If you recreate these results with a friend, stabbing from the same angles but without footwork or drags, I believe it would hit them normally. What I think is happening is that the tracer just isn't actually touching the player's body, and only registers once it had already gone through the player and in front of them. Might this be a tickrate issue?
The first clips were recorded in the official South America server (consistent 50-60ms ping in my end), and the last one in Meph's dedicated server (very consistent 35 - 50ms ping). My framerate is locked at 120, and the video recorded at 60fps. (Just in case this matters)
I don't think anybody would argue that these attacks shouldn't have been hits, except for maybe the last one, which was kinda on the edge of the parry angle. It really is a shame that outplaying opponents with creative and difficult moves isn't encouraged or even consistent at all, while the easiest ways to get over a defense are the most effective and encouraged.
Visually, it may be fair to say some of those should have hit. Gameplay wise I certainly wouldn’t want any of those hitting me. I’ll be the first to argue that they should not have been hits. Parries are already absurdly hard for such a basic mechanic which is so apparent in the new active parry (new AP is really nice btw). Waterfalls and z-stabs are hard to do but rewarding if you practice, as they should be. Make parry any harder and team play would be aids.
It's a fine line between attack manipulation / making things look good in duels and team fights, I think if you did those same attacks on someone who had to also focus on someone else, they probably would have gotten hit.
If parrying requires crazy aim in duels then it would be really fucking hard in an Xv1 situation. Plus, parries in Mordhau are much more timing based than location based compared to CMW - this is due a lot to being able to mess with timing a lot more in Mordhau, and also forms the fundamental difference between parries and blocks.
That being said, I'm sure that parry, clash, chamber and active parry angles aren't set in stone yet and will probably receive tweaks for a while anyways.
I disagree, parry should be a bit harder in terms of direction/location. 240 attack angles to choose from but 1 generic parry facing forward will block them anyways. The amount of leg shots you get against a shield is absurd but no one tries that shit against a 2h cause it's pointless.
It's not about the tightness of the parry angle anymore, but about consistency. In these clips, I was literally hitting them from their back, close to a 180 angle from their camera. Even if the parry had a 50% wider angle, it should have hit them. Literally.
These hits should always work or never work. Inconsistency is a terrible way yo balance. If this is fixed and parry becomes too hard, they can increase the parry angle. Otherwise it's a 50/50 on whether you get rewarded for completely outplaying your opponent.
These aren't slight sidestabs, they are literal backstabs.
Why should anyone bother with insanely complex sidedrags if they randomly do not work? This inconsistency just encourages people to keep a zero-effort offense that is, in a retarded backwards mindset, way more effective and rewarding.
Waterfalls and z-stabs are hard to do but rewarding if you practice
No, this video shows that I pulled off perfect full 180 angle Z-Stabs and they didn't register, not for an error in my technique but because of inconsistency in the hit registration.
Feint someone succesfully? You have a virtually guaranteed free hit, unless the defender outplays you and dodges or double parries.
Succesfully zstab or wessex somebody? Good luck boy, sometimes the hit registerd and sometimes it doesn't.
I think you're missing a few things and you're going off of visuals rather than the actual parry volume. Your stab tracer connects with the volume before it even reaches their back. It's also not anywhere close to 180 relative to their camera, but yes it is visually deceptive and I can see why you would think that. You don't lead your opponents in any of the clips (leading as in forcing them to footwork or look to a certain direction in a significant way). It's very evident in each clip because your opponents are staying center relative to your weapon's position. If you try to do z-stabs or waterfalls on a stationary target who doesn't move their camera to the right or left that much you will find it nearly impossible to land any of those hits. How is that not consistent? Show some clips where these are successful hits. I would say the things you're doing in these clips consistently never hit, as it should be.
There's also no real way to make this "consistent" as you want.
How can you not see that they're looking perfectly away from my stab? I hit their back and you can clearly see that I did not touch their parry beforeso, but AFTER the hit has gone through their backs?
I know how to sidestab people, I could do it against the best players in Chiv and I succesfully did it here, it just didn't register. In fact I played only with sidedrags for months in Chivalry just to practice, and did very well. That's not something I achieved without knowing how to sidestab properly.
I don't have clips of succesful sidestabs because there was no reason to save them, but trust me, this shit is not consistent at all. Crush already stated on Discord that this is an issue and they want to fix it, after I showed him this video.
These angles are nowhere near the actual parry angle values, you can clearly see that. I even marked the exact frames when the parries happen, which is AFTER THE ATTACK WENT THROUGH THEIR BACKS, not before.
Frise proves by A + B that there’s a backparry issue with a slowmo clip on which we clearly see it. There’s nothing to add... and moreover nothing to discuss.
If you have working eyes ofc.
Though, knowing it now, that’s really hard to see but that really happens IG.
Describing Frise's moves as weird jiggly shit takes away from the talent and footwork put into his attacks. He worked harder for those attacks than you would with a microdrag, chamber feint, etc, etc. These moves aren't obscene drags that feel like exploits either.
The latest update has nerfed parry slightly and some of my moves will actually work now but I don't think they've done enough yet to accommodate play styles that don't consist of just foot drags and micro drags mixed with token accels. Contrary to one of the above statements, Frise is leading them on by subtly flanking one way, winding up from the side they expect the attack and then hard flanking the other way. He is outplaying them and viable plays like this are what I miss from Chiv.
In my ideal vision of the game, chambers are about timing where parries are more about direction the way a shield is.
Okay buddy boy i figured out why they happened and i dont think its the same reason why you think they happen, its Not a registration problem buuut the first clip you had idk how the HECK he backparried you, since from the data i collected, that idle anim shared by zwei and greatsword and longsword actually has a weaker right side, stronger left side of parrybox.
No idea how zwei guy parried that, its actually super easy to exploit his right side of parry. For Bastard sword, estoc, messer anims, the left side is weaker than right side. I was told there is no weaker side but when I tested the parrybox i noticed a discrepancy so just to make sure im gonna show spook and what not to check if its not all just some crazy dream.
i got a pretty good rhythm of poleaxe backparrying me, hopefully i can reproduce it when i show spook but honestly no clue how that zwei boy backparried you, tried to see if maybe there was just some janky thing going on with where hes looking client side, server side, with respect to your client or some nerd stuff like that i dunno
@rob_owner said:
Okay buddy boy i figured out why they happened and i dont think its the same reason why you think they happen, its Not a registration problem buuut the first clip you had idk how the HECK he backparried you, since from the data i collected, that idle anim shared by zwei and greatsword and longsword actually has a weaker right side, stronger left side of parrybox.
No idea how zwei guy parried that, its actually super easy to exploit his right side of parry. For Bastard sword, estoc, messer anims, the left side is weaker than right side. I was told there is no weaker side but when I tested the parrybox i noticed a discrepancy so just to make sure im gonna show spook and what not to check if its not all just some crazy dream.
i got a pretty good rhythm of poleaxe backparrying me, hopefully i can reproduce it when i show spook but honestly no clue how that zwei boy backparried you, tried to see if maybe there was just some janky thing going on with where hes looking client side, server side, with respect to your client or some nerd stuff like that i dunno
I'm the zweiboi, I think what you say makes a lot of sense, because I usually try to parry with the screen centered on the opponent, just making some small last moment adjusts with the mouse to avoid drags and evil stabs, so maybe the server has a problem showing where people are looking precisely
@vanguard said:
I'm the zweiboi, I think what you say makes a lot of sense, because I usually try to parry with the screen centered on the opponent, just making some small last moment adjusts with the mouse to avoid drags and evil stabs, so maybe the server has a problem showing where people are looking precisely
I had remembered something about server controlled hit detection, so looked it up and found Marox stating: With UE4 we're now using a fully server-side authoritative model where we no longer trust clients.
This makes me believe that a lot of discrepancies of this nature could just be server related, since what the server sees is what you get. It could be related to what Rob said as well, so maybe Marox/Crushed can weigh in more if Rob's tests are inconclusive.
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- 1
25 Mar '18
FriseIf you recreate these results with a friend, stabbing from the same angles but without footwork or drags, I believe it would hit them normally. What I think is happening is that the tracer just isn't actually touching the player's body, and only registers once it had already gone through the player and in front of them. Might this be a tickrate issue?
The first clips were recorded in the official South America server (consistent 50-60ms ping in my end), and the last one in Meph's dedicated server (very consistent 35 - 50ms ping). My framerate is locked at 120, and the video recorded at 60fps. (Just in case this matters)
I don't think anybody would argue that these attacks shouldn't have been hits, except for maybe the last one, which was kinda on the edge of the parry angle. It really is a shame that outplaying opponents with creative and difficult moves isn't encouraged or even consistent at all, while the easiest ways to get over a defense are the most effective and encouraged.
26 Mar '18
s522662call me back when i can decelerate, accelerate, then decelerate my attack like in chivalry
26 Mar '18
wizardishVisually, it may be fair to say some of those should have hit. Gameplay wise I certainly wouldn’t want any of those hitting me. I’ll be the first to argue that they should not have been hits. Parries are already absurdly hard for such a basic mechanic which is so apparent in the new active parry (new AP is really nice btw). Waterfalls and z-stabs are hard to do but rewarding if you practice, as they should be. Make parry any harder and team play would be aids.
26 Mar '18
Jax — Community ManagerYeah wiz beat me to it.
It's a fine line between attack manipulation / making things look good in duels and team fights, I think if you did those same attacks on someone who had to also focus on someone else, they probably would have gotten hit.
If parrying requires crazy aim in duels then it would be really fucking hard in an Xv1 situation. Plus, parries in Mordhau are much more timing based than location based compared to CMW - this is due a lot to being able to mess with timing a lot more in Mordhau, and also forms the fundamental difference between parries and blocks.
That being said, I'm sure that parry, clash, chamber and active parry angles aren't set in stone yet and will probably receive tweaks for a while anyways.
26 Mar '18
Lionheart ChevalierI disagree, parry should be a bit harder in terms of direction/location. 240 attack angles to choose from but 1 generic parry facing forward will block them anyways. The amount of leg shots you get against a shield is absurd but no one tries that shit against a 2h cause it's pointless.
- 2
27 Mar '18
FriseIt's not about the tightness of the parry angle anymore, but about consistency. In these clips, I was literally hitting them from their back, close to a 180 angle from their camera. Even if the parry had a 50% wider angle, it should have hit them. Literally.
These hits should always work or never work. Inconsistency is a terrible way yo balance. If this is fixed and parry becomes too hard, they can increase the parry angle. Otherwise it's a 50/50 on whether you get rewarded for completely outplaying your opponent.
These aren't slight sidestabs, they are literal backstabs.
Why should anyone bother with insanely complex sidedrags if they randomly do not work? This inconsistency just encourages people to keep a zero-effort offense that is, in a retarded backwards mindset, way more effective and rewarding.
No, this video shows that I pulled off perfect full 180 angle Z-Stabs and they didn't register, not for an error in my technique but because of inconsistency in the hit registration.
Feint someone succesfully? You have a virtually guaranteed free hit, unless the defender outplays you and dodges or double parries.
Succesfully zstab or wessex somebody? Good luck boy, sometimes the hit registerd and sometimes it doesn't.
How does this make any sense?
- 1
27 Mar '18
wizardishI think you're missing a few things and you're going off of visuals rather than the actual parry volume. Your stab tracer connects with the volume before it even reaches their back. It's also not anywhere close to 180 relative to their camera, but yes it is visually deceptive and I can see why you would think that. You don't lead your opponents in any of the clips (leading as in forcing them to footwork or look to a certain direction in a significant way). It's very evident in each clip because your opponents are staying center relative to your weapon's position. If you try to do z-stabs or waterfalls on a stationary target who doesn't move their camera to the right or left that much you will find it nearly impossible to land any of those hits. How is that not consistent? Show some clips where these are successful hits. I would say the things you're doing in these clips consistently never hit, as it should be.
There's also no real way to make this "consistent" as you want.
27 Mar '18
FriseHow can you not see that they're looking perfectly away from my stab? I hit their back and you can clearly see that I did not touch their parry beforeso, but AFTER the hit has gone through their backs?
I know how to sidestab people, I could do it against the best players in Chiv and I succesfully did it here, it just didn't register. In fact I played only with sidedrags for months in Chivalry just to practice, and did very well. That's not something I achieved without knowing how to sidestab properly.
I don't have clips of succesful sidestabs because there was no reason to save them, but trust me, this shit is not consistent at all. Crush already stated on Discord that this is an issue and they want to fix it, after I showed him this video.
These angles are nowhere near the actual parry angle values, you can clearly see that. I even marked the exact frames when the parries happen, which is AFTER THE ATTACK WENT THROUGH THEIR BACKS, not before.
Just look at the video.
27 Mar '18
LincsSo basically, you did some wiggly camera shit while winding your attack up and that's supposed to earn you a free pass through their parry box?
28 Mar '18
RaegarthFrise proves by A + B that there’s a backparry issue with a slowmo clip on which we clearly see it. There’s nothing to add... and moreover nothing to discuss.
If you have working eyes ofc.
Though, knowing it now, that’s really hard to see but that really happens IG.
28 Mar '18
Lionheart ChevalierDescribing Frise's moves as weird jiggly shit takes away from the talent and footwork put into his attacks. He worked harder for those attacks than you would with a microdrag, chamber feint, etc, etc. These moves aren't obscene drags that feel like exploits either.
The latest update has nerfed parry slightly and some of my moves will actually work now but I don't think they've done enough yet to accommodate play styles that don't consist of just foot drags and micro drags mixed with token accels. Contrary to one of the above statements, Frise is leading them on by subtly flanking one way, winding up from the side they expect the attack and then hard flanking the other way. He is outplaying them and viable plays like this are what I miss from Chiv.
In my ideal vision of the game, chambers are about timing where parries are more about direction the way a shield is.
29 Mar '18
rob_ownerOkay buddy boy i figured out why they happened and i dont think its the same reason why you think they happen, its Not a registration problem buuut the first clip you had idk how the HECK he backparried you, since from the data i collected, that idle anim shared by zwei and greatsword and longsword actually has a weaker right side, stronger left side of parrybox.
No idea how zwei guy parried that, its actually super easy to exploit his right side of parry. For Bastard sword, estoc, messer anims, the left side is weaker than right side. I was told there is no weaker side but when I tested the parrybox i noticed a discrepancy so just to make sure im gonna show spook and what not to check if its not all just some crazy dream.
i got a pretty good rhythm of poleaxe backparrying me, hopefully i can reproduce it when i show spook but honestly no clue how that zwei boy backparried you, tried to see if maybe there was just some janky thing going on with where hes looking client side, server side, with respect to your client or some nerd stuff like that i dunno
29 Mar '18
vanguardI'm the zweiboi, I think what you say makes a lot of sense, because I usually try to parry with the screen centered on the opponent, just making some small last moment adjusts with the mouse to avoid drags and evil stabs, so maybe the server has a problem showing where people are looking precisely
- 1
29 Mar '18
NaleausI had remembered something about server controlled hit detection, so looked it up and found Marox stating: With UE4 we're now using a fully server-side authoritative model where we no longer trust clients.
This makes me believe that a lot of discrepancies of this nature could just be server related, since what the server sees is what you get. It could be related to what Rob said as well, so maybe Marox/Crushed can weigh in more if Rob's tests are inconclusive.