Mordhau

Patch 12 thoughts and problems

Count 24 95
  • 21 Dec '17
 June

After a few hours with the patch I've found it to have some questionable changes. I'm curious how other people feel about this stuff too.

Last 15% of strike release tracers now no longer deal damage
Good idea, poorly implemented. Now it feels like the beginning of your attack and end just ghost through enemies. An animation change is needed here to go along with this.

Strike chamber/parry window reduced by 50ms
These changes were made to compensate for the drag changes but I feel like this hurts chambers more. With the drag changes it was mostly large, overzealous drags that were removed. These were never a problem for chambering because they were either easy to read outright or left you with plenty of time to ftp. This means that they removed something that was irrelevant to chambering but nerfed chambering anyways. Now slash chambers are down to 200ms. Factor in ping plus the fact that drags don't really beat parries but rek chambers makes this the first stage of making chambering obsolete. But there's more.

Brought back riposte feint with a small feint window
Adjusted feint lockout - early feints are now less clunky and easier to use for chamber baits
Riposte feints. Who even wanted these? They were removed once before and now they've been brought back. When I read the patch notes I thought nothing of it, figured they'd just be micro feints that are easy to read. So far this is not the case at all. Sure maybe they are micro feints, but they are micro feints that are coming from the fastest move in the game. Hell, if you put some work into it you can actually feint quite late. Factor in the fact that you can start your attack inside your enemies body means that, no, these are not as readable as I thought. Good luck reading this shit in the heat of battle.
Then you think, hey, feints are beat by chambers right? just gotta chamber the riposte (which btw was already barely possible, only time you could ever chamber a riposte was when the enemy was predictable) Even if you manage to read the riposte angle and go for a counter chamber it almost doesn't matter. If the enemy has a weapon of similar speed or faster than yours they can actually punish you before your counter chamber even lands thanks to the feint lockout change. Feint into attack will hit before a chamber attempt now which is it's own fucked up thing.
You can't compare riposte feint to chamber feint. One takes skill, is much slower and more choreographed, and (was) countered by other chambers.
Also I lol when I think about all the noobs that complained about feints in chiv. You had an excellent counter to feints that, even if it took a lot of skill would have made the casual audience much more accepting of this game. But guess what guys? If you thought feints were bad before wait 'til you try our game

No changes made to stab drags
The fact that I can take any weapon, release a stab on the right side of someone and bring it all the way around and hit them on the left is ridiculous. Of course I'm not saying they should be removed, just toned down.

So to summarize:
Chambers are harder to do. Pulling off this difficult move now only rewards you with some extra stamina. Parries are better than ever. Ripostes are better than ever. Feints are better than ever.
Feints and ripostes will become the meta, with chambers taking a backseat.
What game am I playing again?

Count 671 1117
  • 21 Dec '17
 Zexis

agreed. chambers got rekt this patch. they are still useful but the lowered window + return of riposte feints buffs ripostes nicely. a nice side effect is I don't bother trying to chamber stab drags as much : )

as for the drag changes, I like the mechanical result but visually it's a bandaid, players will be confused by the end of their swing or spins just thudding against an enemy.

Duke 5134 11071
  • 21 Dec '17
 Jax — Community Manager

Well thought out post, but I haven't put enough time in with build 12 yet to give any meaningful insight. I'll update this when I have.

Knight 122 258
  • 1
  • 21 Dec '17
 Vin¢

@June said:
Last 15% of strike release tracers now no longer deal damage
Good idea, poorly implemented.

I'm fairly sure that a dev mentioned that they were going to tone down this effect. I'm not too sure what a good animation/effect to notify of this happening would actually look like, but if a good one were found then I wouldn't object.

Now slash chambers are down to 200ms. Factor in ping plus the fact that drags don't really beat parries but rek chambers makes this the first stage of making chambering obsolete.

From what I've seen, people are still stubbornly chambering a lot, so I'd dispute that they're going to become "obselete". There seems to be a bit of a fundamental disagreement between those who think that chambers should be easy enough to reliably use on almost every attack in a high level duel, and those who think that they shouldn't. I personally prefer the latter partly since the alternative would makes 1vX totally cancerous. Chambers should have a relatively high risk. If I know you're going to try and chamber every attack, that should make the duel very easy for me. On the last patch, that was not the case at all, and chambering every hit was a legitimate strategy. I'd prefer to increase the risk, like it is now, and possibly increase the reward too - that makes the game much more varied and fun than a chamber spam war where whoever has the lowest combined reaction time and ping wins by default.

Riposte feints

Sort of agree here. One of the reasons that chamber feints arent too bad to deal with is because you already know the angle that the feint will come from, which makes counter-chambering a lot easier. With riposte feints no such counter is available. Additionally, since most of the riposte animations are totally shit (just do an alt-overhead riposte on halberd and watch the arms clip through eachother) the animations can be very difficult to read.

The fact that I can take any weapon, release a stab on the right side of someone and bring it all the way around and hit them on the left is ridiculous. Of course I'm not saying they should be removed, just toned down.

If stabs are really easy to chamber then it just sort of becomes pointless to stab or stab feint. So there should be a fair amount of room for stab dragging, IMO.

Count 405 1015
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  • 21 Dec '17
 Hadeus

First of all, I just want to say that June and I have experimented with quite a few playstyles sparring with each other. This isnt just some rage driven, amateur response to the game. We have actually sunk 300 hours into Mordhau Alpha already, and plenty into Chivalry to understand what makes this game both challenging and fun at the same time.


Last 15% of strike release tracers now no longer deal damage

Drags and Footdrags alone are still possible. I have been able to execute them. However, they arent as exagerrated (or effective) as before. This is going to lead to more morph dragging. Which isnt necesarilly bad. Drags are still viable. Perhaps devs could experiment with adjusting the animation to accuratly reflect the strike. Also, stab drags are hard to deal with atm, but they should still be possible. Drags are essential to this game. Removing them will lead to Deadliest Warrior type of linear fights. I dont think anyone wants that.


Strike chamber/parry window reduced by 50ms

Chambering was already fine pre patch 12. Lowering the window and factoring in high ping will lead to people bit*hing about how chambers dont work/unresponsive. You just made chambering harder and ripsote feints easier, a mechanic that is as rewarding as chambering but easier to execute.


Brought back riposte feint with a small feint window
Adjusted feint lockout - early feints are now less clunky and easier to use for chamber baits

Im with June here. Who wanted these?

The riposte feint is a microfeint, yes, but imagine this with fast weapon ripostes such as the memehammer (cough warhammer) or bastard sword accels. You cannot read/differentiate between an attack or a feint with a weapon that fast. Its pure guesswork.

I also combined a riposte feint with a body feint and its pretty damn unreadable (facehugging range).

Chamber feints actually took skill. Why? Because you have to match an attacks angle, time it right, and then feint it - its usually very rewarding if you time it right. Whereas,
Riposte feints + body feint equates to little skill involved by right click mouse in general direction, and shake it while feinting - results in a high reward payoff (like chamber feints)

This mechanic was not needed. It will not lead to balance.


In summary,
I dont mind the drag nerf. But please, Triternion, continuing to gimp drags even more may appease some people on this forum, but also turn veterans of this genre away - who have put in the time and effort to learn how to drag and counter drags. Its not impossible, it simply requires effort, which is something that enhances the skill cieling. I hate to be that guy, but some people really do need to 'git gud'. A drag heavy facehugging playstyle can be punished if your tactical about it. Ask June how he proved that to me :)

I remain skeptical about readding a cheesy feint riposte mechanic that involves little to no skill, yet is as rewarding as a more difficult chamber feint.

Conscript 4227 5324
  • 21 Dec '17
 vanguard

Idk what huge skill there is in just turning your mouse away from the direction that the attack is comming, or turn it into said attack, and why this is so much more skill based then feinting a riposte. There are problems with draggin alright, but I think they are animation related. A drag heavy fighting stile, while manageable to be fought against, it isn't fun at all imho with these animations we have right now because it forces you to gamble.

What fun there is in having to gamble your deffense technics because you can't know if its gonna be a accelerated or a delayed attack, for instance. This actually lowers the skill ceiling because forces you to gamble. Just like fake-out backswings were in chiv.

This sorta crap needs to go, we need drags, and I love big release times and I don't want to see them gone. But something must be done with the animations, it isn't even a matter of git gud imho, they are simply not conveying properly what is happening. Specially with stabs.

I never read ANYWHERE on this forum, any serious user suggesting something even close to remove drags, so this is not what is going on tbh. And when I saw people asking to nerf drags, was actually pointed towards the most ridiculous ones, that ends up making you have to gamble instead of react, because the animations are not clear in showing you that it is a delayed or a accelerated attack.

I find feints much easier to deal with then drags on this game.

Count 24 95
  • 21 Dec '17
 June

@vanguard said:
Idk what huge skill there is in just turning your mouse away from the direction that the attack is comming, or turn it into said attack, and why this is so much more skill based then feinting a riposte. There are problems with draggin alright, but I think they are animation related. A drag heavy fighting stile, while manageable to be fought against, it isn't fun at all imho with these animations we have right now because it forces you to gamble.

Not sure what your point was here and how it all relates to my post but alright.
Saying chambering is as easy is parrying? I'm not sure what to say to that honestly.
I never really mentioned problems with dragging in my post. Other than stab drags I like how the drags are currently.
Yes there are animation problems but these are in the works. Though after 400 hours of play I can say that the current animations are more readable than people think.

What fun there is in having to gamble your deffense technics because you can't know if its gonna be a accelerated or a delayed attack, for instance. This actually lowers the skill ceiling because forces you to gamble. Just like fake-out backswings were in chiv.

Everything you said here can be applied to parries as well. Unless that's what you were getting at in the first place?

This sorta crap needs to go, we need drags, and I love big release times and I don't want to see them gone. But something must be done with the animations, it isn't even a matter of git gud imho, they are simply not conveying properly what is happening. Specially with stabs.
I never read ANYWHERE on this forum, any serious user suggesting something even close to remove drags, so this is not what is going on tbh. And when I saw people asking to nerf drags, was actually pointed towards the most ridiculous ones, that ends up making you have to gamble instead of react, because the animations are not clear in showing you that it is a delayed or a accelerated attack.
I find feints much easier to deal with then drags on this game.

Pretty sure this whole thing was just a rant on animations, which is fair criticism, but was not the point of my original post at all.

Conscript 4227 5324
  • 21 Dec '17
 vanguard

Oh man I'm sorry, I should have quoted the man above me. This post of mine was directed to him actually. My bad, pls carry on with the discussion.

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  • 21 Dec '17
 wizardish

I disagree with most of the stuff here.

The 15% change is very subtle and only noticeable if you actively abused chiv-drags. It took me over an hour of playing to finally notice it - and it was on the enemy's end, not mine. A lot of people are saying it's a band-aid fix or a cheesy fix or some stupid shit, it's not. If you seriously notice it or it seriously hinders your play style, you are probably playing the game in chiv-mode (which this game has striven to remove since the beginning). A lot of the people who have complained about it being inconsistent tend to be those who crutched and abused those retard drags to the fullest extent.

I had one concern over the change: how would it effect team play, mostly target switching? I played around two hours of 2v2/3v3s tonight and it wasn't noticeable at all. Team play felt completely normal and I never had a weird moment where my swing was "connecting" during the last 15%.

I was a little bit shocked when I read about the 50ms chamber nerf in the patch notes, but I haven't really noticed that either. If anything I initially felt like chambers were easier than before. I think it's a step in the right direction because as much as I love chambers, they should require skill and shouldn't be the entire base of combat. I think the reduction in window coincides with the significant reduction of drags which is completely fair. If drags are buffed a bit, buff chambers too and vice versa.

I don't think riposte feints are an issue at all, maybe they are only because ripostes aren't chamberable. The window is incredibly tiny and therefore pretty readable. It does seem like a sort of random addition though, I agree. However, as I said, I don't really think they're that significantly powerful. They also cost a shit ton of stamina, obviously depending on what weapon you're using, but generally it ranges around 20 stamina per riposte feint. If you punish someone for attempting that (which is easy to do), they just lost a shit ton of stamina and potentially HP if you landed the hit. I must say though I have limited experience fighting them so far, only fought Stauxie (who was easy to punish) and a few others. (So with all that being said you could be completely right, my play time has been limited, but so has yours. If they are truly an issue though, I think making ripostes chamberable would easily solve the issue.)

You seem to have a negative perception of feints. This build was focused on reducing retard drags and making feints more viable. Feints weren't effective or used at all in prior builds (against good players at least). I don't think the changes are enough to make them the meta game, chambers will still be king, but at least feints are somewhat relevant now. Don't forget how readable this game is compared to chiv, even when ripostes start inside you and are super fast, it's not nearly as bad as chiv feints.

Count 671 1117
  • 21 Dec '17
 Zexis

@wizardish said:
I disagree with most of the stuff here.

The 15% change is very subtle and only noticeable if you actively abused chiv-drags. It took me over an hour of playing to finally notice it - and it was on the enemy's end, not mine. A lot of people are saying it's a band-aid fix or a cheesy fix or some stupid shit, it's not. If you seriously notice it or it seriously hinders your play style, you are probably playing the game in chiv-mode (which this game has striven to remove since the beginning). A lot of the people who have complained about it being inconsistent tend to be those who crutched and abused those retard drags to the fullest extent.

I call the change a band-aid because while I like what the change does to drags, it won't make sense to new or uninformed players that their swing, still in release, suddenly doesn't do damage. You'll rarely see it happen in duels depending on your play style, but that's not the point. Glancing blows need to be made more obvious visually if they're staying in because they aren't intuitive enough now IMO

only fought Stauxie (who was easy to punish)

oof

Mercenary 92 303
  • 21 Dec '17
 Stauxie

Ouch

558 1150
  • 21 Dec '17
 das

Something's really wrong when I can yolo gamble my way into beating Bob Sapp with cleaver and 88 ping.

My 1h riposte feints are unpunishable because they are locked out for so long. In fact, I punish them for trying to punish me. It's silly.

65 224
  • 21 Dec '17
 wizardish

@Zexis said:

@wizardish said:
I disagree with most of the stuff here.

The 15% change is very subtle and only noticeable if you actively abused chiv-drags. It took me over an hour of playing to finally notice it - and it was on the enemy's end, not mine. A lot of people are saying it's a band-aid fix or a cheesy fix or some stupid shit, it's not. If you seriously notice it or it seriously hinders your play style, you are probably playing the game in chiv-mode (which this game has striven to remove since the beginning). A lot of the people who have complained about it being inconsistent tend to be those who crutched and abused those retard drags to the fullest extent.

I call the change a band-aid because while I like what the change does to drags, it won't make sense to new or uninformed players that their swing, still in release, suddenly doesn't do damage. You'll rarely see it happen in duels depending on your play style, but that's not the point. Glancing blows need to be made more obvious visually if they're staying in because they aren't intuitive enough now IMO

You will never ever notice it unless you're specifically trying to use those types of drags. I don't think a new player is going to look 90 degrees to the left or right and just drag their mouse super hard (and if they do, they'll realize "holy shit, that's not working, I probably shouldn't try to do that"). The beauty in this change is that it targets those specific players (who use retard drags) without harming others.

I absolutely see what you're saying in regard to it potentially being confusing if a new player comes across that, but it would be so rare for that to happen to them, unless they watch a video of someone trying to do retard drags and then they themselves try to replicate it.

Duke 5134 11071
  • 1
  • 21 Dec '17
 Jax — Community Manager

Ok I've put some time in, this isn't a final review but more of a "first impression" so my thoughts might change, and this is really only about the hotly debated topics instead of the things everyone thinks are good, like hitstop on teammates.


Glancing blows -
Good, simply just a reduction in cheese with no other effect on gameplay. They allow a player to use the edge of their tracers to hit people off to their sides, but if you try being a ballerina the weapon bounces off. It only takes effect if you're playing like a cuck, tbh


15% strike tracer not doing damage,
Adjusted parry timings (400ms),
Adjusted parry recovery (+50ms),
Adjusted chamber (200ms),
Release duration increased by 25ms -

Kind of have to talk about all of these together but overall these changes are good, just needing a little tweaking. The offscreen tracers not doing damage is cool, but it does seem a little bit like a band-aid as others have said. Things would be visually and mechanically more consistent if the release was shortened in terms of the overall swing or arc - which I assume is coming with the animation update.

400ms for parries feels good, I think that a lot of people wanted there to be a little bit more of a timing requirement. The parries don't feel wonky or inconsistent when playing at a normal ping due to the parries themselves. I think that it's good that you can fuck up parrying too, parrying should be an easy skill to master but not something you're able to do 100% of the time without trying.

The longer parry recovery feels better, it seems like it's possible to get punished for panic parries or falling for feints more than previously.

Strike chambers from 250 to 200ms - the idea of this is good. It means that the new drags can get past chamber attempts without having to do insane drags, and falls under the "tightening up the game" idea I've talked about on stream. By reducing the extreme drags and making the timings tighter, you get the same end result but while actually looking at the person you're trying to kill, so this is a step in the right direction. This concept also applies to the increase on release duration which makes the game feel much more focused on keeping the dude you're fighting in front of you, which is nice.

The downside is that chambers above 60 ping feel really inconsistent, this is simply because the timing required + reaction time + latency coming into effect. Before, chambers were viable at sub-optimal ping, but now they feel like they're entirely too risky when you're playing at say, 80 or 90 ping. When I'm on my server at like 30 ping, they still feel great, but not so much when I go to a central US server.

I think a 25ms buff to the strike chamber window (200ms to 225ms) might make chambers feel more consistent at higher pings but be more or less negligible when playing at a competitive level of latency. Ideally, Marox could just clap his hands and make the netcode magically perfect but I think that (at least for now) a tiny re-buff to chambers would help immensely. I would also say that personally, I think chambers should be the best technique that you can use to stop an enemy attack, but you shouldn't be able to use them 100% of the time.

Duke 2160 3625
  • 23 Dec '17
 Huggles

@wizardish

It's a bandaid fix because the way the game is designed still gives massive incentives to do those chiv drags because otherwise defense is just way too easy.

Currently the incentive is to try to do the exact same drags everyone did before, just with tighter turns and more mouse movement towards the end. All it does is make it less consistent, but I do not feel compelled to switch it up, because the alternatives to chiv drags are just so easy to parry and chamber.

If the game perhaps was not so predictable with the limitations of morphing (restricted to same side), if the horizontal turncap wasn't so extreme (incredibly hard to shoulder hit consistently, can be dodged ridiculously easily) , and if windup for weapons with reasonable damage was not crazy slow, the instinct for chiv drags would be completely gone. Because the second someone telegraphs they are going for a dumb/extreme drag, you would run to the other side and hit them. That is the way to punish chiv drags. Make them nonviable in the flow and pacing of the game.

Right now defense is too easy, the bubble doesn't help that, nor does the new 15% thing. I'm not against either of those in principle btw, but the way the game is right now this is the lowest skill ceiling patch the game has ever had tbh. Pacing is crazy slow as well.

The only saving grace this game has atm is stab drags imho. If those get nerfed while everything else stays the same... I'm not sure how this will be a skillful game. It will just be all about stamina warfare at that point. "Whoever chambers the most wins the game."

Mercenary 167 377
  • 25 Dec '17
 Izıl

I noticed alot of complaints (including myself) that 1vX now is really weird with the glancehits. People fight multiple opponents and they drag the strike further to deal with a guy who is about to hit them BUT both drags are nerfed and if strike hits it just glances off without dealing damage, sad. 1v1 are aids too because its stamina warfare and some individual playstyles got limited hardcore by being forced to play in the same way being stamina warfare, parrygame and instahits.