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Distinguishing Between Drags and Accels

Knight 26 83
  • 2
  • 2 Feb '18
 GucciLoafers

Distinguishing a drag from an acceleration is not actually possible due to the timing overlap in which you can be hit from an accel and a drag respectively.

E.G. if you attempt a read for a drag, the point at which you have to wait to effectively read the drag is overlapped by the timing in which you can be hit from an accel, meaning that you have to wait past the point of being able to be hit before you can actually parry and chamber consistently for the longer kinds of drags.

You may be able to guesswork your way into reading a drag from an accel by the position of their torso but the turn cap on all weapons makes turning from an accel to a drag and vice versa too easy to do, resulting in an inconsistent form of reading. This concept is most noticeable by mixing between looking into accels in windup and doing the same but dragging after you have done the accel movement.

Wait until you can parry a chamber or drag, be hit by an accel, parry early for the accel and you get hit by a drag because they can interchange them after you have accommodated for the timing of the weapon.

I presume that with the animation update, it wouldn't fix this issue but would rather mask it with more noticeable and snappier movements, but the timing goes untouched meaning that the issue will still be present.

The issue could be solved with more turn cap (Not ideal, but may be a necessary evil) in the release state of attacks or making release state of an attack slower so it doesn't come down as fast which will make up for the overlap in which a drag can be distinguished from an accel.

This is my take on the turn cap and timings of weapons in Mordhau, I am open to anyone who would be willing to present arguments against mine but I haven't come to see any as of yet.

GIFS
Defense - https://gfycat.com/SafeScholarlyBorzoi
Attack - https://gfycat.com/UnfitWeepyBoutu
Video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjwTVqK04zA
Instant attack - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8r5lcFFUP0&feature=youtu.be
Instant attack #2 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFbowbEfjEY&feature=youtu.be

Knight 21 56
  • 2 Feb '18
 Snowy

you realise that you're not meant to chamber every attack?

Conscript 4564 6302
  • 1
  • 2 Feb '18
 vanguard

You realise that the comrade is talking about distinguishing between delays and accels, right?

Duchess 6897 9885
  • 2 Feb '18
 Sir Zombie

Judging by the video, he could just parry and not be hit tbch

Duke 341 974
  • 2 Feb '18
 Ruby Rhoderick

Great post and welcome to the forums! Others will state that this topic has been brought up several times before, but it needs to be said again and again until this is corrected. I believe that this is a core issue with Mordhau currently; though I do think it can be fixed. Whether that be changes to the animations, an increased turn cap, or another solution we haven't thought of, this needs to be addressed.

Duke 356 384
  • 2 Feb '18
 AFluffyKnight

I have an issue with some of the recovery animations of certain actions, but making everything perfectly readable is a surefire way to make this game boring as fuck.

Competition kinda thrives on the fact that no one is perfect.

Knight 528 3386
  • 2 Feb '18
 rob_owner

those little dodges in that video are nice, i do them too and wonder how they'll be when the % change is reverted and you can get hit off screen

Duke 341 974
  • 2 Feb '18
 Ruby Rhoderick

@AFluffyKnight said:
I have an issue with some of the recovery animations of certain actions, but making everything perfectly readable is a surefire way to make this game boring as fuck.

Competition kinda thrives on the fact that no one is perfect.

I couldn't disagree more. Implementing readable animations won't create a boring game. Sure, losing a fight is often the result of making a mistake, but that shouldn't be due to inconsistent, and frankly, poorly designed animations. If the animations are perfected, there will still be the need to read your opponent's moves. Just because you think you've adapted to the current state of the game, doesn't mean there shouldn't be an attempt to make it better.

Conscript 4564 6302
  • 1
  • 2 Feb '18
 vanguard

@AFluffyKnight said:
I have an issue with some of the recovery animations of certain actions, but making everything perfectly readable is a surefire way to make this game boring as fuck.

Competition kinda thrives on the fact that no one is perfect.

Unreadable animations lower the skill level of the game, as any noob move its mouse a few inches and you can't chamber anything anymore, making so parrying becomes your safest bet, which in turn makes feints cancerous. If animations are readable, then you will have to outplay your opponent, which is where, imho, the true skill and fun on the game is.

I find truly dumb to die to these unreadable shit tbh, it isn't fun, I don't feel skilled at all doing these shit. It is literaly a clutch tbh, when I feel like tryharding I just start doing these subtle drags and I win as long as my opponent tries to chamber anything. Not only that, as it is completely unintuitive for newer players, as they won't even know why they get hit, it is not visible in any way.

It isn't fair, it lowers the skill ceiling, it is confusing, it makes you gamble when you want to chamber etc.

Duke 356 384
  • 2 Feb '18
 AFluffyKnight

Jesus animations are not as broken as you people are saying. They need work. They aren't perfect and neither is any human.

Knight 26 83
  • 2 Feb '18
 GucciLoafers

Coming from 5000 hours in previous melee titles I can tell you that having distinguishable accels and drags is literally 80% of the skill cap, atm the game is just a gamble fest, if it continues there is no point in even attempting to get better at the game and i'd probably just quit tbh.

Baron 36 345
  • 3 Feb '18
 Trix

@Snowy said:
you realise that you're not meant to chamber every attack?

You already can't chamber 100% of attacks due to the current implementation of lockout. This is fine, because the player can learn when and where chambers are acceptable. (e.g. Mixups on certain weapons render chambering pretty much useless, as well as 1vX/Team fights if you were hit shortly before you attempt a chamber.) Being unable to chamber an attack outside of lockout due to animations being borderline impossible to read isn't good game design. Currently, to be able to consistently defend against the accell to drag attack, you need to 'gamble' a chamber attempt. If your opponent decides to now convert their accell into a drag, you're forced to feint to parry. Unless you are some sort of chamber or parry god, there is really no other way around this. As players improve, they'll keep finding more ways to exploit this.

It's a sticky situation for the developers to be in, but it's something that will need to be addressed to maintain consistency in top tier play.

Knight 21 56
  • 3 Feb '18
 Snowy

@GucciLoafers said:
Coming from 5000 hours in previous melee titles I can tell you that having distinguishable accels and drags is literally 80% of the skill cap, atm the game is just a gamble fest, if it continues there is no point in even attempting to get better at the game and i'd probably just quit tbh.

runescape doesn't count brother

Conscript 4564 6302
  • 1
  • 3 Feb '18
 vanguard

@AFluffyKnight said:
Jesus animations are not as broken as you people are saying. They need work. They aren't perfect and neither is any human.

Well they are objectively unreadable. This game isn't immune to critiques and imho it is better for us to say it now, then wait for it to release and have to deal with a shitstorm of bad steam reviews and videos. This is what a alpha is for isn't it.

52 40

@Snowy said:

@GucciLoafers said:
Coming from 5000 hours in previous melee titles I can tell you that having distinguishable accels and drags is literally 80% of the skill cap, atm the game is just a gamble fest, if it continues there is no point in even attempting to get better at the game and i'd probably just quit tbh.

runescape doesn't count brother

There are a number of people with over 2000 hours in Chivalry alone.

Count 331 1394
  • 2
  • 3 Feb '18
 RingMaster

When i kill someone with a drag that i know i made look like an accel, i don't feel any gratification or that i outplayed them, i feel like i cheesed them with a bullshit coinflip move. The drag/accel gameplay at the moment is like trying to differentiate lemons and limes when the limes could be painted yellow and lemons could be painted green, and both are being thrown at you respectively.

Knight 21 56
  • 3 Feb '18
 Snowy

@PhillyCheesesteak said:

@Snowy said:

@GucciLoafers said:
Coming from 5000 hours in previous melee titles I can tell you that having distinguishable accels and drags is literally 80% of the skill cap, atm the game is just a gamble fest, if it continues there is no point in even attempting to get better at the game and i'd probably just quit tbh.

runescape doesn't count brother

There are a number of people with over 2000 hours in Chivalry alone.
whats a chivalry?
and 2000 hours LOL no lives

Sellsword 19 70
  • 1
  • 3 Feb '18
 Devilstro

@Snowy said:

@PhillyCheesesteak said:

@Snowy said:

@GucciLoafers said:
Coming from 5000 hours in previous melee titles I can tell you that having distinguishable accels and drags is literally 80% of the skill cap, atm the game is just a gamble fest, if it continues there is no point in even attempting to get better at the game and i'd probably just quit tbh.

runescape doesn't count brother

There are a number of people with over 2000 hours in Chivalry alone.
whats a chivalry?
and 2000 hours LOL no lives

That's less than 1 hour a day, sweetie. You can still have a life and devote 1 hour a day to gaming. I bet you use more than 1 hour :P

Knight 292 904
  • 4 Feb '18
 GIRUGIRU

readings drags + accels is a joke compared to how it was in difficult it was Chiv.

i think you need to be devoting more time to the game before you can make statements like "i can't distinguish drag+accel".

Trying to chamber like the way you are doing in those clips - you're trying to run before u can stand up. Pointless trying to chamber if you cant maintain a consistent defence with parries. It's like going for 1 taps in CSGO and nothing else

Conscript 4564 6302
  • 2
  • 4 Feb '18
 vanguard

@GIRUGIRU said:
readings drags + accels is a joke compared to how it was in difficult it was Chiv.

You must be playing with players that drag and telegraph like they are playing chiv then tbh.

Shit was hard to read in chiv, but here it isn't all that better. You can Parry them easily because the parrying time is much more forgiving, so unless you Parry ridiculously early, you are safe against both accels and delays against most weapons.

With chambers, you gotta either hard read it, predict your opponent attack or gamble as the timing is much less forgiving. The only skill based option here is not viable, that would be hard reading it.

i think you need to be devoting more time to the game before you can make statements like "i can't distinguish drag+accel".

Check out the other thread about this same subject, look at the people who liked my original post, or posted themselves there, or liked some other post that agreed with this claim that they are unreadable. There are some pretty good dudes there if that is the problem.

Trying to chamber like the way you are doing in those clips - you're trying to run before u can stand up. Pointless trying to chamber if you cant maintain a consistent defence with parries. It's like going for 1 taps in CSGO and nothing else

The point is that you can't read them when you want to chamber. Can you read them? Seriously?

How the hell is this readable man.

This sort of thing happens in fights all the time, it isn't even hard to do these drags. In fact, it is really easy to perform it.