exist.

I'm only saying that every essential mechanic should be straightforward and easily done or people will never stick with the game and it will be less fun to play overall.

If all you want is to ftp just like chiv, all you need is for whatever is causing input delay to get fixed and then unclick that box. If you currently can't make double click your ftp, then that's a valid concern that I didn't know existed.

301 875
  • 6 Apr '18
 Naleaus

@Bodkin said:
Auto ftp is pretty essential for noobs to understand the game and not get turned off because of "hackers" you can't kill when they miss.

I'm fine with autoparry cause I'm lazy now, but this part is wrong. It's essential because it's easier for new players and sets everyone at an even playing field. It actually makes new players understand the game less though. They have no idea that the attack is being feinted then instantly parried.

This won't matter to start with, but as they get to higher skill levels, they won't understand to manually feint so they can delay a parry to avoid an easy punish. They also won't understand why they have to combo to parry again.

Need a good tutorial and for it all to be optional.

Baron 1551 2085

@Bodkin said:
I'm not arguing double click should be removed.

Somewhere along the line I read someone saying autoftp is gay and shouldn't exist.

I'm only saying that every essential mechanic should be straightforward and easily done or people will never stick with the game and it will be less fun to play overall.

If all you want is to ftp just like chiv, all you need is for whatever is causing input delay to get fixed and then unclick that box. If you currently can't make double click your ftp, then that's a valid concern that I didn't know existed.

Feint and parry being on rmb simplifies controls with 1 less button to learn for nubs so that argument can go either way.

Auto ftp checkbox shouldn't exist. If it must, it should exist as a keybind instead. So i can have my way of feinting and ftp. But i can bind FTP button for instant parry out of attack animation situations.

What do you think?

396 453
  • 6 Apr '18
 JasonBourne

Setup a macro

Baron 1551 2085
  • 6 Apr '18
 yourcrippledson

@JasonBourne said:
Setup a macro

This might work

Knight 693 1593
  • 6 Apr '18
 das

Removing autoftp wouldn't achieve any equality because people like me will just continue to feint with key and Logitech GPro macro their RMB to double click super fast, achieving the same effect.

Which is why I think it's a bit silly they nerfed the input buffer when parried/chambered without any option to adjust it. It makes a huge difference in chambering at 80 ping. I can solve it with GPro mouse macro I guess, but it's annoying that it would have to come to that.

Baron 1551 2085
  • 6 Apr '18
 yourcrippledson

I set up a macro on my mouse. Just have to teach myself to use it as a panic button now. I don't think i can properly skip recovery now tho?

Knight 292 904
  • 16 Apr '18
 GIRUGIRU

I've ways insisted that rmb=FTP bind should be the default input for feint to parry. The reason for this is because of the thousands of hours I've spent slaughtering noobs, I always witnessed them pathetically microfeint after they regret their attack input instead of doing a FTP that (they don't know) they want to do

It will make the game feel more responsive for newer players. Having FTP bound is also flat out superior than double rmb, because you can choose to Q->RMB but can also utilize the immediate parry speed

And, yes, obviously FTP bind will be faster than double rmb because 1 input is faster than two