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Alpha Build #14 Discussion Thread

1315 2881
  • 2 Apr '18
 Monsteri

The auto-ftp is default because otherwise normal players without macros would be at a disadvantage.

Knight 941 2569
  • 2 Apr '18
 Pred

It should be pretty easy to enforce autoFTP to be on par with manual one, with an unskippable animation in between, right?

Duke 2266 4010
  • 2 Apr '18
 Huggles

@LuxCandidus said:
I do not think the game is in a good spot currently.

  • Attacks are way too fast. The release portion of attacks has always been too short, but as of this patch it is even shorter. This makes even attacks with little acceleration to them feel too quick to react to, let alone chamber. The instant attack problem plaguing the game has only been exacerbated. You can now lock players in a perpetual flinched state.

  • Parrying feels unreliable. Other than it requiring more precision, I cannot put my finger on what about it has changed, but here is some feedback: It no longer feels instant - It feels like if an attack hits me during the first few frames of my parry I will take damage. A lot of the time it also seems like the parry animation plays right after I take a hit. The absurd speed of certain attacks also means it is not always possible to parry in time unless your reaction time is highly above average. For a basic mechanic this is overkill. It was fine in the previous patch.

  • Weapon balance is all over the place. Heavy, costly weapons like the battleaxe and eveningstar have instant stabs, small arms like the rapier and mace can either kill you in two hits or two seconds. Note that the issue here is not how weak or powerful a certain weapon is, but how weapons are balanced relative to one another. For instance, the difference between slow and fast weapons is meagre, largely due to how much attacks can be accelerated, so there is less incentive to take a weapon because it is faster. Similarly, taking a weapon such as the eveningstar due to its damage is also pointless when the mace and warhammer are just as powerful at half the cost.
    I know there are nuances such as turn cap and morph cost that differentiate weapons further, but the balance seems no less questionable. I have a suggestion: Give each weapon a brief description. This will also help new players understand the idea behind certain weapons without requiring them to look at the highly technical list of values below the weapon (which would probably intimidate them if it was all they had to base their choice of weapon on).

  • EDIT: Stab drags are horrendous. They genuinely look like an exploit and range from unrealistic to absolutely undecipherable. I assume the only reason they exist is so chambering stabs does not become trivial, but virtually any other solution would be better than tolerating stab drags in their current state.

  • Feint woes. I will save it for the next patch in which feints will be altered, but there is still something on my mind: A while ago someone pointed out attacks require very little commitment as you can cancel out of them for the majority of their duration, which makes it very difficult to punish players who miss an attack or exercise poor judgement in when to perform an attack. Moreover it means players can attack at the same time as their opponent, and if they are about to be hit first, they can simply feint-to-parry. This does promote gambling and a playstyle in which the opponent's actions matter less, though I do not see how it can be fixed without the player's control over their character being severely limited. I am interested to hear if others have thought of any solutions so far.

  • Shields are still a chore to fight. This issue might be the hardest to correct. There are quite a few discussions on this already.

  • projectile spam is horrendous. Definitely limit the number of smoke bombs / fire bombs the player spawns with. In the future it would be nice to also make them cost a lot more unless the player has a "support / strategist" perk which makes such equipment much cheaper but in exchange you will lack perk points for other goodies. People seem to be of the opinion the projectile spam will die down once they are no longer new, but I highly doubt that. There will always be players who find it hilarious to run around and bombard the map with smoke and fire. Furthermore, there will always be new players for whom the idea is still fresh and novel.

Before you tell me none of these are issues once you have put six billion hours into the game, take a moment to consider how new players would feel about some of these mechanics in their current state and whether they would be motivated to put even ten hours into the game.

And keep in mind also that it is possible to correct a broken mechanic without it becoming so simple that even new players would master it in five minutes. A lot of you struggle with that concept.

The only thing I can agree with here is feint to parry and certain stab drags.

Weapon speeds matter a shit ton, even if your weapon is only a tiny bit faster you have a massive advantage when it comes to clashing, chambering, micro feints, and first hit flinch. Weapon balance on the whole is actually pretty damn good. Evening star is by no means instant, the only people who say this don't really understand the game. It's just most people see big heavy weapon and assume it must always be slow and easy to gamble. An evening star accel will always be significantly slower than an arming sword accel. So weapon balance and "instant" attacks will be resolved by basic knowledge of footwork, positioning, and attack angling.

Parry is very consistent, you just have to use footwork now. It is no longer the case where you can either just stand still and parry everything or walk straight backwards and parry everything. You have to use proper footwork if you want to have solid defense. Parry is still very easy, it just isn't an absolute joke anymore.

Also, you say that you shoudln't have to have 100+ hours to git gud but really the game has no depth if this isn't the case. Of course, you can't pin all the problems on "git gud" and here is what I agree with.

Feint to parry and stab drags are legitimate issues. It is very weird for a stab to go past someone only to be dragged to the side and like the edge of your blade hitting them and doing stab damage. I'm not very hopeful of this being fixed as it seems much more like a core gameplay issue that probably won't be fixed without making gameplay feel like shit. Best I think we can hope for is better animations.

However, late feint to parry is a huge issue that is fixable. I think nerfing the feint window would allow players to consistently punish misses and significantly reduce gambling. Meanwhile, the early feints would still allow you to cancel an attack very early if you know you fucked up and allow you to react to other attacks coming at you in a teamfight. This would remarkably improve the game and remove gambly elements.

Knight 627 2068
  • 3 Apr '18
 LuxCandidus

@Huggles said:

...So weapon balance and "instant" attacks will be resolved by basic knowledge of footwork, positioning, and attack angling.

Come on, Huggles. Look at battleaxe stabs being absurdly quick for no reason. Look at how weapons that are supposed to be slow such as the bardiche can be accelerated to where they swing faster than an arming sword (not an accelerated one). I cannot find that video showcasing ripostes which last like three frames, but I have encountered quite a lot of those in this patch.

People think it raises the skill ceiling but it does the complete opposite. It feels like someone is pressing the fast forward button at random intervals whenever you are up against a weapon that is expected to be slow. This one issue with the game bleeds into everything else: you cannot wait until the last moment to parry an attack because attacks can suddenly go faster than you can react to, so you have to panic parry a lot of the time. This also makes dealing with feints tremendously worse, and so on. Current attack speeds are also something new players could not even comprehend. Learning the game while up against someone who knows how to swing three times faster than you does not make for a fun experience.

I think the single best thing the developers can do for the game is limit attack acceleration. A close second is making the release phase last much longer.

@Huggles said:
Also, you say that you shoudln't have to have 100+ hours to git gud but really the game has no depth if this isn't the case. Of course, you can't pin all the problems on "git gud" and here is what I agree with.

No no, it should definitely take hundreds of hours to get anywhere close to the top, but people either take this too far and think basic concepts like parrying should also take hundreds of hours to learn, or they use it to excuse broken mechanics, such as when people defended bad animations because it takes more skill to read them.

Duke 2266 4010
  • 3 Apr '18
 Huggles

@LuxCandidus said:

@Huggles said:

...So weapon balance and "instant" attacks will be resolved by basic knowledge of footwork, positioning, and attack angling.

Come on, Huggles. Look at battleaxe stabs being absurdly quick for no reason. Look at how weapons that are supposed to be slow such as the bardiche can be accelerated to where they swing faster than an arming sword (not an accelerated one). I cannot find that video showcasing ripostes which last like three frames, but I have encountered quite a lot of those in this patch.

People think it raises the skill ceiling but it does the complete opposite. It feels like someone is pressing the fast forward button at random intervals whenever you are up against a weapon that is expected to be slow. This one issue with the game bleeds into everything else: you cannot wait until the last moment to parry an attack because attacks can suddenly go faster than you can react to, so you have to panic parry a lot of the time. This also makes dealing with feints tremendously worse, and so on. Current attack speeds are also something new players could not even comprehend. Learning the game while up against someone who knows how to swing three times faster than you does not make for a fun experience.

I think the single best thing the developers can do for the game is limit attack acceleration. A close second is making the release phase last much longer.

@Huggles said:
Also, you say that you shoudln't have to have 100+ hours to git gud but really the game has no depth if this isn't the case. Of course, you can't pin all the problems on "git gud" and here is what I agree with.

No no, it should definitely take hundreds of hours to get anywhere close to the top, but people either take this too far and think basic concepts like parrying should also take hundreds of hours to learn, or they use it to excuse broken mechanics, such as when people defended bad animations because it takes more skill to read them.

Battleaxe stab does trash damage, that is why it is so fast. And actually, imho faster weapons are more limited and predictable in their speed so not really ideal. Very easy to chamber that kinda thing.

You shouldn't just be holding s trying to wait till the last second to parry. You should be using proper footwork. Running to people's sides, maintaining distance, and constantly pressuring. You're not supposed to just be able to backpedal and read/defend everything no problem. Footwork is key.

Slow weapon accels have to be faster than normal attacks of faster weapons otherwise I can just attack at the same time you attack and hit you first no matter what. Then slow weapons are worthless and the game is just gamble spam. Angle, positioning, and footwork mate.

Conscript 4564 6302
  • 4 Apr '18
 vanguard

@LuxCandidus said:
This one issue with the game bleeds into everything else: you cannot wait until the last moment to parry an attack because attacks can suddenly go faster than you can react to, so you have to panic parry a lot of the time.

Undeniable imho, this only gets more evident with chambering but it does bleed into everything else to a great extent.

1430 2175

Can we get gamepad sensitivity increased in Patch 15? It literally takes two and a half seconds for me to turn 360 at max sensitivity and the pain of keeping certain players on my screen is very real. I was last man standing in a skirmish the other night and afterwards everyone was commenting on how low my sensitivity was as they spectated my fighting.

I should not have to buy the third party software Plou recommended just to play well with a gamepad.

1090 6149
  • 17 Apr '18
 crushed — Art

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