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Current Issues

Knight 1366 1852
  • 14 Dec '17
 Trevz TheCuz

Should mention that auto feint to parry is faster than than just regular feint to parry because of a small animation window and not because you can't tap it fast enough.
Murux halp

Knight 3313 6811
  • 1
  • 14 Dec '17
 Bodkin

I'll agree especially with the final point that flinch lockout when taking damage needs a rework but for a different reason.

In 1vX, it's a pretty common occurence to get combo killed where you can't retaliate whatsoever with a couple guys hitting you in sequence during your lockout. You will keep getting hit with no ability to parry or chamber.

Its a very frustrating and lame thing to have happen. I suggest that attacks could be locked out when flinched, but parries are left free so as to limit the damage you receive. This would punish you for your mistake by forcing you to eat stamina damage, but allow you to defend yourself better against many agggressors after taking a hit.

3234 4264
  • 14 Dec '17
 Havoc

I'm not crazy, there's now proof!

Conscript 4564 6302
  • 14 Dec '17
 vanguard

@Trevz TheCuz said:
Should mention that auto feint to parry is faster than than just regular feint to parry because of a small animation window and not because you can't tap it fast enough.
Murux halp

Oh man you don't know how much I hate to have to use the auto ftp thing tbh. I feel like I lose a lot of control with it

Mercenary 1263 2304
  • 15 Dec '17
 TheKingInTheNorth

Throwing weapons flinching is not a problem in my opinion. I've thrown my weapon to stop a teammate getting 2v1'd many times and it's the most satisfying thing ever. Flinch the one that's going to hit him and buy time to come to his aid. It's a cool tool. Maybe I'll change my opinion when archery is added and projectiles are flying all over the place.

Also teammates flinching is very annoying, but I don't think it should be removed as it would be very counter-intuitive for the person you're fighting. He's expecting a flinch but you just get to attack. It would look stupid as well.

I agree pretty much 100% with everything else.

Duke 2266 4010
  • 16 Dec '17
 Huggles

I'd be all for a micro flinch for projectiles. Your attack stops but you can windup immediately after and still take initiative.

I only really suggest this because using throwables in close quarters is really fucking risky and when you pull it off it feels amazing but if pulling it off basically punishes you that would be pretty aids imho.

Tho ya, at the same time I don't want to really encourage point blank archery.

1315 2881
  • 16 Dec '17
 Monsteri

Light: damage and flinch
Medium: damage and no flinch
Heavy: no damage and no flinch
except headshot

Duke 2266 4010
  • 16 Dec '17
 Huggles

That would just make everyone go full plate. Team fights aren't fun when everyone is in full plate. You want to promote a healthy mix on the battlefield.

1315 2881
  • 16 Dec '17
 Monsteri

No it wouldn't. It would make plate torso very desirable, but you're forgetting weapons, perks, and utility items, all which will be desirable in a larger mode. You'd likely see more heavy plate users with no helmet - because it'd be worthwhile outside of just roleplay reasons. Possibility of skillful 1shots -> more fluid combat, better 1vX. In 3v3 and the like dedicated projectile mains will likely not be viable anyway, so you'll find healthy mix there as well.

Knight 3313 6811
  • 2
  • 16 Dec '17
 Bodkin

I highly doubt that utility items will be effective enough to counteract the ability to not give a dann about projectiles.

I would be able to consistently land headshots all the time when I was on my game in chiv, but that's going to be much more difficult here considering you can also just block the arrows and the leaning around is less capped

Personally I would think it to be much better if heavy armor just reduced the damage a lot without them using the absolute max tier archery equipment, but flinch was retained. Without flinch you need high damage to make archery even worth having on the team.

Honestly this suggestion sounds extremely similar to the "unfun bring a shield argument". Lol the whole team has heavy? Guess your loadout is useless mang, remember to bring an eveningstar next time bub

Its not hard to make anything sound like a good idea with good language and limitation of varying perspectives. Buzzwords like fluidity and skill in combat aren't going to hide the fact that you just simply don't like getting shot midfight. I don't either, but the fact they even landed a shot through a melee without hitting mates or a random swing knocking it away is enough to stomach the fact he did a good job imho.

Knight 697 1611
  • 1
  • 16 Dec '17
 das

It's about the lack of interactivity and retaliation that makes it feel unfun, even if it's technically balanced and skillful. Mirage at least had loud ass sound effects and glowing, slow projectiles.

Which is why maybe Mordhau should exaggerate the sound and visuals of projectiles. Crossbows should make distinct and exaggerated sounds even at far distances, kinda like an AWP. Arrows should glimmer and be very eye-catching, maybe leave a team-colored tracer with "flags" attached to the arrows.

Time Crisis and many other arcade shooters had their own ways of telling you that an incoming projectile was coming so you could take cover (or even shoot it away in the case of throwings axes and such).

39527_scr_5

Hypothetical perks I can actually see myself taking in lieu of plate or weaponry while still remaining selfish are:

  • Archery

  • Horse riding

  • Hmmm...

Knight 3313 6811
  • 4
  • 16 Dec '17
 Bodkin

The tracers on current throwables are already plenty easy to identify given they make a large cloud around it, that combined with a FFFFFFFFF sound of the arrow cutting through the air that is exagerated a little would be plenty easy to do while not ruining the immersion of it. The crossbow making an audible sound on shooting would also be welcome. Bows are quieter than crossbows but are by no means silent weapons when made powerful enough for war. That's a fantasy rogue trope with little basis in reality. A powerful bow sounds very oomphy and vibrates on release.

Flags on the arrows is pretty gamey though, not a fan of that idea to be honest with you.

I still fail to see how getting hit in the back is any more interactive than being shot. In either case it's hard to tell it is coming, but we don't get a big flashing HUD saying there's an attack coming from behind.

With big flashy things around projectiles, at a high level they just become useless, and I think you know that already.

On another note, having flinch on arrows wouldn't even be that bad so long as they removed the inability to parry while flinched. It already ruins 1vX melee too. Teammates hitting you in sequence during your flinch with fast attacks completely prevent you from defending yourself.

If you could still parry while flinched, you wouldn't get cheesed in melee after getting hit in the back, being still able of blocking an incoming attack. The same can be said for arrows. If you are about to get hit by a melee attack and a smart archer playing like he would in chiv shoots you to force that attack to hit you, he would quickly find that it does not work. He helped his mate out by hurting you, but you were still capable of blocking the incoming attack. With this, archers could flinch attacks to save people or reset engagements for their comrades, but they wouldn't ensure cheese kills with the flinch.

  • 16 Dec '17
 Bodkin
This comment was deleted.
1315 2881
  • 16 Dec '17
 Monsteri

@Bodkin said:
I would be able to consistently land headshots all the time when I was on my game in chiv, but that's going to be much more difficult here considering you can also just block the arrows and the leaning around is less capped

Chiv had far less cap on leaning and jerkier movement

Honestly this suggestion sounds extremely similar to the "unfun bring a shield argument". Lol the whole team has heavy? Guess your loadout is useless mang, remember to bring an eveningstar next time bub
Its not hard to make anything sound like a good idea with good language and limitation of varying perspectives. Buzzwords like fluidity and skill in combat aren't going to hide the fact that you just simply don't like getting shot midfight. I don't either, but the fact they even landed a shot through a melee without hitting mates or a random swing knocking it away is enough to stomach the fact he did a good job imho.

Loadouts soft countering each other is a normal and healthy thing in videogames. Is the whole enemy team using plate armor? Use aoe utility and light builds with blunt weapons to counter them. Is the whole enemy team using archers and other throwables? Use plate armor and 2h swords. This kind of cyclical countering is GOOD. What is NOT good is "enemy team using archers", "get archers to counter the enemy archers" type of balance, which just leads to way more projectile spam and a dead metagame.

And while yes, I don't like getting shot mid fight, it's not something I was trying to hide. Those buzzwords as you call them actually have very definite meaning: fluidity in combat comes from the ability to oneshot people, as with such a possibility you can quickly finish off one target and move onto the next one, without having to be tied up to a single opponent for ages because of high HTK. You can probably guess why this means better 1vX as well.

To make the archer's shot not feel completely wasted, it could deal 6 damage to stamina instead of health. Might not sound like much, but imagine 5 archers focus firing one knight - if they all hit their mark, he's going to be very low on stamina after a while. It's not something he can't combat though, it's not a death sentence he can do nothing about. It'll make fights harder for him and allow less mistakes, but he'll still have a fighting chance.

Also, you'd still have xbow and javelin which logically should penetrate plate armor. Both of these are short range low DPS weapons, however, so it'll still be fair to the melee players who have the opportunity to close the gap with projectile parrying.

Knight 3313 6811
  • 2
  • 16 Dec '17
 Bodkin

I really don't understand what more you want.

You have the ability to parry off of projectiles, getting active parry as a result in teamfights from it.

You have the ability of active parry's large hitbox to also parry projectiles for you

You have the ability to use "GOOD SOFT COUNTERING" by bringing a shield (that argument is the exact same as the one you are using above, it just comes from you, making you like it more)

You have the ability to use plate armor to reduce much of the damage you receive.

You have sway making shots more difficult

You have the passive protection of being in a big fight to protect you from random shots or even hurt the guy you are fighting.

etc etc etc.

Can an arrow be feinted or dragged to get past your defense? No? Well that means getting shot is entirely your fault, regardless of the interactivity or subjective "funness" of the act. In a 32v32 server, the only one where you would ever see 5 archers on a team, those 5 archers are taking up around 1/6 of that entire team. And you mean to say that 1/6 of the team is balanced if they only are able to deal 30 stam damage to you? Seriously man, you just can't make this shit up

An archer who is equally as skilled should be able to sway an engagement just as much as someone who is skilled in melee otherwise in 95% of cases, it is simply more economical and effective to have full melee

Your argument is literally "I hate archeru so if I wear heavy armoru ill be ok cuz fuk archers haha"

You can spice it up all you want to complain and say I'm wrong, but that fact still stands and the dumb archer mains who also use shitty arguments are doing the same thing you are, you just have a lot more backing than they do.

Who ever said the bows would function like high rof machine guns? Personally, I think it would be better if rates of shot were slow, but each shot was actually meaningful rather than being a backburner team tickebitch as you seem to want it to be. Furthermore, in doing what you ask, everyone would just use crossbows and javelins (even though the heavy longbows of the day have better penetrating capability than most crossbows, only the heavy mechanical ones being better), and I am quite certain that is not something you would want.

1315 2881
  • 1
  • 17 Dec '17
 Monsteri

I don't think you understood what I want, indeed. I don't want archers to be some useless pissant noob gratification class, I want them to be powerful - but they must have a hard counter. If the only counterplay to archers is more archers, it leads to a stale meta and is even worse for melee. You never want to have the only counter to X be another X, unless X is difficult to attain. In Mordhau you can just select bow and arrow and off you go.

@Bodkin said:
In a 32v32 server, the only one where you would ever see 5 archers on a team, those 5 archers are taking up around 1/6 of that entire team.

I don't want arbitrary loadout restrictions, that's a horrible way to balance the game. Archers just need a hard counter and you can allow people to play them as much as they want.

And you mean to say that 1/6 of the team is balanced if they only are able to deal 30 stam damage to you? Seriously man, you just can't make this shit up

Don't be dishonest. 30 stam damage on ~3s intervals is absolutely massive, not to mention some arrows will hit the head. Two of the five archers can switch to melee after a few shots and absolutely decimate him. Unless of course the knight vastly outperforms them, which is the point - give him a chance to fight, as he would have a chance against 5 melee players.

An archer who is equally as skilled should be able to sway an engagement just as much as someone who is skilled in melee otherwise in 95% of cases, it is simply more economical and effective to have full melee

Indeed they can and should be able to do this, but without a non-projectile counter the competitive games simply become about who has the best archer. This was the case in chiv. It was complete cancer. Archers don't contribute by raw DPS, they make the plays by picking off and bullying key targets. Think about it: one class can kill several of the approaching enemy before any melee is had without putting himself in any danger. That is incredibly powerful. Why do you think the spear costs 10 points to equip? Extra range gives you a lucrative advantage in a melee game, and with bows you have the range several times that of other players. Even if plate body was impervious to projectiles, you would still be able to massively influence the outcome of the battle before it even starts. Pick out the light armor guys. Or git gud and score some headshots. If you can't, you can always pull out your melee and negate the loadout counter.

Knight 3313 6811
  • 1
  • 17 Dec '17
 Bodkin

What you fail to realize is that someone who is shooting is someone who is not fighting, turning the 32v32 or 5v5 into 25v32 or 3v5 if they are not helping a considerable amount.

6 stam damage per arrow is not going to make up for the fact that you are essentially out of the fight until you disregard using the bow and just decide to go full melee anyway after putting your team at a disadvantage.

Hell, someone could make the arrows work in their favor by way of the 1vX mechanics like active parry. Getting an unexpected active parry off on your teammate for a free hit.

All I am saying is, with the numerous ways to weasel out of projectile dmg that we already have, making the damage really shitty is only going to make it useless.

Congratulations! You hit him without being active parried, knocked away by a random swing, hitting a teammate, or being snuk up on and one shotted for your low armor! Here is a free 6 stamina damage to reward your efforts.

It's simply not effective. You might as well just have all spears. Spear is effective not only because of its range, but because it has reliable, unmissable long-ranged damage that 2-3 shots anyone while chipping much of their stamina when you take cftp into account. All this, whilst being able to drag, feint, wear decent armor, and take the stamina away from him even if he defends against it properly.

An archer doesn't have those advantages, and all in all would be ineffective in comparison should it function like you say.

1315 2881
  • 17 Dec '17
 Monsteri

What you fail to realize is that teamfights don't happen in a small room where everyone spawns instantly. Before each engagement there is some time before the forces meet each other, and after that there is also time before the melee is in full swing. This is ample time to wear the enemy down, and if they have a good mix of light units you'll still be massively effective with the bow during the engagement. If they're mostly heavy armor guys, you'll just switch to your secondaries after the volley.

Also I find it really hard pressed for people to be intentionally riposting off arrows in a sprawling fight. If you're 2v1, you really should have pulled out your secondary a long time ago.

Knight 3313 6811
  • 17 Dec '17
 Bodkin

These are great hypotheticals but the reality of it is the farther an enemy is, the easier it will be for him to just parry your arrow. Especially so if he is not even fighting anyone. If their whole team ends up being full heavy, you could have brought a polearm instead and be more effective. You basically just gimped your team.

The problem with a theoretical argument is we can always make more theories up to counter the one the previous guy made. These are still important to have to help the dev team as they progress with ideas, but making really hard and abject statements is basically impossible without real data.

The problem is, the only real data we have is the cancer from chiv, which was too cancerous in many cases. So essentially, there is no winning or losing this debate until archery is released; we instead will continue to come up with hypotheticals which are derived from 2 very different sides of the same coin.

So we can continue to "riposte" each other's arguments, or we can leave it alone as we have both presented our points to the table and let the dev team and everyone else come to their own conclusions.

The only thing I will say is I don't know what you mean with the last sentence. I was talking about in a teamfight, shooting at someone a friendly is fighting to help him, but the guy seeing it coming to active parry riposte your teammate. If you mean that once the fight starts, the archer should be pulling his secondary out off the bat, then maybe. I do know from my experience in chivalry that this was not the case, the archer swapping to his secondary only to 2v1 someone after the engagement was sure as won (only after their archer was dead) or when he himself was already rushed. The reason being, that should he get 1 shotted, he gives the enemy the advantage immediately. The fact that you continue to act like a typical chiv vet assuming someone never played in the "precious comp scene" because you don't know their name is something that has been brought up time and time again here and is quite annoying.

Seriously, we should not give a single damn about any hours of chiv experience anymore, as we all saw that we were all very bad when we started playing Mordhau.

So please, we can talk without making that same fallacy over and over, the mechanics are going to be different in both aspects.

1315 2881
  • 2
  • 17 Dec '17
 Monsteri

Well I agree that endless theorycrafting will get us nowhere, but to be fair all your examples were hypothetical as well. My broader point is that I don't want archers to be restricted or useless, instead I want a hard non-projectile counter. Archers should be at their best oppressing light armor guys doped up on perks, picking off key targets, and softening the enemy before each engagement. They shouldn't be so powerful as to decide the whole match for their team, nor should they be so powerful that a mediocre player will have easy time killing a melee god.

Having plate be (mostly) impervious to projectiles is a logical fix to all these problems, and comes with multiple other improvements:

  • Completes the cyclical loadout metagame

  • Makes plate armor feel truly heavy and protective

  • Gives dedicated melee players an option to opt out of most projectiles

  • Makes heavy torso desirable enough to make forfeiting a helmet viable

I'm not a fan of wishy-washy bandaid fixes either; no plasma field against projectiles on riposte or attacks, no plasma field on RMB. Aim sway is also not gonna be in the last we heard, and there will be a crosshair.

@Bodkin said:
If you mean that once the fight starts, the archer should be pulling his secondary out off the bat, then maybe.

Yes.