Mordhau

The readability of drags:

Conscript 4562 6301
  • 3
  • 29 Jan '18
 vanguard

This is what I mean with drags readability, they are way too subtle and hard to tell the difference when done properly. Notice how when not in slomo, you literally can't tell the diference between a accelerated or a delayed overhead. The stabs are also hard as shit to read, but I'd say they are a bit less then the overheads, sometimes. This question extends itself to the whole combat system, with every weapon, with every attack angle; these on the video are just the most glaring ones imho.

What do you guys think? Imho, this makes so chambering becomes a gamble, thus if you want to play safe, you won't chamber but try to hard-read feints instead, as it is a safer option to deal with feints then chambering. Seriously, some fights I do like 3, 4 attacks, and if my opponent tries to chamber all of them, he ends up eating these 3 or 4 attacks, same when I try to chamber what they throw at me in a row, and I'm not even talking about the flinch thing, it truly is the lack of readability what is going on as sometimes me or my opponent doesn't even combo, but we eat the hit while trying to chamber it anyways.

Some dude on reddit said that attacks should not be 100% readable otherwise the game becomes stale. Ok, that makes sense, but what is the treshold? For me, this is way too unreadable, it is unreliable to try and chamber attacks tbh.

Does the new animations affect this particular readability thing with drags? Honestly, I have no problem to tell the direction the attack is coming from when I try to chamber. What fucks with my chambers attempts are A) these animations that are really hard to tell the difference and B) goddamn 240 system having it's own will sometimes, lmao.

Thanks to Frise for helping me on this noble quest for science and development, mankind should benefit greatly comrade gud video u did tbh jesus probably loves you, I'm not really sure.


I think it is worth mentioning, the method we used to make the video and reach these conclusions was simple, I asked Frise to chamber everything I throwed at him, so I did normal overheads without manipulating the tracers, accels and delays and with no order and without telling him what I was going to do, so this way I forced him to hard-read my attacks. Same with the stabs.

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  • 2
  • 29 Jan '18
 s522662

this is just a flaw with how the tracer works in mordhau, i think they should add the (re edit) drag phases like in chivalry to make drags readable at the same time effective.

Mercenary 179 612
  • 29 Jan '18
 Stauxie

This might not be the best example but relates to what you're talking about: https://clips.twitch.tv/ToughCrypticCougarImGlitch

I agree that animations blend a bit too well and makes drags especially difficult to read. I have learned to be more patient and it has ended up working out for me so far. It is something that I definitely think should be looked at (which they are) to make the game as good looking as possible.

Mercenary 116 446
  • 29 Jan '18
 Eranox

just gamble and say you read it

Knight 668 995

A perfect post. Hopefully the people that neglects the fact that the game has big issues, will now reconsider.

This is NOT how drags should work.
(Imo)

94 102
  • 29 Jan '18
 TheShade

The current animations makes it hard to know when release is coming, which makes accels harder to read, as well as drags if you are trying to chamber. New animations will hopefully be a game changer. I do think chambers in general are balanced atm though.

Knight 86 133
  • 29 Jan '18
 Raegarth

Let’s rename chambering into...

chambambling.

To be serious, my question is for the guys that have 250 fps on this game. Are the drags readable for you ? I always told myself it was because I had shitty fps

Knight 668 995

Nope not really. Drags are pretty gay to read atm

Conscript 4562 6301
  • 1
  • 29 Jan '18
 vanguard

@Stauxie said:
This might not be the best example but relates to what you're talking about: https://clips.twitch.tv/ToughCrypticCougarImGlitch

Yeah this is exactly the same thing brother, every weapon can do these hard as shit to read drags

I agree that animations blend a bit too well and makes drags especially difficult to read. I have learned to be more patient and it has ended up working out for me so far. It is something that I definitely think should be looked at (which they are) to make the game as good looking as possible.

I try to be patient as well, but when I do I end up eating a accelerated attack out of nowhere lmao. So then I go full gambleroni or just try to chamber as little as possible because chambers preserve muh stamina and I tend to combo feint to parry too much trying to outreach my opponent, so stamina is kill and I'm forced to chamber

Knight 2267 4085
  • 30 Jan '18
 Runagate

This is my biggest issue with the game currently. Good post, people should bump it more.

Baron 2 9
  • 31 Jan '18
 Stalker

I agree. At the moment chambering feels more like gambling because you have no way of knowing if your timing is good or bad on these unreadable strikes.

Duke 2266 4009
  • 31 Jan '18
 Huggles

If you guys make drags too ez to read while standing still the game will be even slower paced and fights will drag on much longer. The point imho is that you aren't supposed to be able to read shit effectively by standing still. You should incorporate footwork that forces/baits your opponent to throw attacks that you can predict better. Like if you started running to his left while attempting a chamber he would be forced to accel if he wants to hit you so you would chamber him, or he doesn't and he misses and you get a free hit.

IF drags get easier to read, then defense needs an added component of difficulty. Like aiming at the wep.

Conscript 4562 6301
  • 3
  • 31 Jan '18
 vanguard

@Huggles said:
Like if you started running to his left while attempting a chamber he would be forced to accel if he wants to hit you so you would chamber him, or he doesn't and he misses and you get a free hit.

If he runned to my left I could either A) let him delay himself into death or B) just make a really small mouse movement to accel and behead his ass. Both cases he would not be able to read and would be a gamble if he tried to chamber.

@Huggles said:
You should incorporate footwork that forces/baits your opponent to throw attacks that you can predict better.

We did this test because when we are fighting, these unreadable shit happens all the time. Wtf Huggles, do you think we are what, completely noobs who doesn't know mordhau or chiv? We know all this more then enough, we do this all the time, and we eat unreadable attacks all the time anyways lmao.

The video is just to show how unreadable it can get, besides, if the video I posted is not valid, then here:

https://clips.twitch.tv/ToughCrypticCougarImGlitch

Tell me you can read this shit lmao. Get ANY video people make on this game and you will see these same unreadable attacks tbh, even the one posted by Marox on the beta thread. If you don't see it, then idk comrade, maybe you should try fight more competent players. Bodkin knows how to do these drags, fight him tbh, see if you can chamber his shit consisntently.

IF drags get easier to read, then defense needs an added component of difficulty. Like aiming at the wep.

Yeah, then footdrags become cancerous as fuck.

Idk why you want the game to become this unreadable mess in the defense part tbh. I don't find the game slow at all, tbh I don't even really understand this argument of yours very well. Fights ends literally in 3 or 4 hits, the longest fights last about 30 secs. I don't get your point imho.

Mordhau, at the moment, is full of unreadable attacks. I really don't know how this can possibly be healthy for the game.

Duke 2266 4009
  • 1
  • 31 Jan '18
 Huggles

@vanguard said:

@Huggles said:
Like if you started running to his left while attempting a chamber he would be forced to accel if he wants to hit you so you would chamber him, or he doesn't and he misses and you get a free hit.

If he runned to my left I could either A) let him delay himself into death or B) just make a really small mouse movement to accel and behead his ass. Both cases he would not be able to read and would be a gamble, where the safest bet is to parry instead of chambering.

We did this test because when we are fighting, these unreadable shit happens all the time.

The video is just to show how unreadable it can get, besides, if the video I posted is not valid, then here:

https://clips.twitch.tv/ToughCrypticCougarImGlitch

Tell me you can read this shit lmao. Get ANY video people make on this game and you will see these same unreadable attacks tbh, even the one posted by Marox on the beta thread. If you don't see it, then idk comrade, maybe you should try fight more competent players. Bodkin knows how to do these drags, fight him tbh, see if you can chamber his shit consisntently.

IF drags get easier to read, then defense needs an added component of difficulty. Like aiming at the wep.

Yeah, then footdrags become cancerous as fuck.

Idk why you want the game to become this unreadable mess in the defense part tbh. I don't find the game slow at all, tbh I don't even really understand this argument of yours very well. Fights ends literally in 3 or 4 hits, the longest fights last about 30 secs. I don't get your point imho.

Mordhau, at the moment, is full of unreadable attacks. I really don't know how this can possibly be healthy for the game.

The guy in the clip was walking, not sprinting. Also I said to run to the other side of the attack, not towards it. If he had sprinted tho, he would have forced the chamber. People like june and wizardish do this shit all the time and chamber very consistently. You aren't supposed to be able to read things easily while standing still.

I beat bodkin very consistently, so idk your point. Also almost all the people who pay consistently NA are pretty competent players. So this idea that I just need to fight gud people and the game is unreadable gamblefest is pretty bullshit tbh.

I don't like the drag heavy gameplay and I don't like how weird windup to release transition is at all. So it's not like I disagree with you. But the game isn't a gamble fest, chambers shouldn't be easy or the main mode of defense, and defense def does not need to be easier.

I am very much for making drags much more readable and telegraphed and require good footwork to pull off but then we need another component to defense. You can almost remove foot drags entirely if you were to just make the parry box longer on the bottom really so that you only have to look very slightly down to block leg hits.

Conscript 4562 6301
  • 3
  • 31 Jan '18
 vanguard

@Huggles said:

@vanguard said:

@Huggles said:
Like if you started running to his left while attempting a chamber he would be forced to accel if he wants to hit you so you would chamber him, or he doesn't and he misses and you get a free hit.

If he runned to my left I could either A) let him delay himself into death or B) just make a really small mouse movement to accel and behead his ass. Both cases he would not be able to read and would be a gamble, where the safest bet is to parry instead of chambering.

We did this test because when we are fighting, these unreadable shit happens all the time.

The video is just to show how unreadable it can get, besides, if the video I posted is not valid, then here:

https://clips.twitch.tv/ToughCrypticCougarImGlitch

Tell me you can read this shit lmao. Get ANY video people make on this game and you will see these same unreadable attacks tbh, even the one posted by Marox on the beta thread. If you don't see it, then idk comrade, maybe you should try fight more competent players. Bodkin knows how to do these drags, fight him tbh, see if you can chamber his shit consisntently.

IF drags get easier to read, then defense needs an added component of difficulty. Like aiming at the wep.

Yeah, then footdrags become cancerous as fuck.

Idk why you want the game to become this unreadable mess in the defense part tbh. I don't find the game slow at all, tbh I don't even really understand this argument of yours very well. Fights ends literally in 3 or 4 hits, the longest fights last about 30 secs. I don't get your point imho.

Mordhau, at the moment, is full of unreadable attacks. I really don't know how this can possibly be healthy for the game.

The guy in the clip was walking, not sprinting. Also I said to run to the other side of the attack, not towards it. If he had sprinted tho, he would have forced the chamber. People like june and wizardish do this shit all the time and chamber very consistently. You aren't supposed to be able to read things easily while standing still.

If he was running, it wouldn't change anything, you just have to drag a bit more and that's it. And, what if he sprints away from the attack, thinking it will be a delay, but the dude accel that shit instead? My point is that to fuck a chamber you just need a really subtle mouse movement that is, in practice, unreadable. It is not hard to read, it is unreadable tbh.

I beat bodkin very consistently, so idk your point. Also almost all the people who pay consistently NA are pretty competent players. So this idea that I just need to fight gud people and the game is unreadable gamblefest is pretty bullshit tbh.

Not the point, I'm talking about reading drags in order to chamber, not beat the guy. I never said the game is a unreadable gamblefest lmao, dont strawman me Huggles pls

I don't like the drag heavy gameplay and I don't like how weird windup to release transition is at all. So it's not like I disagree with you. But the game isn't a gamble fest, chambers shouldn't be easy or the main mode of defense, and defense def does not need to be easier.

I'm not saying the game is a gamble fest, I'm saying chambering is. I find parrying fine as it is tbh I can parry everything no problemo, and you are forced to drag a lot to bypass parries, making so your attacks gets more readable. Chambers, on the other hand, you just need to make a really, REALLY small mouse movement to delay or accel it, to the point you can't tell the difference imho, making so chambering becomes a fucko.

@Huggles said:
I am very much for making drags much more readable and telegraphed and require good footwork to pull off but then we need another component to defense.

I agree with this tbh Huggles my friend, I think we need drags to be harder to make, right now it is literally just move a bit your mouse and you do something completely unreadable. It is just too easy to fuck with chamber attempts imho.

Conscript 4562 6301
  • 1 Feb '18
 vanguard

I'd like to hear a devman opinion on this subject tbh. Are we understanding the game badly? Is it supposed to be like this?

Baron 129 311
  • 1 Feb '18
 2cool2care

@vanguard said:
I'd like to hear a devman opinion on this subject tbh. Are we understanding the game badly? Is it supposed to be like this?

I may have miss something but, isn't there an animation overhaul soon ?

Knight 1269 3808
  • 1 Feb '18
 Frise

It's not about making drags easier to defend, it's about making them readable and consistent. Once that is achieved, you can buff drags in a better way than just justifying flaws in the game.

Make drags actually properly readable, then make chambers stricter.

Knight 693 1593
  • 1 Feb '18
 das

@Frise said:
It's not about making drags easier to defend, it's about making them readable and consistent. Once that is achieved, you can buff drags in a better way than just justifying flaws in the game.

Make drags actually properly readable, then make chambers stricter.

Ding ding ding. The less stupid accels and drags are, the more devs can shift the focus on things like stricter chambers or parry aiming and such.

Count 671 1131
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  • 1 Feb '18
 Zexis

I don't think animations will be a magic fix-all though it should help with reading release transitions.

It's not about making drags easier to defend, it's about making them readable and consistent

Frise I don't think you always properly communicate your ideas: what does it mean to be "readable"? To me, making drags more readable = easier defense. This is also why Crush tells you to stop trying to chamber everything, you have to be more specific with what you want or people will make assumptions.

It is always going to be hard to read certain strikes. How should that be changed, exactly? When we say we want them more readable, that's like telling a web designer you want your site to "pop" more.