Mordhau
Mordhau Merch
Check out our merch shop!

Distinguishing Between Drags and Accels

Conscript 4564 6302
  • 2
  • 5 Feb '18
 vanguard

Yeah Giru, you are the only decent player in the whole world, ok man great, I guess there are absolutely no problems with the animations then, since you said so. You are the ideal guy to talk about balance right, we see on this thread. Disagree with you, and the brigade comes to meme the opposition to death and shit on the whole thread!

Knight 240 388
  • 5 Feb '18
 NitroSperg6K

Attempts to agree in order to diffuse the situation
still gets screeched at by autist
:^(

Conscript 4564 6302
  • 5 Feb '18
 vanguard

Poor Burrito did nothing wrong, damn you evil autists!11!

Mercenary 225 567
  • 1
  • 5 Feb '18
 Izıl

The only autistic screeching is from you tbh

Knight 240 388
Conscript 4564 6302
  • 5 Feb '18
 vanguard

Now that this thread is completely shitted, why don't we try to keep a constructive conversation in the other one? There are many arguments there, but you shouldn't even consider my arguments right, as I am nothing but a free weekend autist. Maybe try to answer what Das said?

Knight 292 904
  • 1
  • 5 Feb '18
 GIRUGIRU

The animations do need and will be improved, but you will never be able to stand still and chamber attacks from someone who is able to freely swing manipulate on you - that has absolutely nothing to do with the animations and is no way some kind of benchmark

Animation improvements are blending and windup related as well

Believe me I've spent hours in discord with wizardish and boner purely regarding balance and brought some of the devs in for discussions, what you're talking about is simply not the same so do not try to angle your obfuscated viewpoint with theirs

Conscript 4564 6302
  • 1
  • 5 Feb '18
 vanguard

@GIRUGIRU said:
The animations do and will be improved, but you will never be able to stand still and chamber attacks from someone who is able to freely swing manipulate on you - that has absolutely nothing to do with the animations and is no way some kind of benchmark

Believe me I've spent hours in discord with wizardish and boner purely regarding balance and brought some of the devs in for discussions, what you're talking about is simply not the same so do not try to angle your obfuscated viewpoint with theirs

What am I talking about though? Did you understood my point?

Even when you footwork, these unreadable shit happens and as I told you, the video is just to show how bad it can get. Maybe that is why the animations will be improved in the first place?

Knight 292 904
  • 5 Feb '18
 GIRUGIRU

Aslong as you can Parry consistently there is virtually no issue. Chambers are a risk/reward mechanic and if you - as an individual - can't justify the risk don't do them - simple as

Chambers are not a gamble though, but that doesn't mean you can consistently chamber everything thrown at you nor should you ever be able to vs a powerful opponent

If you want I can go into further detail on why that is the case

Conscript 4564 6302
  • 1
  • 5 Feb '18
 vanguard

Here, this is my point, and I think Das complement it quite well.

I want to be able to read both the windup, that is, the direction the attack is coming from (overhead, uppercut etc) and the release, that is, if a attack is a delayed one or a accelerated one imho. This would make defense fair in a way that, with practice, you can actualy read stuff; would make dragging harder, as you would have to do more then just move your mouse a few inches; and would completely eliminate the gamble aspect of chambers. Probably would help in footwork as well, because if you know what you are dealing with, you can react properly to it not only timing wise, but as positioning wise as well.
If things are overal more readable, parrying can be made harder, requiring to look more precisely where the attack is coming from. It also would be no problem if chambers got even harder to perform both timing and angle wise, because you can actually read stuff.

Das replies:

@das said:
vanguard basically summed it up; by "fixing" what makes the game stupid, the devs can instead focus on making the barebone and "sensible" stuff of the combat system more difficult: aiming parries and chamber timings.

What I haven't seen anyone yet address are the reasons why the devs or certain players may be reluctant to get rid of instant accels in the first place. So, I'll address them:

  1. "Defense will be too easy, and the game will become stamina warfare at high levels."
  2. "Faster fights are objectively more fun."
  3. "More difficult parries will ruin 1vX."

As aforementioned, making things readable and seem sensible benefits not only low level players, but also gives the devs room to instead tweak core mechanics like parrying and chambering so that they still remain challenging for high level players. But let's presume that even that isn't enough to prevent a hypothetical meta where players are chambering and parrying everything in 10-minute duels that ultimately boil down to stamina warfare. A few more adjustments could be made to make such a scenario even less likely and, even in the case of "stamina warfare", keep things interesting:

Remove chamber morph direction restriction, probably remove normal morph direction restriction as well.

This would give players greater offensive capability as they're able to more greatly redirect their strikes while still maintaining a fast tempo. With stricter aiming requirements and such, these would be excellent in redirecting an enemy's parry to aim the wrong way. Kaboom, chambers are more rewarding and are still challenging for parries as well. If animating or balancing demands it, have cross-direction morphs take longer/more stamina.

Make swapping to small secondary weapons fast and allow parrying, but there's still a draw delay before you can attack/chamber.

Stamm'ing out won't be a death sentence anymore as you can swap to your secondary and parry, but being unable to attack/chamber means you're vulnerable to feints. You'll still be low on stamina as well and are susceptible to being completely disarmed. I think this would incentivize players to think about their loadout/picking secondaries and also make stamm'ing less scary in general. With less of a fear on stamina management, overly aggressive playstyles aren't completely discouraged either even if the meta takes a turn for the turtles.

With how unreadable everything is, 1vX is already silly, especially when people start missing on purpose for their teammates to hit you during your parry release - or for them to change their mind on a whim and hit you with a last-millisecond spear stab drag. I'd gladly take a tougher aiming requirement if the visuals were more consistent - at least that way, I'd know what's hitting me and when. That, and difficult aiming is simply more suiting for an FPS game.


@GIRUGIRU said:
Chambers are not a gamble though, but that doesn't mean you can consistently chamber everything thrown at you nor should you ever be able to vs a powerful opponent

You don't have to be all that powerful to fuck with chambers though. Just a really small mouse movement is enough, and that is really easy to do. The video I posted shows how little you have to move your mouse to fuck with a chamber.

Knight 292 904
  • 5 Feb '18
 GIRUGIRU

Yes, I have read through the thread and taken into account what you are discussing

The point of the last major combat update was to bring back the offensive meta - chamber meta with weak drags and easy chambers made the game painful to play - cancer in 1vX cancer in teamplay and chamber ONLY centric duels. This was already known from the slasher test I don't know why triternion tested it again in mordhau but it's gone again, and for good reason

Offence is supposed to be easier than defence, it makes it possible for weaker players to.kill extremely powerful players and makes the combat more brutal and fast paced

If you want to look at a turtling meta For Honor is a perfect example, we all know how well that game did

I disagree entirely with things being "unreadable" - yes anims can and will be improved but in no way shape or form are they unreadable and that's where the l2p issue comes in. Maybe watch footage from double trouble/frank/rag and you will see how consistent these guys defence is.

Count 671 1131
  • 5 Feb '18
 Zexis

Giru is right. Dragging is supposed to counter chambers and you're not supposed to chamber every attack or else it should be very difficult.

That said, the blending and transitions are being changed and will make it easier to read windup>release transitions. Then we can see how chambers and everything else are affected.

How much do you expect animation changes to make it easier to react to accels, though? It will always be challenging to react to certain strikes in a free form swing manipulation game. I don't see any way to prevent that without adding lock-on and canned animations and swing directions.

2428 4937
3234 4264
  • 1
  • 5 Feb '18
 Havoc

Lol get gud!!!!11

derailer

Inb4 lock because goon squad derailed a good thread that pointed out some serious issues a large portion of the community has with mordhau atm

Knight 240 388
  • 5 Feb '18
 NitroSperg6K

You don't have to be all that powerful to fuck with chambers though.

Depends on who you're fighting. It's already getting to the stage where people are chambering drags and accels consistently.
Unless you want to remove drags, there's not much more to discuss. Fairly certain an animation update is coming soon, so just hold out until then.

3234 4264
  • 1
  • 5 Feb '18
 Havoc

@BurritoWarrior said:

You don't have to be all that powerful to fuck with chambers though.

Depends on who you're fighting. It's already getting to the stage where people are chambering drags and accels consistently.
Unless you want to remove drags, there's not much more to discuss. Fairly certain an animation update is coming soon, so just hold out until then.

Fairly certain they want some way to be able to distinguish between a drag an accel during wind-up or at least a lot better visually during the actual swing, so it isn't a gamble to attempt a chamber or early parry against a riposte accel/chamber, as you can easily be punished by the good ol' accel drag rinse and repeat.

Conscript 4564 6302
  • 5 Feb '18
 vanguard

@GIRUGIRU said:

I disagree entirely with things being "unreadable" - yes anims can and will be improved but in no way shape or form are they unreadable and that's where the l2p issue comes in. Maybe watch footage from double trouble/frank/rag and you will see how consistent these guys defence is.

Well, I can read telegraphed drags, when people try to hit me with at the very end of the tracers or crouch and lookdown to accelerate. But subtle drags, the ones that you just change the timing a little bit, these I can't read for shit. I have absolutely no problems parrying them, as these little drags doesn't work against parries, but chambering this shit is terrible imho. It looks like a normal, not dragged attack, so you go for a chamber because fucking obvious attack right, but at the last moment you just move you mouse a tiny bit and BAM your chamber got fucked.

Mercenary 2193 3914
  • 5 Feb '18
 EruTheTeapot

They are like quicksand m'duderino

They pick some victim and circle-jerk around him with 4-5+ people and fuck the thread up, shamey

Knight 292 904
  • 5 Feb '18
 GIRUGIRU

if you want to hop in a VC about it then join my discord or message me on the mordhau one, it's too complex of a discussion to be held on shitty forums

Count 331 1394
  • 5 Feb '18
 RingMaster

It seems the prerequisite to be able to simply read drags and accels is to have a literal season's worth hours in Chiv and/or have completely no-lifed Mordhau since alpha released.

Not intending to be mean but some of you Mordhau gods need to realise that not everyone can sink as much time in it as you, of course the person who plays more is going to be better than the casual player (which is the way it should be, obviously) but it shouldn't be to the point that casuals are required to completely no life this game just to be able to read drags and accels, that's retarded. I've put in a generous 200 hours in this game (bare in mind i never played Chiv) and i still can't fathom reading drags and accels, of course i could just be shit but going by everyone elses concerns in the community i don't think that's the case.

i personally might regret saying this, but i think it would actually be better for the game to have a lower skill ceiling and a hell of a lot smoother learning curve IF it meant that drags and accels became more of an accesible part of the game, i wished we could have a maximised skill ceiling AND accesible drags but i don't think that's possible.

It's no coincidence that the people defending the current drags and are arguing "git gud" are the gods in this game, of course you guys are going to say that and i get it, you've knuckled down and done it and you think everyone else should too. The thought of having the time you put in to get good at the game to then be diminished by players who haven't (can't) is lame.

But going back to what i previously said, we all don't have that kind of time, and if it were just the case of players who play more will beat players who play less then there wouldn't be an issue, but it's the fact that if you don't no life this game and/or have a shitload of hours in Chiv, you're locked out of (arguably) the most powerful thing in the game, which is reading drags/accels.

One final thing, i think it'd be helpful to remind everyone that the vast majority of us are fighting on the same side, the side of wanting this game to be the best it can be and to live as long as possible.