Mordhau

Remove or redesign the binds system

Baron 1601 5082
  • 6 Mar '18
 Lincs

From what we've seen so far, using attack angle binds takes all the complexity involved in the 240 system and burns it at the stake. Strike binds are used by the highest-level players to grind out insanely fast accels at the perfect angle every time, or extremely difficult to block footdrags. They can repeatedly combo these binds ad nauseum with next to no repercussion. While I can usually hold my own against these bind users, I'm definitely worried for newer, casual players and therefore the longevity of the game. I can definitely see new players in the future getting mowed down by bind users, accusing them of 'exploits' and rage quitting. To many, these binds will undermine the complexity and self-expression put in place by the combat as it is.

Not only does it take away that factor of complexity, but it's also arguably a flaw in the game design. You've advertised the 240 degree angle system throughout the game's development as the core method of combat, and I can only assume that this will continue when you put a tutorial into the game. Having a secret and objectively easier way to play the game, which goes against the established design philosophy, is definitely yikes territory.

Please, devs. I really feel like the game's in a good place right now, and I like where it's going in the future. But I have to respectfully ask that something be done about the binds.

Knight 925 2540
  • 6 Mar '18
 Pred

240 system is clunky at its core, in a game which requires so much camera movement.

If it's really the new players experience you care about, they will have an easier time with binds as well.

Baron 1601 5082
  • 6 Mar '18
 Lincs

@Pred said:
240 system is clunky at its core, in a game which requires so much camera movement.

If it's really the new players experience you care about, they will have an easier time with binds as well.

Will they, though?

Bound attacks were a big part of why chivalry combat was so reliant on swing manipulation and cheese. I'm convinced that with some streamlining and a UI element to highlight where the attack is starting from, 240 will be perfectly fine.

21 33
Knight 925 2540
  • 6 Mar '18
 Pred

@Lincs said:

@Pred said:
240 system is clunky at its core, in a game which requires so much camera movement.

If it's really the new players experience you care about, they will have an easier time with binds as well.

Will they, though?

Bound attacks were a big part of why chivalry combat was so reliant on swing manipulation and cheese.

Wut.

Chiv was cheese because mechanics and balance was cheese.

New players will struggle with most basic stuff, having an option where a certain button does a certain action will be much easier for them than operating a camera which is at the same time an attack imput tool.

Knight 528 3376
  • 6 Mar '18
 rob_owner

that setting where you can hold lmb and then move the mouse to input your attack direction is so much nicer than the raw 240, because i dont have to move to a direction, click, then move back. You can do tiny flickshots normally but the room for screwing up is massive, if you hold lmb during what you notice is a riposte windup anim, you can wait to see which direction it appears to be coming from, and then just move the camera at it by an ATOM to try and chamber.

it was really fun but apparently there were input problems and the room for error with directional is not only massive but AMBIGUOUS because if you mess up pressing a bind button, its obvious because you can hopefully tell what button you pressed, but without some nice ui and having it more optimized i guess, it can be vague, not just for what direction you attack from but for riposting since the 2 inputs, look and click, can make some people miss their riposte window, i assume its integration is not finalized.

its likely that because a bind requires 1 input, it will always be more optimized than direction which will average 2 inputs, the movement of camera and clicking or vice versa. Being full fledged in either of these skill trees may not be as OP as leveling them both up in unison. Though, when finished, the directional may offer advantages that makes the 2 input hardly an inconvenience , especially when it is coupled with binds.

Conscript 4546 6279
  • 7 Mar '18
 vanguard

I'm only using the 240 system, I have no problems doing acccels or delays with it tbh, I don't get why people say binds are better on this sense.

The only problem always present that I see is the attack going on a random direction sometimes. I want to windup a left to right overhead but it does a right to left overhead instead, these sort of things. Happens much more often when riposting or when trying to chamber under pressure.

Although since I started playing this has always been a problem, it is getting better now, I just think it is painfully hard to get used to it, if you want to get competitive right now, you won't use this system only, because you will have to learn to use it, it is not easy and tbh can be quite frustrating sometimes, feels like bullshit when you try to chamber but the attack direction comes from your ass instead the direction you actualy wanted. But I do believe it is possible to be consistent with it in competitive level.

The benefit I see is that it is fun to use tbh. Really fucking fun imho, it is one the main reasons I want to keep playing this game.

What rob says is true about the "hold lmb to use" mode, made it a lot better to play and I got used to it I think, because playing the old Slasher build felt really fucked up.

A crosshair indicating the direction you are looking at would help a lot.

Baron 1601 5082
  • 7 Mar '18
 Lincs

@rob_owner said:
that setting where you can hold lmb and then move the mouse to input your attack direction is so much nicer than the raw 240, because i dont have to move to a direction, click, then move back. You can do tiny flickshots normally but the room for screwing up is massive, if you hold lmb during what you notice is a riposte windup anim, you can wait to see which direction it appears to be coming from, and then just move the camera at it by an ATOM to try and chamber.

it was really fun but apparently there were input problems and the room for error with directional is not only massive but AMBIGUOUS because if you mess up pressing a bind button, its obvious because you can hopefully tell what button you pressed, but without some nice ui and having it more optimized i guess, it can be vague, not just for what direction you attack from but for riposting since the 2 inputs, look and click, can make some people miss their riposte window, i assume its integration is not finalized.

its likely that because a bind requires 1 input, it will always be more optimized than direction which will average 2 inputs, the movement of camera and clicking or vice versa. Being full fledged in either of these skill trees may not be as OP as leveling them both up in unison. Though, when finished, the directional may offer advantages that makes the 2 input hardly an inconvenience , especially when it is coupled with binds.

this is a really good way of explaining it, it's made me feel a bit better about the situation

thanks

Knight 254 691

I like binds, that’s what I’m used to. I’ve dabbled in the 240 attacks but I couldn’t really see myself doing it. Why not use both to their advantages instead of using just one. Looking for quick and predictable attacks then use the binds. Like your attacks coming from nonpredictable direction (compared to preset binds) then use 240. Using binds leave you vulnerable because you only have a limited range of attacks while 240 allows you to hit from all over the place. If your in a heated situation then binds might work so you can immediately responde to attacks. Try using both. It shouldn’t be either or, they both exist for a reason. Cheers

Mercenary 15 23
Count 788 3012

To me the 240 system is a good idea with lackluster implementation. That being said it could very well improve in reliability in the near future, and honestly I hope it does. I feel it is self evident that both the 240 and keybind systems should be available. Removing either is literally a winless scenario for the devs, and would alienate large segments of the current and future player base. I know the 240 diehards may not like to hear this but... The current fuzzy and unreliable nature of the 240 system is also likely to run off new players. The obvious solution is not to remove one or the other, but rather to improve a substandard input method.

Personally if I had to choose between them I'd make 240 dig it's own grave, hobble it, and leaving it for the crows before I'd ever let harm come to the keybind system.

Then I would celebrate with a victory dinner at my local Red Lobster. Their Cheddar Bay Biscuits are made HOT and fresh to order, and pair perfectly with the new and improved garlic butter dipping sauce.

Baron 1601 5082
  • 8 Mar '18
 Lincs

@EatAtRedLobster said:
To me the 240 system is a good idea with lackluster implementation. That being said it could very well improve in reliability in the near future, and honestly I hope it does. I feel it is self evident that both the 240 and keybind systems should be available. Removing either is literally a winless scenario for the devs, and would alienate large segments of the current and future player base. I know the 240 diehards may not like to hear this but... The current fuzzy and unreliable nature of the 240 system is also likely to run off new players. The obvious solution is not to remove one or the other, but rather to improve a substandard input method.

Personally if I had to choose between them I'd make 240 dig it's own grave, hobble it, and leaving it for the crows before I'd ever let harm come to the keybind system.

Then I would celebrate with a victory dinner at my local Red Lobster. Their Cheddar Bay Biscuits are made HOT and fresh to order, and pair perfectly with the new and improved garlic butter dipping sauce.

you're goddamn right on those cheddar bay biscuits my lobstery friend

the food of the gods right there, the third best human discovery behind fire and penicillin

Duke 2266 4007
  • 8 Mar '18
 Huggles

240 system by design limits footwork potential as movement is tied to camera movement as well. It makes your attacks more telegraphed and predictable as a whole. It drastically limits you as a player and is straight up inferior to binds, greatly decreases the skill ceiling as well.

Conscript 4546 6279
  • 3
  • 8 Mar '18
 vanguard

@Huggles said:
240 system by design limits footwork potential as movement is tied to camera movement as well.

This is not a problem tbh, as you need to make a real subtle movement in the camera to input a attack. It won't mess with footwork at all, unless u are using it absolutely wrong.

It makes your attacks more telegraphed and predictable as a whole.

Also not a problem at all, for the same reason above. I have a video to show u this, will edit this post soon

Here the video, I'm the one doing the overheads at the start of it, I don't see any movement before the windup that could telegraph what I was about to do imho

It drastically limits you as a player and is straight up inferior to binds, greatly decreases the skill ceiling as well.

I wouldn't say it drastically limits, it does add sort of a random chance for you to wind-up a wrong attack, but that's it. It is indeed inferior to binds in this aspect imho, and this random factor that is added doesn't greatly decreases the skill ceiling, just a bit imho, I can play and win normally most of the time against tryhard cunts. I think that with practice you can reduce this random factor.

I agree with your point in this last part tbh just not the intensity of it.

Knight 925 2540
  • 8 Mar '18
 Pred

@vanguard said:
I wouldn't say it drastically limits, it does add sort of a random chance for you to wind-up a wrong attack, but that's it. It is indeed inferior to binds in this aspect imho, and this random factor that is added doesn't greatly decreases the skill ceiling, just a bit imho, I can play and win normally most of the time against tryhard cunts. I think that with practice you can reduce this random factor.

But you are a dedicated player and you spent couple hundred hours getting frustrated, right? Imagine the new players who won't be so emotionally invested in this game/genre as all us basement dwellers. They will probaably just get pissed and quit.

Conscript 4546 6279
  • 9 Mar '18
 vanguard

@Pred said:

@vanguard said:
I wouldn't say it drastically limits, it does add sort of a random chance for you to wind-up a wrong attack, but that's it. It is indeed inferior to binds in this aspect imho, and this random factor that is added doesn't greatly decreases the skill ceiling, just a bit imho, I can play and win normally most of the time against tryhard cunts. I think that with practice you can reduce this random factor.

But you are a dedicated player and you spent couple hundred hours getting frustrated, right? Imagine the new players who won't be so emotionally invested in this game/genre as all us basement dwellers. They will probaably just get pissed and quit.

Absolutely!

I mentioned this before in other threads as well, while you can learn to use the system and it is fun and all, it is exeptionaly difficult compared to your other option, that are binds. And this makes the whole thing really frustrating, because you can lose a lot of time trying to learn the 240 system, still not be good with it, only to find out latter that you could have been using binds all this time and completely avoiding attacking in random directions.

I just don't think it is so much worse then binds, it is worse to some point, yeah, but I don't think you are required to use binds to be competitive, for instance. I think it is possible to do so with the 240 system, but it will require huge tryhardism.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the system is in a good position right now, and want it to be improved really, but this is a hard subject for me to talk about honestly because I can't suggest effective stuff to make it better, as I am a caveman in computer subjects, so the best I could do is "HUE devman like, make it better so simple man xD". The HUD indication thing might be a very good thing to make the system better, in the sector of how responsive the system is, this is where I can't give any suggestions tbh.

Baron 1601 5082
  • 10 Mar '18
 Lincs

Everybody's been making good points here - I feel a lot better about them having the two systems in place now.

So, devs, the universal feedback here seems to be better 240 control and/or helpful crosshair indicators, if that's at all possible :)

Conscript 4546 6279
  • 10 Mar '18
 vanguard

Yeah, I feel like in the tutorial it would be a good idea to mention both the 240 system and the binds, tell the player a bit about the difference between about these 2 systems. When talking about basic controls, give the player the option to chose between them or make his own. But for this, we need a official default bind settings maybe.

Baron 1601 5082
  • 10 Mar '18
 Lincs

@vanguard said:
Yeah, I feel like in the tutorial it would be a good idea to mention both the 240 system and the binds, tell the player a bit about the difference between about these 2 systems. When talking about basic controls, give the player the option to chose between them or make his own. But for this, we need a official default bind settings maybe.

Yeah, a good, easy to use set of default binds is a really good idea. One of the reasons I thought new played might struggle with them is the added problem of going into settings and keying in all the binds by themselves. That's typically something that people with lots of experience in the game work on doing.

I'd imagine a combat tutorial with multiple stages, one of them being "binds vs. angles"

Have seymour guide the player through switching the systems back, and explain the difference between the two. Stuff like that.

Knight 466 909
  • 1
  • 10 Mar '18
 wierHL

@rob_owner said:
that setting where you can hold lmb and then move the mouse to input your attack direction is so much nicer than the raw 240, because i dont have to move to a direction, click, then move back. You can do tiny flickshots normally but the room for screwing up is massive, if you hold lmb during what you notice is a riposte windup anim, you can wait to see which direction it appears to be coming from, and then just move the camera at it by an ATOM to try and chamber.

Which setting are you talking about? I can't seem to find it.